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Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 11:32:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'Y')ep, having to give up that 3rd Rolls-Royce and the second chalet in Gstaad is a real pain.


As a German you get hammered by taxes like there's no tomorrow. If you are a well educated unmarried professional (not banker millionaire), you fork over 70% of your income. That is not good, because it begs the question, why work if you could get almost the same standard of living by being a unemployed social disfunct idiot?
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 11:37:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJ', 'W')e have a large financial gap within my own family as well. We have aunts, uncles, cousins and step siblings with no jobs, no homes, no savings, no assets, no investments and tons of past/current debt. They've blown every dollar they've ever made, blown every dollar they were ever given, sold/mortgaged every property they were ever given and blown every opportunity they ever received.

You make a good point. Some posters should please explain to me why the motivated hard working disciplined employee should pay for those folks decribed above through high taxes and wealth re-distribution?
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 11:53:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')why work if you could get almost the same standard of living by being a unemployed social disfunct idiot?



So I'm guessing the vast majority of Germans don't work, since it's just as comfortable being unemployed.

Here in the US, unemployed people get free houses, food, cars, medical care, and get paid for having extra children. So most of us don't work except the really good people who support the rest of us freeloaders.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 11:55:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')Some posters should please explain to me why the motivated hard working disciplined employee should pay for those folks decribed above through high taxes and wealth re-distribution?



Because they want to work hard and support everyone else from the goodness of their hearts (I guess).
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby VMarcHart » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 12:00:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'A')s a German you get hammered by taxes like there's no tomorrow. If you are a well educated unmarried professional (not banker millionaire), you fork over 70% of your income. That is not good, because it begs the question, why work if you could get almost the same standard of living by being a unemployed social disfunct idiot?
I don't know about that. I lived in Switerland, which has a similar tax code, and there was a huge difference between my net pay and standard of living and of those getting the social security checks. Further, not that I feel like we should work for free, but the sense of accomplishment means a lot to lots of folks.
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 12:03:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So I'm guessing the vast majority of Germans don't work, since it's just as comfortable being unemployed.

Here in the US, unemployed people get free houses, food, cars, medical care, and get paid for having extra children. So most of us don't work except the really good people who support the rest of us freeloaders.

I didn't say that. A wellfare system must be setup such that it encourages work, rewards the "good" behaviour (for the lack of a better word) and punishes the unproductive behaviour. That is a delicate balance which is not easy to find. At what point does a wellfare system become so unfair that on one side you have poor people rioting, or on the other extreme you have working people quit because it's easier to just "collect"? As with most questions in life, the best lies somehwere in the middle.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby VMarcHart » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 12:10:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')why work if you could get almost the same standard of living by being a unemployed social disfunct idiot?
So I'm guessing the vast majority of Germans don't work, since it's just as comfortable being unemployed.

Here in the US, unemployed people get free houses, food, cars, medical care, and get paid for having extra children. So most of us don't work except the really good people who support the rest of us freeloaders.
Indeed, Ludi!

Can somebody please teach me how I can get this awesome life-style without working?

Perhaps Lesko's still around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Lesko
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 12:14:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'A')s a German you get hammered by taxes like there's no tomorrow. If you are a well educated unmarried professional (not banker millionaire), you fork over 70% of your income. That is not good, because it begs the question, why work if you could get almost the same standard of living by being a unemployed social disfunct idiot?
I don't know about that. I lived in Switerland, which has a similar tax code, and there was a huge difference between my net pay and standard of living and of those getting the social security checks. Further, not that I feel like we should work for free, but the sense of accomplishment means a lot to lots of folks.

Switzerland has WAY less taxes than Germany. It also depends very much where in Switzerland you're since the bulk of the tax is local tax as opposed to federal.
All in all I agree there's job satisfaction. However there's a limit. And that limit is different for everybody. It is clear that with more and more wellfare you push more and more people over the cliff of "I don't give a rats ass about job satisfaction, I get more money without working".
If you make $100k and pay $50k in taxes and the lazy asshole next door lives on $20k wellfare. Does it bother you? Maybe not, you've got job satisfaction. What if you pay $70k in taxes and he gets $30k in wellfare? And he gets to hang out at the bar everyday while you work 10 hour days. Still don't bother you? There's a point everybody breaks.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby VMarcHart » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 12:29:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'I')f you make $100k and pay $50k in taxes and the lazy asshole next door lives on $20k wellfare. Does it bother you? Maybe not, you've got job satisfaction. What if you pay $70k in taxes and he gets $30k in wellfare? And he gets to hang out at the bar everyday while you work 10 hour days. Still don't bother you? There's a point everybody breaks.
It sure bothers me. It's quite discouraging actually. But if I earn today $100K and continue to do good work, there's a chance I'll earn $200K tomorrow, whereas the lazy bum will continue to receive $20-$30K.
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 12:35:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')There's a point everybody breaks.



At that point it would be evident taxes would need to be lowered. If taxes are too high in countries with high taxes, we should see huge numbers of people stop working in order to collect free living. Is that happening? I don't know if it is or not. Folks here in the US bitch about their taxes and all the swell goodies poor people get and I wonder why they keep working so hard. So far nobody has really answered my question why do they work so hard? I've never had a problem paying my taxes, but then I don't work very hard, not having a Protestant Work Ethic. I'm sure those who work hard and bitch about their taxes are better people than I am, otherwise they would not have such a strong ethic but would join me in reducing their need to earn and work less. Either they like working hard and bitching about taxes, or they would quit and get all the free goodies the poor people get. I still work for money, so I don't get much free stuff, but I don't have trouble paying my taxes like hard-working people do.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 13:04:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')f taxes are too high in countries with high taxes, we should see huge numbers of people stop working in order to collect free living. Is that happening? I don't know if it is or not.

There's a sweet spot of balance between taxes and wellfare. Where is it? I don't know. It's the point where the quality of life is the greatest for the greatest amount of people. And it's a function of purchasing power, crime, blight, perceived unfairness, economic activity and so on. It's a complicated spot. On one side you can have 100% wellfare. Nobody works and everybody collects. It is obvious this sytem wouldn't work for long. On the other extreme you have "who does not work, does not eat". Not good either because, perceived unfairness, crime and so worth would make life miserable even for those with high incomes.
There's no such thing as a thrershold, after that everybody stops working. It's a gradual shift. Increase taxes by 1% to pay for 1% more wellfare and you might get 1% more able bodies who decide to call it quits as life on wellfare is good enogh for them. Is the US striking a good balance?
I give you one example. We got high unemplyoment in our state. However local farmers have a hard time finding farm hands. Is that the way it's supposed to be?
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 13:11:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')local farmers have a hard time finding farm hands.



Are they offering a competitive wage? Either people don't want to work so hard at any wage, or the wage being offered is not competitive with either free stuff from welfare, or an easier job.

How much would you want to be paid as a farm hand, personally? If I were capable of farm labor and wanted to be an employee, I would want to be paid as much as I would be paid for similar hard work.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 13:17:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'o')r the wage being offered is not competitive with either free stuff from welfare,

EXACTLY!!!!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')How much would you want to be paid as a farm hand, personally? If I were capable of farm labor and wanted to be an employee, I would want to be paid as much as I would be paid for similar hard work.

I would want to be paid at least $250k/year plus paid 5 week vacation + 401k + retirement package. Unfortunately it's not about what I want to be paid. It's about the market value of my skills and competition.
Or asked the other way around. Are you willing to pay $50 per gallon of milk at the market to support my salary demands?
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 13:24:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '
')I would want to be paid at least $250k/year plus paid 5 week vacation + 401k + retirement package.



So you base your expectations of salary on what you want rather than what is offered in your field of work? That must be nice. :)

I'm not sure what your point is - I guess I can try to figure it out. You think people should not get unemployment benefits as long as there is any work available? Maybe? So if you (dsula) become unemployed, you should take a farm hand job even though that is not your field of work/profession?

Just not sure what it is you're saying, actually. :cry:

To answer your question, if nobody will produce milk for less than $50 a gallon, I'll either pay that amount or do without. I certainly won't coerce people into producing milk for me.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby dsula » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 13:38:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')I'm not sure what your point is - I guess I can try to figure it out. You think people should not get unemployment benefits as long as there is any work available? Maybe?

Yes that's correct.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')So if you (dsula) become unemployed, you should take a farm hand job even though that is not your field of work/profession?

Like everybody else, I will go the easiest road possible. If that road means I' allowed to wait for my dream job to come along and collect, I will do that. However if that is not possible, I rather take the farm job than starve. So do we have too much benefits? Looking at the US budget of medcare/SS and stuff it seems like it. And since we are broke the situation will self-correct in a couple of years.
I wish you a nice day and without sarcasm I say: GOD BLESS AMERICA, because we need it.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 14:23:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'D')o we all have to live like millionaires? What the hell would that do to the environment?

Give Joe 6 Pack a million bucks and see what happens. Bass boat, ATV, big box house, new truck.....


I don't think you understand what the Gini coefficient is measuring.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 14:24:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')I'm not sure what your point is - I guess I can try to figure it out. You think people should not get unemployment benefits as long as there is any work available? Maybe?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'Y')es that's correct.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So if you (dsula) become unemployed, you should take a farm hand job even though that is not your field of work/profession?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'L')ike everybody else, I will go the easiest road possible.


That's really interesting. You think people shouldn't get unemployment if there is any work available, yet if you, dsula, become unemployed, you will collect unemployment.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'S')o do we have too much benefits? Looking at the US budget of medcare/SS and stuff it seems like it.


But you will be happy to collect these benefits if you need to.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby VMarcHart » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 14:28:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'L')ike everybody else, I will go the easiest road possible. If that road means I'm allowed to wait for my dream job to come along and collect, I will do that.
So if you're like everybody else, why are you complaining about everybody's work ethics or lack thereof?

I'm not sure everybody follows that rule. Whereas I too want an easy job with a high salary, I am every satisfied with the work I do. I don't know if I'd pass on earning twice as much to be a beach life guard, but what I do covers most of all my needs and vices, even if there's easier ways to make more money.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby MarkJ » Wed 30 Dec 2009, 08:43:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') give you one example. We got high unemplyoment in our state. However local farmers have a hard time finding farm hands. Is that the way it's supposed to be?


As people have become fatter, lazier, out-of-shape, more sedentary and more indoor activity focused, some farm jobs, landscaping jobs, snow removal jobs, heavy manual labor jobs, dirty jobs and jobs which require working outdoors in freezing temperatures, climbing, repetitive motion, fast work pace etc are harder to fill.

Many people, especially people with safety nets, teens, college students and 20 to 30 somethings living at home with parents choose not to work if they can't find a service industry job with better working conditions.

Our local non seasonally adjusted unemployment rate fell to 6.3%, yet we talk with many non job seekers that plan on milking 99 weeks of extended unemployment benefits, or more if they extend benefits.

Businesses have been hiring, but many people have enjoyed time off, hunting, fishing, boating, camping, traveling, cruising, motorcycling, snowmobiling, ice fishing and/or they're doing cash side jobs, so they don't actively seek work.

Many former factory workers, mill workers and other good producing workers are waiting for good paying jobs which are never coming back.

What's sad is many of the people with a 2 year vacation haven't used their time off constructively. They could have used the time off to look for work, retrain, research, self-educate, learn new skills, exercise, improve their diet, get into shape, improve their homes, mow their lawns, organize etc.
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Re: Income inequality: comparing the US states to the 3rd world

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 30 Dec 2009, 10:30:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'I') would want to be paid at least $250k/year plus paid 5 week vacation + 401k + retirement package. Unfortunately it's not about what I want to be paid. It's about the market value of my skills and competition.
Or asked the other way around. Are you willing to pay $50 per gallon of milk at the market to support my salary demands?


In a closed system free market, the farmer would have to raise the offered wage until it's high enough to attract labor. Unfortunately, we're now living in an open system, global free market. This means there's no end in sight to the downward pressure on wages. Rather than raise the offered wage, the farmer just hires some illegal Mexican immigrants. If consumer demand requires more dairy than illegals can milk, then we go to the world market where it's a bottomless chasm of slave labor wages.

This little arrangement benefits the capitalist immensely, while giving the shaft to labor (you can't get higher wages when you're competing with tribesmen in Jakarta, or shanty dwellers in China or Brazil).

A global market is not really a free market, since the labor pool is infinite. In this paradigm, capital is free while labor is bound in chains.
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