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I want a dog.

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby dinopello » Fri 30 Mar 2007, 20:34:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'T')he dog's brain will never tire of the magical bouncing, rolling, hiding ball. But the human mind is over and done with it under 10 seconds.


I think you have limited experience with both dogs and humans if you believe this is true in general. Many dogs get bored with repetative tasks. And, I know humans that would play "pong" for hours and days and weeks on end. Blip, Blip, Blip...

Not every one of your points is completely devoid of merit, however. Not everyone is capable of properly raising a dog with the family. Perhaps, not most people.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby crapattack » Sat 31 Mar 2007, 05:54:19

BW, $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has been enormously helpful to myself in formulating and refining the idea, and I thank everyone for their input, argument, invective, and comment.


Perhaps you think you've near perfected your kill-your-dogs-eat-them-then-keep-something-as-a-keepsake-then-stuff-them argument. But somehow I think if you try to win people over with that one there will be plenty sniggering behind your back as you leave the dinner party to go to the bathroom. I for one am glad to contribute to that! You've given me plenty of laughs here in this thread, so I guess I must thank you :)

BW wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, I am arguing that there is something fundamentally wrong with it. I realize that sounds infinitely quixotic to most conventional thinkers. And as for research... ? Eh, who funds that? PETA?


I see, I'm quixoticified. So I'm not supposted to ask you for any actual evidence that, as you say, "dog owners are retarted" because they hang around dogs, because if I do that just means I'm too conventional to grasp the remarkableness of your thinking? Maybe the unconventional people don't need any evidence at all, we should just be wowed by the awesomeness of their..well, unconventionalness and take as red anything they say because they're, well, unconventional, and so above all that! But hell, we're just talking right, evidence smevedince.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')anging out with dogs is not the same quality of interaction as hanging out with a human.


It is not the same interaction, not worse, just different. And news flash. Most doggie owners get more human social interactions in a day then those who don't, and may actually be a bit healthier than non-doggie owners (see link below). We actually talk to each other in the doggie parks - and not just about dogs! And yes, we actually do recognize that our dogs aren't human. We know the difference. What I mean is, we're not looking for the same interaction with our dogs as we would from a human. To use your crude metaphor, we're not jerking off to our dogs while dreaming of being with a "real human". When I throw the ball for my dog I actually get some thinking done. Imagine that. A dog owner thinking...does that mean I can hang out with Stephen Hawking now?

Dogs are not a plague species. I would argue that from a planet perspective we are.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have just one response to this whole arm of conversation: WHO CARES?


You do kittycat! You brought up the who issue of doggie intelligence by comparing their smarts to ours by saying how much smarter we are then they are. We were merely going on about how wonderful our doggies are when you dropped in with your worms, parasites, poop and talk about how retarted dogs are and by association, us. I think you basically can't refute that brain size has very little to do with intelligence - it matters not that their brains are the size of lemons - so you try to wriggle out of the argument by dismissing it. But you keep bringing it up by insisting on stating that "of course humans are smarter" and how riduculous it is to state otherwise, when you know full well that I am arguing against the validity of the concept of intelligence when applied to other species than our own. I disagree that it is relativistic to say that a concept doesn't apply.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am simply saying that because we are the most powerful, we have the moral responsibility for making better, more informed, more comprehensive value judgments....there are ways to do this, but first we have to clean up our mess. That means culling excess populations.


It doesn't necessarily follow that simply because we are more powerful we have a moral responsibility to make better value judgements... we can simply choose not to exert our power by making value judgements of other creatures.

But I see what you're saying, you are of the sort that believes we have the power therefore we have the right to make value judgements, albiet of the most "moral kind". Right by might. Lovely. Too bad for the dogs and cats eh? And they shouldn't take it personally, you actually do love them right? What's next, babies? Babies can't hold a conversation and have an endless fascination with shiny things and rubber chew toys... obviously an intelligent person would be bored in 2 seconds flat! Babies poop alot and produce endless amounts of plastic diaper waste! Kill our excess babies! But we really do love them.

BW$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n this picture, I do see the desperate usefulness of the pet animal as a desperate last connection to something vital, Earthy, natural. Something to settle for. Its something to hold onto on the journey across the river Styx. But it doesn't create a hard, strong human. It creates a dependent, desperate addict. There is no honor in it during these "Last Days" of environmental and biological collapse.


Good grief! River Styx... are you for real? I'd definitely use that bit next time you wanna try out your argument for killing things. Anyhow, thanks for the larfs, my complex human brain (ha) is getting a bit bored now ;)

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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 31 Mar 2007, 16:21:09

Dogs encourage emotional spontaneity, which is lacking in our culture. We goof around with our dogs, and frankly, it's a relief to be completely silly sometimes. We connect with others in a more egalitarian way, when we're with our dogs too. We may not share other hobbies and be from different social strata, but the fact that we're walking dogs or playing with them, puts us on the same page. So what if that page is torn from Lassie, or the Littlest Hobo?

I don't think people who argue against the idea of pet or dog ownership realize how precious spontaneity is. We live in a society that is contrived, self conscious and inhibited. Anything that connects us with something more fundamental in ourselves, like a dog, is something to be really cherished. Of course, dogs aren't as natural as wolves, but they're as close as we can get. We don't have dogs to engage in Platonic dialogue, anymore than they hang out with humans to share a group sniff of something festering on the beach. Some things just can't be shared. My dog and I share a love for walking, exploring and singing. Yes, when I sing, she presses her face as close as she can to mine, and howls along.

I do understand many of BW's sentiments, and don't think he's completely out of line, but there is a strong argument to be made for responsible pet ownership, stronger than the one for not having pets.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Sat 31 Mar 2007, 17:03:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')Perhaps you think you've near perfected your kill-your-dogs-eat-them-then-keep-something-as-a-keepsake-then-stuff-them argument. But somehow I think if you try to win people over with that one there will be plenty sniggering behind your back as you leave the dinner party to go to the bathroom. I for one am glad to contribute to that! You've given me plenty of laughs here in this thread, so I guess I must thank you :)


I do not care about what people think of me. I enjoy making people laugh, even if they laugh at me. In real life I am fucking hilarious. So if your point is to demonstrate your own inability to seriously contemplate anything that you already assume to be true and good, then you're no different from most people. You've swallowed certain aspects of the mass-cultural mythology and have formed a thin crust of persona around them. Like a tree growing around its cancer cells to keep them from metastasizing. I am in fact seriously recommending you excise that before damage iis done. Of course, its probably too late for you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')BW wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, I am arguing that there is something fundamentally wrong with it. I realize that sounds infinitely quixotic to most conventional thinkers. And as for research... ? Eh, who funds that? PETA?


I see, I'm quixoticified. So I'm not supposted to ask you for any actual evidence that, as you say, "dog owners are retarted" because they hang around dogs, because if I do that just means I'm too conventional to grasp the remarkableness of your thinking? Maybe the unconventional people don't need any evidence at all, we should just be wowed by the awesomeness of their..well, unconventionalness and take as red anything they say because they're, well, unconventional, and so above all that! But hell, we're just talking right, evidence smevedince.


Yes! Exactly. Evidence Schmevidence. By the way, by saying that what I said sounded "quixotic" I meant that by analogy to Don Quixote. In the story he attempts to charge at and attack reality which he perceives as changeable. To most people, the "reality" of the collective assumptions about what is good or bad is unchangeable, immutable. It is the "Environment" in the classical construction of the human persona: "I am I plus my environment". The collective assumptions of everyone, while collectively accepted as far as good or bad, historically have been frequently repudiated and shown to actually be bad. One day, maybe 20, 50, 100??? years from now, some advanced society and culture (having survived species and habitat collapse) will view our relationship with nature in a radically different way that will render our current collective assumption about the goodness of pet ownership in a different light, much like Nazi culture's collective assumptions about the badness of Jews and Gypsies were overcome by the succession and evolution of ideas and moral awareness.

It might be important to point out that the Nazis came up with quite a bit of "Schmevidence" of the badness of the Nazis.

I hope to someday be able to change people's minds simply by using the dialectic, like Socrates. Language uses the structure of logic, and therefore you can prove things using language alone. The evidential reality of the what I'm talking about is not an invention, its what I observe. I try to be objective. I have had many pets. I have lived with many dogs. I am intimately aware of every aspect of the practice. Does that surprise you? What evidence would be sufficient?

The burden of proof, of evidence, in the question of broad moral dilemmas does not have the same weight as existential argument. The quality of the reasoning is only what is important. No one can "prove" the perfect answer to a moral dilemma. There is no argument which can be so perfectly constructed so as to make it impossible to not accept its conclusions. We are talking about the comparative analysis of assumptions. If you think something is good, say so and explain why, or the contrary. The value of such an argument depends on the ability of the audience to weigh each action, and make the very best determination. Moral dilemmas and issues are therefore a different class of inquiry than the typical existential philosophy.

I would say that people tend not to be good judges of moral truth, or really have any developed sense or perception of moral dimension in things. Our culture is one which promotes a very superficial interpretation of our day-to-day realities. This is a natural evolution of global capitalism. People in these societies are not brought up or conditioned to use their minds for anything other than their own-self interest. This is the celebrated social value that means that we organize thoughts and our morality around concepts which tend to gratify us, and that which does not is forgotten. Psychology had long known the tendency of people to "remember the hits and forget the misses". There is an allergic reaction that people have developed to "negativity". I call this the Doctrine of Positivism, and it is one of the chief cultural assumptions. It is basically expressed as a bias against anything that sounds remotely negative. Self-control, self-denial, sacrifice, all these values come perilously close to a concept of negativity. We are trained to see only "positive" things, think "positive" thoughts. Out high priests of secular "self-help" thought postulate that a form of this doctrine. Thus, we tend as a culture to accumulate, ignore or repress the negative, and reform as many negatives to positives as possible. This kind of bias, I think, hamstrings people's minds. They become less amenable to the kind of flexibility our lives are increasingly requiring. As far as the world's problems go, its clear that the correct course of action involves a lot of "not" doing. The question is, can people stop the constant positivist pressure of up-grading, continually seeking "happiness" and gratification? The consequences are the gathering storm clouds. Sooner or later reality knocks on your door...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')anging out with dogs is not the same quality of interaction as hanging out with a human.


It is not the same interaction, not worse, just different. And news flash. Most doggie owners get more human social interactions in a day then those who don't, and may actually be a bit healthier than non-doggie owners (see link below). We actually talk to each other in the doggie parks - and not just about dogs! And yes, we actually do recognize that our dogs aren't human. We know the difference. What I mean is, we're not looking for the same interaction with our dogs as we would from a human. To use your crude metaphor, we're not jerking off to our dogs while dreaming of being with a "real human". When I throw the ball for my dog I actually get some thinking done. Imagine that. A dog owner thinking...does that mean I can hang out with Stephen Hawking now?

Dogs are not a plague species. I would argue that from a planet perspective we are.

I would argue that they are in fact. If we are, by standard estimates, in excess of 500% of our sustainable population, then I hardly think it needs explaining that surplus people's pets are not surplus. What if 5.5 billion people diisappeared overnight and the remaining pets were distributed among the remaining humans? Every human on Earth would have 5 pets or something. Does it sound reasonable for 1 human have 5 pets?, or 20 pet animals to a family? Forget dogs, lets talk about the 900 million domesticated cats in North America. They functionally displace other predators. Feeding a predator animal gives them a phenomenal advantage in the first place against other predators. And so on, and so forth. Pets are an extension of this culture and society. They are a humanized influence. If you think we're a plague species, and dogs are not, your logic fails to follow though.

I have also hung out with other doggie owners at the doggie parks. I thought it was peculiar. I found nothing special about the interaction. Fundamentally, it still fits the profile of pet-as-surrogate. Pet-as-excuse for social interaction. Pet-as-X.

It took several months before the complaints started coming in. I guess when you get a bunch of dogs together on a public school playground, eventually kids start stepping in shit, and getting shit on their clothes and hands. This subject came up eventually and the hand-wringing dog owners chattered about being more careful and more poop was probably scooped. But the fact is the gatherings occured at night and 20 people talking to each other in the dark observing a chaotic collection of blinking, glowing lights zipping around made it impossible to scoop up all the fecal coliform, obviously. And I thought there was nothing really compelling about the chit chat among the group. Everyone had a different agenda. The woman who wants attention. The guy who iis looking to meet a woman. The guy with the "Beastmaster" complex. The eccentric old lady who knits the doggie-coat. The woman who brings huge quantities of treats so she can be the center of attention. My impression was that these are precisely the people who buy into the myth that having a pet will make you happy. Maxim probably has an article on why you should get a dog so chicks will think you're more groovy.

The fact is that it is the interaction with the other humans, the conversations, the dynamics between humans that the gathering engendered that was so good for the people involved. Ever played pickup basketball at the community center? Get together with the model rocketry and R/C plane people on the soccer field? Taken line dancing? Point is, there is nothing special about the pet aspect of social gatherings. The thing I found objectionable was how uniformly dull the conversation was. It was small talk, chit chat, and predominantly about dogs, which as you might expect.... *YAWWWN***

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have just one response to this whole arm of conversation: WHO CARES?

You do kittycat! You brought up the who issue of doggie intelligence by comparing their smarts to ours by saying how much smarter we are then they are. We were merely going on about how wonderful our doggies are when you dropped in with your worms, parasites, poop and talk about how retarted dogs are and by association, us. I think you basically can't refute that brain size has very little to do with intelligence - it matters not that their brains are the size of lemons - so you try to wriggle out of the argument by dismissing it. But you keep bringing it up by insisting on stating that "of course humans are smarter" and how riduculous it is to state otherwise, when you know full well that I am arguing against the validity of the concept of intelligence when applied to other species than our own. I disagree that it is relativistic to say that a concept doesn't apply.

I just don't care what you think about brain size, intelligence, etc. It doesn't mean anything to me. It is really and truly an uninteresting conversational subject. (It is incidentally a frequent subject at the dog park.... "Ohhh, this breed is so smart...", "That breed is not so smart"... etc. *YAAAWN***)

I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I will only say that if you think humans aren't smater than dogs, you're probably incapable of understanding anything I said. I typically assume that humans are the smartest species on the planet. I just don't think it needs justification for rational, reasonable people. I'm not using that assumption to argue some heinous point, like other, less smart animals should be arbitrarily enslaved... wait, thats the point you're trying to make... :P

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am simply saying that because we are the most powerful, we have the moral responsibility for making better, more informed, more comprehensive value judgments....there are ways to do this, but first we have to clean up our mess. That means culling excess populations.

It doesn't necessarily follow that simply because we are more powerful we have a moral responsibility to make better value judgements... we can simply choose not to exert our power by making value judgments of other creatures.

But I see what you're saying, you are of the sort that believes we have the power therefore we have the right to make value judgements, albiet of the most "moral kind". Right by might. Lovely. Too bad for the dogs and cats eh? And they shouldn't take it personally, you actually do love them right? What's next, babies? Babies can't hold a conversation and have an endless fascination with shiny things and rubber chew toys... obviously an intelligent person would be bored in 2 seconds flat! Babies poop alot and produce endless amounts of plastic diaper waste! Kill our excess babies! But we really do love them.

This is called a "Slippery Slope" fallacy. Just because I think the culling of pet animals is necessitated, does not mean that I am justifying killing babies.

You said,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t doesn't necessarily follow that simply because we are more powerful we have a moral responsibility to make better value judgements... we can simply choose not to exert our power by making value judgments of other creatures.

You're right, it doesn't necessarily follow that because we are more powerful we have moral responsibility. Moral responsibility is something you choose to take on. But thinking people, caring people, contentious people, do consider these things.

The question is whether or not humans can continue to exercise their power and abdicate moral responsibility. I maintain this is impossible and sooner or later will result in calamity. It is this calamitous result which seems to the reasonable mind that some moral consideration or deliberation might have well been in order before such power was exercised.

You can do whatever you want, make whatever choices, consider or not consider whatever, and be completely free of considering a moral dimension to anything and have a perfectly functional life. But that doesn't mean the consequences of the value judgments you inevitably will make, the power you will inevitably exercise in the world, will not have real consequences for you, for me, for society, culture, and the environment. They will and they do. Ideas have consequences. Currently there are a lot of negative consequences of the set of ideas that power everyday life. Some examination of those assumptions is in order, I think. Sometimes there is no smoking bullet. At the current time, I do not see pet ownership "shaking the foundations of society". But I do see it shaking the foundations of some people's sense of their own humanity.

I think you have to consider whether or not you are simply satisfied with your conclusions because they gratify your own ego. As such, they are nothing more than a filter through which you perceive the world. If your own gratification is more important than reality, you're solidly within the norm, and status quo on this issue. I don't believe that this specific issue drives the problem of the fundamental lack of insight and perception of our problems in being alienated and divorced from an authentic experience of Nature, but is a symptom of it.

Buddhism is a philosophy and religion which strives to make no value judgments. There is a lot to like a Buddhism. But I disagree with its precept that we should not make value judgments. Its motivation seems to be that making value judgments will inevitably make you "not happy". As I have already stated, my philosophy does not embrace a doctrine of unhappiness avoidance for its own sake. I believe we make value judgments. I believe that is a function of the mind and not altogether a bad function. It is precisely that function which makes us "smarter" than other animals. But it the wise exercise of that judgment which makes the difference between destroying everything or saving it. I maintain that much artifice must be destroyed, a position positivists tend to sneeze uncontrollably at.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')BW$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n this picture, I do see the desperate usefulness of the pet animal as a desperate last connection to something vital, Earthy, natural. Something to settle for. Its something to hold onto on the journey across the river Styx. But it doesn't create a hard, strong human. It creates a dependent, desperate addict. There is no honor in it during these "Last Days" of environmental and biological collapse.

Good grief! River Styx... are you for real? I'd definitely use that bit next time you wanna try out your argument for killing things. Anyhow, thanks for the larfs, my complex human brain (ha) is getting a bit bored now ;)

RE:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')http://www.webmd.com/news/20000215/live ... e-dynamics


Where s the article about the bum's life "Brightened by White Lightning"? Wheres the beef in this pro-pet propaganda masquerading as "news"? This is feel-good schlock for to stoke people's egos that what they are doing is the right thing. Kind of like the "Autos" section of the newspaper.

Here's a quote from an article released yesterday:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')"We've heard story after story of adult men and women breaking down on the phone because their child's pet has passed away," Edelson said.

The notion that pet owners are entitled to damages for emotional distress reflects what Katz calls a seismic shift in humans' relationship to pets that has occurred in recent decades.

Half of North American pet owners responding to a 2004 survey said that if they were stranded on a desert island, they would pick a dog or cat, rather than a person, as their sole companion. Almost half said their pets were better listeners than spouses, family members or friends, the American Animal Hospital Assn. poll showed.

As far as Katz is concerned, those human-pet bonds can be too intense. He's troubled by people who consider their pets "fur children" or insist that losing a pet is similar to losing a child.

"As the father of a child and a dog lover, I know it's not the same thing," he said.

From http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pets30mar30,1,7960868.story?coll=la-headlines-business&track=crosspromo

This is a succinct summation of the trend. We as humans are becoming ever more alienated and dislocated from nature and each other. This is my thesis. The world's people are sad, lonely, disconnected. Pets are friends, Nature, children, companions, even lovers. The bonds of pet ownership are stronger than marriage or partnership. The alienation worsens in the same way the alcoholic comes to depend on liquor as palliative or substitute for self-control or emotional equilibrium. And certainly more liquor would make him "happier". But I maintain this is not happiness but a pale imitation. I question your ability to be objective about it. You're like the alcoholic who comes armed with the whole suite of articles about how beer and wine are actually good for you.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby dinopello » Sat 31 Mar 2007, 17:04:32

I think I agree with you completely, threadbear. Although on wolves - I had a friend who lives in the mountains (or at least the blueridge) who at one time raised wolf-hybrids. I think they were often mostly wolf. I didn't think it was a good idea, and it may be illegal (due to the rabies vaccine not being approved for wolves). I haven't kept in touch with him so not sure but I think he gave that up. But, I was there about 12 years ago on the way to a canoeing trip and we camped out on his property with his wolf-hybrid and a few pups. It was a pretty interesting experience, one that I was very happy to have had. I don't think it is really right to own a wolf (even a hybrid) for a variety of reasons.

I think people and dogs have a very symbiotic relationship and I don't really see any problem- at least not as profound a one as BW seems to think exists.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 31 Mar 2007, 17:29:04

Dinopello, It is profoundly stupid to own a hybrid wolf. I got a darling 4 month old puppy from the pound many years ago. Unbeknownst to me, and likely to the pound, it was a wolf hybrid. It worked out, as I didn't have smaller pets or children, but it's not anything I would have ever done intentionally. It's a really silly idea. What are people thinking, when they breed these animals intentionally? It's not a wolf, but it isn't really a dog either. It's a fusion, a confusion, actually, to itself and everyone else, particularly other dogs, I'd imagine.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby Baldwin » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 01:01:41

Has anyone considered that owning a pet can gratify a person's need for meaning? Regarding self-actualization, we learned from Freud that we need pleasure (though this was mistranslated as sex at first), Adler told us that we required pleasure, and Frankl demonstrated that we needed meaning.

Being responsible and knowing that the life of the animal (and keeping the animal alive) gives people meaning in today's mundane world of deskjobs and morning coffee rations. People today indulge in false, short-lived pleasures, have no power (and are aware of it; some might have a sham of power), and cry out for meaning. A dog can help provide that. How else to pet shops perpetuate their business when a barking rat (chihuahua or terrier) costs $2000?

In my life, pleasure is dictated by how long I can play my bagpipes before my lips give out. I have absolutely no meaningful power/choice in my life, to the point where I am a doormat. I'd kill for a German Shepherd or a Siberian Husky. I want one so badly, but because of no power/choice, I am denied the pleasure of the dog's company and the meaning of living for something other than myself. Grandfather's statement rings true: Life's a pain in the ass, then you die. Atleast he had Onyx and Baron (two G. SHepherds) and their memories. WHen he dies (which hopefully will not be for another 25 years), he can atleast expire reminiscing about them. When I go, I will bear the memory of the cold, unloving foot of my bed.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby crapattack » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 03:27:05

BW, sounds too me that when you go to the doggie park you are as blinded by your distain for the entire interaction as we are by our love for our dogs. You certainly missed a lot in your boredom. My dog has enriched my life immensely, period. You see my perceptions as flawed - acusing me of being a junkie - somehow addicted to my dog *hic*. You see my pleasure as a doggie owner a fake by-product of that intoxication. I see your perceptions as flawed, you are addicted to being contrary to the "normals". Your self-identity seems to be wrapped up in seeing yourself as other/better than all us, when really all you want from us is to love you the way we love our animals. You're starving for attention and jealous of our affection to a life form you consider lower. You'd like to kill those animals because you can't stand that we might enjoy their company more than yours. Admit it. You are a deeply insecure and disturbed person BW. I do hope that someday you allow yourself the pleasure of loving an animal.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') will only say that if you think humans aren't smater than dogs, you're probably incapable of understanding anything I said.


I've never said this. I've argued that the concept doesn't really work and that for all we know you can't prove that dogs aren't as smart. I do understand your argument, I don't agree with it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') typically assume that humans are the smartest species on the planet. I just don't think it needs justification for rational, reasonable people.


Exactly, you do make that assumption, why? I think you make it because you like to discriminate against animals and want to recruit other people to your cause. You don't think your belief that we are smarter requires justification because you are trapped into the convention of the species pyramid you were fed in grade-school. The judeo-christian hegemony with humans as lord/master. You want to believe this because it is comforting to you to feel superior to animals.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')less smart animals should be arbitrarily enslaved... wait, thats the point you're trying to make...


Pardon me? I've never said that, at least never intented to.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is called a "Slippery Slope" fallacy. Just because I think the culling of pet animals is necessitated, does not mean that I am justifying killing babies.


I was joking but being a little snide too. Exaggerating for the sake of effect. But hell, following your logic, why not? I mean they are less intelligent than we are, use up far more resources than dogs and cat, produce much more waste, and we have overpopulated the planet so we don't need so many replacements. I mean why are you just focusing on the dogs and cats? I think you hate dogs and cats and are trying to couch your points in some gobbly-gook psuedo-philosophy to try to make the idea of exterminating and stuffing them all sound reasonably valid.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou're right, it doesn't necessarily follow that because we are more powerful we have moral responsibility. Moral responsibility is something you choose to take on. But thinking people, caring people, contentious people, do consider these things.

So you think that it is the moral action of "thinking caring people, contentious people" to exterminate the planet of dogs and cats? BTW I did catch your veiled insinuation that unless I don't consider killing the animals I'm not a thinking caring person.... get real! (ha ha!)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut I do see it (dog ownership) shaking the foundations of some people's sense of their own humanity.

Yes, it teaches them to care for something other than themselves, to have compassion for other beings, have some spontaneous fun and get some exercise while doing it. Horrors!
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby davep » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 04:47:52

Could sombody give me a quick overview of BW's position? I didn't fancy ploughing through the reams of posts.

Is it safe to assume he's more of a cat person?
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby NWMossBack » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 12:56:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'C')ould sombody give me a quick overview of BW's position? I didn't fancy ploughing through the reams of posts.
Dig in and enjoy man! You wouldn't settle for the Cliff Notes versions of Shakespeare would you?
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby mercurygirl » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 13:44:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'I') would say that people tend not to be good judges of moral truth, or really have any developed sense or perception of moral dimension in things. Our culture is one which promotes a very superficial interpretation of our day-to-day realities. This is a natural evolution of global capitalism. People in these societies are not brought up or conditioned to use their minds for anything other than their own-self interest. This is the celebrated social value that means that we organize thoughts and our morality around concepts which tend to gratify us, and that which does not is forgotten. Psychology had long known the tendency of people to "remember the hits and forget the misses". There is an allergic reaction that people have developed to "negativity". I call this the Doctrine of Positivism, and it is one of the chief cultural assumptions. It is basically expressed as a bias against anything that sounds remotely negative. Self-control, self-denial, sacrifice, all these values come perilously close to a concept of negativity. We are trained to see only "positive" things, think "positive" thoughts. Out high priests of secular "self-help" thought postulate that a form of this doctrine. Thus, we tend as a culture to accumulate, ignore or repress the negative, and reform as many negatives to positives as possible. This kind of bias, I think, hamstrings people's minds. They become less amenable to the kind of flexibility our lives are increasingly requiring. As far as the world's problems go, its clear that the correct course of action involves a lot of "not" doing. The question is, can people stop the constant positivist pressure of up-grading, continually seeking "happiness" and gratification? The consequences are the gathering storm clouds. Sooner or later reality knocks on your door...


This is pretty much it, I think. He should write a book, if he hasn't already.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby joshua » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 14:28:28

Well, I used to breed and train wolf-dog hybrids, and that's my suggestion for a post peak dog, is a good, wolf-belgian sheepdog mix. If you get them as cubs they are just unbelievably loyal, near-human intelligence (no exaggeration, here), and natural born hunters, so good that you will probably be able to depend on them for a food supply.

My pal Ralph was 90 pound belgian-Grey wolf cross. He stood about 2.5 feet at the shoulder, and had HUGE feet, and a head the size of my own (I'm six feet tall, so figure). He understood about 500 words of spoken english (no lie) , and could actually growl a few words like "Out" and "I want it" back at you.

I spent a lot of time in the woods back then. I had a beat up old toyota corolla wagon, and a lot of friends in Vermont. My Dad is a wilderness survival expert, and I'm certainly no slouch. If you buy the national audoban society field guides to edible plants and funguses of north america, my dad took most of the pictures in both. Look for the ones marked "nybg" (new york botanical gardens) and those are my dads.

Ralph quickly learned which plants and mushrooms I liked, and the minute we'd hit the woods, he'd find them. I never had to hunt for anything. He'd locate deer paths instantly, and since deer eat what we eat mostly, every thing I was looking for would be there. If I started to walk past, say, a big crop of Oyster mushrooms or chanterelles, he'd stop me and alert me to them. In a given couple hors, he might kill a dozen or so rats, dozens of field mice, and any other small game available. He could easily hit a top speed of about 40 miles an hour, and sustain it for several miles, jump a six foot fence from a standing start, and tunnel down as much as six feet in under an hour.

He was also very sensitive to my moods, totally attentive to me, and totally protective of me. He was one of the best judges of people I've ever known. I trust his instincts more than my own.

They're not for everyone. It helps if you've had a german shepherd or other large, aggressive dog, as you will have to stand up to them a few times in their adolescent years, when like most teenagers, they will challenge you (this is where the myth of turning on you comes from) for leadership of you little two individuals pack. YOu'll need to win at least a couple of wrestling matches, which can be difficult since they have fangs and you don't. I usually settled any teeth baring challenges by doing a snarling, growling rant about the reality of thumbs versus fangs, and his brain being the size of a golf ball while mine was the size of a grapefruit. It didn't matter that when he was that young (18 months. 12- to - 18/24 months is the crisis point in training of males) his understanding of language was too limited too really understand my words, what mattered was that I was obviously confident of my ability to over power him. I believed what I was screaming about, so he did. I only had to actually prove it once.

They definitely have issues. They cannot be left tied in your back yard, they require frequent, preferably daily, contact with their own kind (other big canines, preferably hybrids or at least "primitive" breeds like malamutes and shepherds) , and they need about 4 hours of hard exercise a day. They are also chemically sensitive and have to eat either organic dog food or wild prey or home cooked kibble. Granted, organic dog food will be non-existant post-peak, and home cooked food of any kind will be precious, but if you are going to have to hunt a bit anyway, wild prey will be damn near easy with a 100 pound top predator at your side. These guys are , after all, the top of the north american food pyramid in ways we only wish we were. If you can afford a couple of them, you are home free. Even a grizzly will not challenge 3 or more wolves, and one on one, a mature hundred pounder can kill an average 160 pound human with ease.

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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 15:05:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')BW
Quote:
In this picture, I do see the desperate usefulness of the pet animal as a desperate last connection to something vital, Earthy, natural. Something to settle for. Its something to hold onto on the journey across the river Styx. But it doesn't create a hard, strong human. It creates a dependent, desperate addict. There is no honor in it during these "Last Days" of environmental and biological collapse.


Good grief! River Styx... are you for real? I'd definitely use that bit next time you wanna try out your argument for killing things. Anyhow, thanks for the larfs, my complex human brain (ha) is getting a bit bored now Wink


I feel I should explain what the river styx metaphor is. I don't think it is inappropriate to illustrate life by analogy to the journey across the river. Life abounds with certainties of unpleasantness, pain, confusion, alienation, loneliness, isolation, trauma, challenge, trial, and so forth. At the end is death and in between is a journey. How do people cope? Drugs, sex, sports, material things, pets... Psychologists know that anyone is happier and more likely to overcome personal psychological problems if they "throw themselves" into something, like AA for instance. People give themselves over to things for comfort and shelter from existential uncertainties. There is nothing necessarily wrong with this, but seems true to me that some things are better than others. Unfortunately, like drowning people clinging to liferafts, the particular liferaft one clings to becomes harder and harder to let go of or consider objectively the longer one is used to it.

I think an unhealthy attachment to cars or other material, "Dead" things function the same way as animals. Animals though, forge that "pack" bondage with their owners that sets the relationship apart from the world of inanimate objects and things. When I think about the impact of being obsessed with cars, and the environmental impact of that practice, it is clearly destructive in many ways. But it does not (for most) supplant the biological, emotional need for human contact.

When the Dr. spoke about being troubled by the example of people preferring pets to people, I think that is a fundamental denigration of the human experience. No matter how you slice it, it is a compromise. It could be debated whether or not pets are better than people, but only people that cling to the idea that this kind of interspecies bondage and have some sort of psycho-emotional investment would take it seriously. Am I biased to hold the primacy of human relationships over pets? I think maybe so, but then again, bias and value judgments are also something I consider useful and admit to making them. I believe it makes me more aware of the human condition, by being more human.

I think, for me, it breaks down in the details between the two. In the human-human relationship, there is a more even match of emotional and intellectual capacity. There is also no ownership paradigm. It just makes sense that such a relationship couldn't be comparable and those that do think it is strike me as very sad people.

What about the human-human bond between parent and child? What if the human incorrectly interprets the relationship between child to be like that of a pet? What kind of expectations would be similar? Am I being ridiculous? What of the frequent emotional distress of human parents whose children achieve emotional and mental parity? A child grows up, mentally and emotionally. A person who believes in an equivalency of pet and human relationships, that is, someone who seriously compares the two, might possibly interject the human relationship with the pet/owner paradigm. I think that many people fairly believe that they "own" their children. They "train" them. Sometimes I see a plaintive look on the face of a kid riding in the back seat of their parent's car, much like that of a dog's expression. I wonder if there might not be a fairly large proportion of the population that learned or came to believe that raising children was a similar exercise to raising a pet. After all, the justifications for pet ownership frequently propose that the practice teaches similar-sounding values and techniques to what is considered. People "raise" puppies. It is clear they are surrogate children for many people. They talk to them in little boo-boo-baby voices. But like Mercurygirl said, what is the substance of the frequently heard comment by the pet-owner, that pet ownership is somehow preparatory for raising a human being, when we know that the comparison is only superficial?

I also said there probably are exceptions. Some human-animal or even pet relationships are "extraordinary". Seeing-eye dogs, horse whisperers, and so forth. But the exceptions make the rule. Most pet ownership relationships are not extraordinary. I think people are seeking the extraordinary when they decide to get a dog, but the vast majority do not, ever, establish some sort of extraordinary connection. The quality of psycho-emotional bondage with a pet is considered extraordinary by people who are simply anthropomorphizing in completely conventional ways. Recent studies on narcissistic tendencies, where 8 out of 10 people agreed with such statements as, "I am a very important person," resonate with my observations of people. They tend to believe they are special. How much easier would it be to believe that one's relationship with a pet is special, or extraordinary? I maintain that most pet owners do not and cannot achieve extraordinary pet relationships, in the same way that there are very few extraordinary painters. The belief that we can all attain the extraordinary creates enormous amounts of bad art, created by people with no talent whatsoever. The amateur artist believes in the extraordinary qualities of his creation and is egged on by a society and culture which uncritically reinforces a social doctrine of making people feel special and protecting their feelings at the expense of objectivity or reality.

I am saying that most people look fat in those pants. Extraordinarily fat in those pants, to be precise, in a cultural milieu that assures people that they most certainly look wonderfully not fat, anything but fat, in those pants.

Sometimes it staggers me how far people will go in funneling perception in a way that avoids what they don't want to hear. Famous experiments prove that people seem to selectively ignore voices that don't jibe with their prejudice. Findings like this one about people preferring pets to people, to me, is extraordinary. If pet ownership was a simple thing, a trifling matter, an indulgence by a select elite (which it once was), I wouldn't think much of it. But the extent to which it has permeated and usurped the normative, disrupted value scales, and seemingly impaired judgment, it has become a significant indicator, to me, of the extraordinarily fucked-up state of humanity today.

My focus on moral philosophy boils down to the fact that I think that most people do not have strong moral precepts or principles. I think the connection between a deteriorating natural environment is implicitly linked to deteriorated moral and ethical principles believed by people. These principles foreshadow the value judgments people inevitably make which manifest in behavior and action, or expressions of human power. If the principles are debased by a social philosophy that holds self-interest as the greatest virtue of all, that really has evidential consequences. Likewise, if the virtue informing the principles is something like, "Nature does not exist for our self-gratification", then the congruent behavior and actions will reflect that. Of course, one needs to also hold a principle which values such principles. But none of this is really taught to children. The mass of people are, as Carl Sagan realized, superstitious, illogical, unprincipled people, who "believe in absurdities". Therefore absurdities abound. The true character of the principles and values are found in the extant traits of a population or actions of an individual. Owning pets, like owning a Hummer, or dumping used motor oil in the ground, are all moral choices. A little backtracking can find the true principles behind these choices.

A person might say they believe in "protecting the environment", but they release 20,000 lbs. of carbon dioxide a year in a work commute. Therefore, you have to conclude they hold a higher principle. What is it? It is the principle of their own exceptionalism, maybe.

I think the more information gets released and disseminated, the more people will be internally conflicted. If someone believes in "protecting the environment" and suddenly knows what the actual impact is, then they are in the grip of a moral dilemma. The mechanisms of ego defense kick in and the selective interpretations, extraordinary excuses, and other perceptual tricks kick in. I think more and more people are forced by facts and reality into their inner worlds, their malaise. It is a crisis of valuation. If people cannot shift their thinking, if people do not know how to alter and play with the conceptual tools that form the basis of their reality-making apparatus, if they are not trained in logic, or understand the ramifications and primacy of valuation judgments, their minds and personalities harden. Unable to bend or flex or change with new information, they fissure and crack under the pressure.

People end up becoming very fearful and reactionary toward new concepts and information because their personalities are built upon a foundation that they are too egoistically invested in. If you add in all the environmental strains of the culture, the daily stresses, toxins from the environment they feel but cannot understand, the failure in practice of their everyday lives and practices, you end up with a very fucked-up mind. I think people start "flying on autopilot" after a while. What was once volition and self-determination becomes the continual expressions of defense mechanisms masquerading as the competent adult human, mature and in control of their destiny. No. The fact is that the fundamentals have been horribly distorted and the culture's stratified population is running on reformed vapors.

Who doesn't think this in an age where the realization of the widespread, subtle poisoning of the environment, with the record rates of emotional and mental disturbance? Only people for whom reality is an exercise of selective interpretation.

Garbage in, garbage out, saith the computer programmer. The principles must be restored. People must value virtues. They must be able to ask the important questions. They have to be logically capable of understanding in an abstract-to-concrete way. And they have to be reconnected to an authentic experience of humanity and nature.

We have to smash the idea that pet and human relationships have any equivalence. We have to smash the idea that people whose value systems are horribly distorted and contradictory "might be right" in an equivocating, relative way. In short, we have to start slaughtering sacred cows while disarming ego-defense mechanisms. Otherwise, I see the ticking time bomb goes off and its 2050 and there is no food, no nature, and way too many people, and its back to the stone ages with roving gangs of pet-owning religious fanatics.

I'm sitting here in a coffeeshop observing the doting mothers of disaffected surly boys outfitted in brandname clothing feeding on a sugary treat loaded with hydrogenated oils, next to a fireplace fired with natural gas in front of a view of a freeway overpass and a car dealership with the sun glinting off a thousand rain-washed cars all zipping around, doing absolutely nothing of value. The kid's parents sit in front of him, kind of looking like kids themselves. The kid drinks from his huge paper travelcup. He looks the very picture of unrestrained indulgence. I wonder if he has a puppy or guppy at home, vegetating until his return home.

Now I'm observing the behavior of the un-fucked up, little 1-2 year old girl. She makes eye contact, curious, expressive. It occurs to me that no one has yet inflicted on her the poisoned principles of pet ownership or the malaise of moral insolvency. She practically fearless in relation to her hunched, suspiciously inward mother who judiciously sips her huge drink and looks at her watch. There is no interaction. Her other child, a boy, is equally curious about me with wide eyes and tentative smiles. I wonder why this is, I wonder if it is because so many children are raised without their fathers. The little girl suddenly says, "Dada" and points at me.

I watch a woman interact with a 5 year old boy. Her body language alternates from supplicative to flirtatious. She asks him a question, strokes his hair. He looks bored. He doesn't want to answer or doesn't know how. He is being asked to choose something. I have noticed that many parents seem to believe that it is important to ask their kids lots and lots of questions. I have also noticed that kids don't like it, it confuses them. I surmise this is because it is ridiculous- the adults are the people who should know the answers, and the kids the ones asking the questions. But it occurs to me that this dynamic exists because the adults do not know the answers. They believe in an equivocating reality. For them the principles and values they believe is necessary to succeed are the ability to prefer things. That they are very, very important people.

The mother dispenses a continual barrage of manipulation on the child. Yes, I will approve of you. No, I might not, unless you answer this challenge correctly. Very good, I hold you in esteem. Okay, thats long enough, I will ask another question to challenge you. No, that is not the right answer. No, not that one either. Let me tell you now. Okay, I still like you but will withhold affection momentarily. Now we will take a break. We will sit here talking about nothing in silence because I need a break and want to drink my coffee.

I understand where people would prefer a pet, but it is a kind of damage. It is a compromise. I think it is vital to restore human relationships to vitality and primacy. It takes a lot of personal time, time we don't have to waste on pets. The return on investment in ourselves and other people is far, far greater than the ROI of time invested in a pet.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby crapattack » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 15:21:29

Davep, BW's position:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y position is simply that there should be no "ownership" of animals. No "Dominion" in the Classical Judeo-Christian sense. That the alienation expressed in people be addressed in respect to original causes. Humans more than ever need each other, and real, authentic connections to nature. We do not need "stand-ins" for other humans, surrogates for nature. We need authentic and vital lives, and we need to let go of and diminish our exclusive and reductionist practices of interaction with animalia, a new respect and perspective. Once you attain that, the alienation goes away. Canis lupus familiaris can be released from bandage back into the wild to live their meaningful lives as members of a community, without an emotionally retarded quasi-human chaperone who selfishly abuses its sensibility by burdening it as the object of a parasitic, unnatural relationship.

....

It follows, logically, that a human who uses a pet to stabilize his/her mental health is probably in need of professional psychiatric help. Enlisting a veterinarian, instead of a psychologist, may illustrate how far gone the former human being has devolved...

....

My suggestion is to convert your habit into something that grows rather than consumes the life-energy of your existence. Cull the animal, eat its flesh, and celebrate your position in the web of life. Skin it and make a keepsake or some shoe leather and bury its remains to push up daises and mushrooms. Then pat yourself on the back and embrace your necessarily human condition. Acquaint yourself with your place in the web of life and accept its responsibilities. Then the vicissitudes of life as a human will take on a noble, just feeling making you immune to the base occupations and addictions of your earlier subjugation.


Voila! I'm going outside to play in the fresh air and sunshine :)
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby Baldwin » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 16:53:13

Let's combine Joshua's post and BlisteredWhippet's post (I just love the thought of that stalwart Indian lecturing us on the failure of society). I digress in that parenthetical expression though.

Joshua sees certain kinds of dogs that serve a purpose to home and hearth. They provide food, wprotection, and judging from the tone of the post, a sense of emotional well-being.

BW sees pets as a syptom of a society bent on feeling good that lacks thought (drastic oversimplification I know).

Joshua is clearly discussing work dogs like spitzes, shepherds, etc. While I haven't seen it expressly mentioned in BW's posts, I can only guess by his disdain that he refers to designer dogs like poodles, terriers, spaniels, and those other barking rats the sheeple love.

I equally hate those useless breeds that lay on the couch receiving a steady stream of well-meant but ultimately dangerous treats. I'd much prefer a German shepherd or a husky. They need a greater investment of the owner's time, they need more food, but atleast I can count on it to provide me with food (if I train it correctly) or for protection if I need it. Do you think my cousin's silky terrier (which weighs all of 10 pounds) could catch small game, scare off an intruder, or God forbid fight off a determined intruder?
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 02 Apr 2007, 14:32:46

The husky is the very ultimate in useless breeds, for 99.99 % of the human population. Cripes, they don't even use them on the Iditarod, anymore. They are poor watchdogs, can be dangerous around screaming babies (high prey drive, but it doesn't mean they will hunt for you) They wander and won't come when called. They shed all year long and in Spring they "blow their coats", which, is a joy anyone but those who enjoy obsessively vacuuming, should be spared. They're diggers and will gladly turn your yard into a crater laced moonscape, given half a chance, and are just as likely to do this to your couch, if left alone. Many of these habits accompany life in the far North,where they dig into the snow to escape high freezing winds, and in the summer dig into the dirt to excape the heat.

There is so much garbage out there about what dogs are useful. If you want a dog to hunt with, get a field bred hunting dog, but understand they CAN'T be left alone. They are bred more than any other dog to bond very tightly with their masters. They are more highly spirited than a typical purebred, and seeing as they're not bred almost exclusively for looks, they often don't even resemble the AKC standard-- English setters a really good example of this.

When my wolf hybrid "challenged" me, repeatedly, beginning around 6 months of age, I would just flip him on his back, hold him in place and scream into his face for a few seconds. I only had to do it 4 or 5 times, and he quit challenging me after that. But noone should have to do this with their dog! I can't imagine how scary it would have been to have been body slammed by a full grown hybrid with teeth barred and fur flying. Again, what are people thinking? This is worse than useless, this is actively courting disaster, based on sentiments about nature out of a kitschy films like "Grizzly Adams".
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby Baldwin » Tue 03 Apr 2007, 18:28:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he husky is the very ultimate in useless breeds, for 99.99 % of the human population. Cripes, they don't even use them on the Iditarod, anymore. They are poor watchdogs, can be dangerous around screaming babies (high prey drive, but it doesn't mean they will hunt for you) They wander and won't come when called. They shed all year long and in Spring they "blow their coats", which, is a joy anyone but those who enjoy obsessively vacuuming, should be spared. They're diggers and will gladly turn your yard into a crater laced moonscape, given half a chance, and are just as likely to do this to your couch, if left alone. Many of these habits accompany life in the far North,where they dig into the snow to escape high freezing winds, and in the summer dig into the dirt to excape the heat.


You say that, yet we have dachsunds, pomeranians, afghans, poodles, the voluminous terrier breeds, chihuahuas, and beagles.

The Iditarod is about speed, like many races. When cars fall out of use, either human or animal labor will be used. In the stripmall I live in (LI, New york), a husky is as close to a pack-animal as it gets. I also am drawn to the energetic nature of the breed...ie they are like a personal trainer.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby davep » Tue 03 Apr 2007, 19:23:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')...

It follows, logically, that a human who uses a pet to stabilize his/her mental health is probably in need of professional psychiatric help. Enlisting a veterinarian, instead of a psychologist, may illustrate how far gone the former human being has devolved...


Surely having a pet is far more sensible economically than paying a shrink.

So, what happens to the poor pets when BWs utopia comes to pass? They'll all be culled. I'm sure they'd thank BW for this enlightened move.

What's wrong with accepting we're imperfect and rely on relationships, be they with humans or animals (no sniggering at the back)? We can't help being born human. I feel that BW's rationalist mindset is probably the more likely to require the help of a shrink in the long term.

Edit: we've just bought a Maremma Sheepdog. It's use is three-fold. Firstly it will be used for the farm to protect the herd (we're thinking ahead here). Secondly, it will help my daughter get over the death of her last dog (who kind of replaced her sister). Thirdly, I knew buying a puppy would help bring my wife out of the long term depression/grief caused by the death of her daughter four years ago. Sure, it's a psychological crutch, but it's relatively effective and there is no shrink who can do that for my wife. Who the hell is BW to pontificate on my choice?
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 04 Apr 2007, 17:42:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baldwin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he husky is the very ultimate in useless breeds, for 99.99 % of the human population. Cripes, they don't even use them on the Iditarod, anymore. They are poor watchdogs, can be dangerous around screaming babies (high prey drive, but it doesn't mean they will hunt for you) They wander and won't come when called. They shed all year long and in Spring they "blow their coats", which, is a joy anyone but those who enjoy obsessively vacuuming, should be spared. They're diggers and will gladly turn your yard into a crater laced moonscape, given half a chance, and are just as likely to do this to your couch, if left alone. Many of these habits accompany life in the far North,where they dig into the snow to escape high freezing winds, and in the summer dig into the dirt to excape the heat.


You say that, yet we have dachsunds, pomeranians, afghans, poodles, the voluminous terrier breeds, chihuahuas, and beagles.

The Iditarod is about speed, like many races. When cars fall out of use, either human or animal labor will be used. In the stripmall I live in (LI, New york), a husky is as close to a pack-animal as it gets. I also am drawn to the energetic nature of the breed...ie they are like a personal trainer.


Baldwin, Seriously, you have to get some of this Nanook of the North stuff out of your head. You are seriously mythtaken. Are you thinking of buying a wheeled cart and having a husky pull you around Long island in it? If you plan to be home most of the time, get a husky, but don't say you weren't warned if it destroys your house, the moment it's left alone for an afternoon.
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Re: I want a dog.

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Sun 08 Apr 2007, 02:27:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'B')W, sounds too me that when you go to the doggie park you are as blinded by your distain for the entire interaction as we are by our love for our dogs. You certainly missed a lot in your boredom. My dog has enriched my life immensely, period. You see my perceptions as flawed - acusing me of being a junkie - somehow addicted to my dog *hic*. You see my pleasure as a doggie owner a fake by-product of that intoxication. I see your perceptions as flawed, you are addicted to being contrary to the "normals". Your self-identity seems to be wrapped up in seeing yourself as other/better than all us, when really all you want from us is to love you the way we love our animals. You're starving for attention and jealous of our affection to a life form you consider lower. You'd like to kill those animals because you can't stand that we might enjoy their company more than yours. Admit it. You are a deeply insecure and disturbed person BW. I do hope that someday you allow yourself the pleasure of loving an animal.


Emm, I am currently loving all animals. Even you, crapattack. If you could just put down your doggie crack pipe for a second you'd realize I'm reaching out.... to bitch-slap you back into a state of dignity.

And when I went to the dog park, it was only with enthusiasm for being around people and dogs, just the experience. It might be strange to hear coming from me, but I really was there as involved as everyone else. I don't show up with one corner of my mouth twitching, in a trench coat, fingering a baseball bat.

It might be strange to try and conceptualize what its like holding two very different concepts in the head at once, but believe me, its possible. My roommate has a bird. I think pet ownership is retarded. Of course, that influences my musings about what kind of thoughts go through her head. But it does not turn me into a Gollum-like creature, jealous of her attention. (Not that birds seem to demand nearly as much attention). It makes me pleased to have finally figured out how to get people to not think I "hate" dogs when I try to rent a room at a house: I tell them I'm allergic. If I told them I simply didn't prefer to live with dogs, many people would assume I "hate" them. Why is that? Is it because it is indeed "hate"? Or do these people subconsciously feel insecure about their own unsubstantiated habits? I suspect they simply fear the invalidation of their beliefs. Even a flimsy belief will be defended tooth and nail by some people, I've noticed.

Ever notice how some people hold the most preposterous ideas, the most obviously contradictory beliefs, and adopt a steadfast hostility toward the suggestion that it might not be all its cracked up to be? This is the psychology of previous investment, as Kunstler would say, or maybe a reaction formation (Freud) against violation of a consensual validation (Sumner)?

For instance, it would seem that your main objection against any or all of my arguments seem to have collapsed back to its essence: the social consensus is that these animals are not a plague species, that the pet-ownership relationship is not detrimental, that killing dogs and cats en mass is not "moral, ethical, or appropriate". In short, you are falling back on the argument that I am wrong because the consensus validates your own, and invalidates any reasoning or argument as such, regardless of its merit.

Well, if that is the case, then I ask you this: is the consensus right about everything? Or just pet ownership? Why do you need the validation of everyone around you and the society you live in to make personal moral judgments? To me, it is the difference between the consensus mind and truly independent thought. The status quo is frequently laggard on adopting its moral and ethical precepts. Witness the phrase "All men are created equal" and the near-200 year lapse before suffrage. At which point it makes the previous 200 years' immorality as practicable doctrine immune from the burden of responsibility.

The point is that if you think morality is contingent on space and time, you are wrong. It only seems that way. Why justify something, why consider the ethical dimension, why take responsibility for anything if everyone agrees with the practice and everyone is doing it?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') will only say that if you think humans aren't smater than dogs, you're probably incapable of understanding anything I said.


I've never said this. I've argued that the concept doesn't really work and that for all we know you can't prove that dogs aren't as smart. I do understand your argument, I don't agree with it.


Fair enough. I hold, however, that that is the lamest possible kind of disagreement, surely insufficient for the level of effort put into this conversation. For the record, I'll state unequivocally that humans are smarter than dogs. If dogs were smart, how come none of them ever figured out how to stash some of the marijuana they find to smoke later? QED, friends. QED.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') typically assume that humans are the smartest species on the planet. I just don't think it needs justification for rational, reasonable people.


Exactly, you do make that assumption, why? I think you make it because you like to discriminate against animals and want to recruit other people to your cause. You don't think your belief that we are smarter requires justification because you are trapped into the convention of the species pyramid you were fed in grade-school. The judeo-christian hegemony with humans as lord/master. You want to believe this because it is comforting to you to feel superior to animals.

Its a reasonable assumption to make. It does not strike me as unreasonable. I am searching my mind to try and discover whether or not I have pulled some wool over my own eyes in this regard. Ahh, okay. You are saying that some individuals may not be as smart as the average dog. This is quite possible. Say, take the smartest fucking dog on the planet, and the most severely retarded human being. Maybe on par. But the exceptions make the rule, don't they? Dogs are eating, shitting, pissing machines. Humans have complex emotional lives. Dogs don't have "pets". Humans have "pets". I mean, even a child realizes there is something about humans and dogs that seem to put each in entirely different categories. And thats before anyone taught the brat taxonomy.

The Judeo-Christian paradigm of humans as lord and master? Now thats meaty. Certainly the metaphor rings true- if it didn't it wouldn't be one of the classic, all time archetypal images. Its absolutely true in the sense that humans are powerful and can create and destroy and wield power. Nothing wrong with that. Its Judeo-Christian heritage doesn't mean you have to drag all the Judeo-Christian dogma with it. The difficulties lie in its interpretation as embodied by doctrine. And I don't agree with those doctrines. I don't, in fact, feel superior to animals.

You're making it sound as if no one would consider pet ownership to be unethical unless they desired to feel superior. And its not true. I think its unethical because I'm allergic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')less smart animals should be arbitrarily enslaved... wait, thats the point you're trying to make...

Pardon me? I've never said that, at least never intented to.

How is pet ownership like "slavery"? I am insinuating that it is like slavery. The leash, the controlled feeding, the "Master" role, the "obedience training", etc. and so on make quite the interesting parallel. Not that you were trying to draw such a parallel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is called a "Slippery Slope" fallacy. Just because I think the culling of pet animals is necessitated, does not mean that I am justifying killing babies.

I was joking but being a little snide too. Exaggerating for the sake of effect. But hell, following your logic, why not? I mean they are less intelligent than we are, use up far more resources than dogs and cat, produce much more waste, and we have overpopulated the planet so we don't need so many replacements. I mean why are you just focusing on the dogs and cats? I think you hate dogs and cats and are trying to couch your points in some gobbly-gook psuedo-philosophy to try to make the idea of exterminating and stuffing them all sound reasonably valid.

I'll be explicit then. I do not think babies should be killed; I think their parents should be as soon as they've raised their replacements to the age where they can fend for themselves. This cuts down on essential redundancy in the human population.

I definitely, positively think that dogs (and cats) should be culled. And smash a few bagpipes as well for good measure.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou're right, it doesn't necessarily follow that because we are more powerful we have moral responsibility. Moral responsibility is something you choose to take on. But thinking people, caring people, contentious people, do consider these things.

So you think that it is the moral action of "thinking caring people, contentious people" to exterminate the planet of dogs and cats?

Who else would suggest it? And who would carry it out, if not "thinking, caring, contentious people"?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut I do see it (dog ownership) shaking the foundations of some people's sense of their own humanity.

Yes, it teaches them to care for something other than themselves, to have compassion for other beings, have some spontaneous fun and get some exercise while doing it. Horrors!

Pet ownership, despite advertisements for it listing its benefits as listed above, is actually not a good substitute for real exercise. It is not spontaneous; in fact, it is characterized by routine and repetition. And lastly, finally, totally: owning a pet teaches you nothing about real compassion. If you had real compassion for other beings, you'd start acting like a human being, and exercise the power to do something about it.

Having a dog leads to: an inability to empathize beyond your own self-fulfillment, a fat ass because you think your little walks are "exercise", and a desperately dull personality because your idea of spontaneity is yoked to the needs of a shitting, eating, shedding, slobber-bot.

The saddest of the sad people, in my opinion, are the retards on Prozac who get dogs to really flush out all their remaining coping skills.
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