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Unread postby Liamj » Mon 01 Aug 2005, 22:01:17

Recent cases here in melbourne: greviously assaulted woman deteriorating whilst in coma, no prospect of recovery, still MURDER Lin?
http://theage.com.au/articles/2005/07/2 ... click=true
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Tue 02 Aug 2005, 06:12:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ecent cases here in melbourne: greviously assaulted woman deteriorating whilst in coma, no prospect of recovery, still MURDER Lin?


Yes. Doing some action which means ending someone's life is murder. A person in a coma is very much alive, they just need food and water and cleaning. I dispute the idea that sustenance is a type of medical treatment.

'No prospect of recovery'. How many times have we heard doctors say that, only for the person to recover not long after. Doctors dont have a clue about coma's. They never have.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Tue 02 Aug 2005, 11:43:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') dispute the idea that sustenance is a type of medical treatment.

Maybe you do, but medical societies around the globe and the consensus in medical ethics is that they are one and the same.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Tue 02 Aug 2005, 12:08:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')aybe you do, but medical societies around the globe and the consensus in medical ethics is that they are one and the same.


there is a consensus in medial ethics in my country that its no problem to stab a baby through the back of the neck and suck its brain out just as its born because the mother finds it inconvenient and it may mess up her career.

medical 'ethics' is all wrong. eating food and drinking water is not medical treatment. i've never seen a doctor prescribe water to anyone, have you?

unfortunately, there is an evil movement inside most developed countries medical bodies trying to get euthansia passed, mercy killings in and all sorts of horrific stuff. thank god there are people to fight it all the way.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Tue 02 Aug 2005, 12:42:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')aybe you do, but medical societies around the globe and the consensus in medical ethics is that they are one and the same.


there is a consensus in medial ethics in my country that its no problem to stab a baby through the back of the neck and suck its brain out just as its born because the mother finds it inconvenient and it may mess up her career.

medical 'ethics' is all wrong. eating food and drinking water is not medical treatment. i've never seen a doctor prescribe water to anyone, have you?

unfortunately, there is an evil movement inside most developed countries medical bodies trying to get euthansia passed, mercy killings in and all sorts of horrific stuff. thank god there are people to fight it all the way.

lin I will not enter the debate, it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about. Providing intravenous fluids and nutrition has the same status in the eyes of the medical profession and the law as putting someone on the ventinaltor because it is essential as the latter. Stop the intravenous fluid and death ensues in days instead of seconds, the difference in temporal scale is unimportant. That's why the Conservative Management Plan Forms here in the US grant "nutrition/fluids" the same status as "heroic" measures. And even here, in the US (much less conservative than my European colleagues) the code of ethics of the AMA leave it up to the physician to withhold medical treatment based on "futility" arguments. The fact that we do not it, is because it opens up legal and has the potential for conflict especially for families who "do not get it" (to put it politely). Regarding voluntary "euthanasia and mercy killings", this is will be the natural evolution of our professional ethical code especially since the majority of the health profession would opt for such measures for themselves if they were ill with certain conditions. Cases that illustrate this point amyatrophic lateral sclerosis or pancreatic cancer. For the majority of terminal diseases, hospice care after a certain stage is all that is needed.
BTW a physician's oath and duty is not to heal but to relieve suffering, so the measures you abhore are actually much less degrading (and even advance) human dignity at the end of life.
I do not understand the that its no problem to stab a baby through the back of the neck and suck its brain out just as its born because the mother finds it inconvenient and it may mess up her career., abortions is legal before a certain gestational age. After that it puts the life of the mother in danger ... If you are referring to certain cases in the UK when babies were born with terminal diseases, and the physicians NHS trusts and parents took the case to the courts, these are tough ones. No chance of reaching a consensus hence the utility for the legal system
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Tue 02 Aug 2005, 12:48:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
medical 'ethics' is all wrong. eating food and drinking water is not medical treatment. i've never seen a doctor prescribe water to anyone, have you?
.

Type of diet and fluid intake are part of the admission orders in any hospital. Even the cherry liquor that is sometimes given in Brittish hospitals (or the beer we sometimes give to prevent withdrawal :-D)
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby Liamj » Tue 02 Aug 2005, 21:58:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ecent cases here in melbourne: greviously assaulted woman deteriorating whilst in coma, no prospect of recovery, still MURDER Lin?


Yes. Doing some action which means ending someone's life is murder. ...
It must be so comforting to have some nice simple rules. But you must be so very busy, opposing your govts 2 current wars, the dysfunctional (and toxicly polluting) nuke industry, the critical underfunding of domestic violence refuges, the arming of bobbies...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '
')'No prospect of recovery'. How many times have we heard doctors say that, only for the person to recover not long after. Doctors dont have a clue about coma's. They never have.
So glad we've got a lawyer here to sort that out for us.
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 06:07:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o glad we've got a lawyer here to sort that out for us.


I know i am coming up a brick wall against all of your closed mindedness. Thats what i find hilarious about people with viewpoints like yourselves - you all go on about how 'open-minded' you are, when in fact people with viewpoints like yourselves are some of the most closed minded people in the world.

Anything which doesnt fit into your moral relativism liberal wishy washy 'there is no such thing as truth' mindset is immediately flushed down the toilet.

I'll finish off this thread by reaffirming my belief in the sanctity of life, my belief that doctors are frequently wrong about many things, and my belief that everything possible should be done to save someone.

Oh yeah - and food and water are not medical treatments - even if they are supplied by tube - i dont care what the medical profession says, that profession is packed full of liberals who increasingly are having to make decisions on people's lives based on cost alone.
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Unread postby Doly » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 07:10:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '
')I'll finish off this thread by reaffirming my belief in the sanctity of life, my belief that doctors are frequently wrong about many things, and my belief that everything possible should be done to save someone.


I also believe in the sanctity of life. That's why I would try to avoid to degrade it whenever possible.

I also agree that doctors are wrong many times.

But the third point, what do you want to save people from? Death? You know that's impossible. Then what?
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Unread postby Doly » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 07:14:06

duplicate
Last edited by Doly on Wed 03 Aug 2005, 08:43:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Doly » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 08:43:08

triplicate
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 08:54:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut the third point, what do you want to save people from? Death? You know that's impossible. Then what?


Of course not. I meant that all efforts should be made to save someone from death if its possible to do so. Of course, if someone is brain dead, then its ok for breathing support to be removed. What i disagree with is the removal of food and water from someone, just because you think they have no chance of recovery.

Food and water isnt medicine. Hunger and thirst aren't symptoms of a disease! People who are in comas deserve to at least expect not to be starved to death, dont you think!?
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Unread postby threadbear » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 13:26:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut the third point, what do you want to save people from? Death? You know that's impossible. Then what?


Of course not. I meant that all efforts should be made to save someone from death if its possible to do so. Of course, if someone is brain dead, then its ok for breathing support to be removed. What i disagree with is the removal of food and water from someone, just because you think they have no chance of recovery.

Food and water isnt medicine. Hunger and thirst aren't symptoms of a disease! People who are in comas deserve to at least expect not to be starved to death, dont you think!?


People in comas deserve to die with dignity and if that means a super shot of morphine, so be it. They shouldn't be starved or dehydrated to death. This is the cowardly middle ground solution of a society that 'allows' a passive form of torture, rather than active compassion.
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Unread postby Liamj » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 21:33:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o glad we've got a lawyer here to sort that out for us.


I know i am coming up a brick wall against all of your closed mindedness. Thats what i find hilarious about people with viewpoints like yourselves - you all go on about how 'open-minded' you are, when in fact people with viewpoints like yourselves are some of the most closed minded people in the world.

Anything which doesnt fit into your moral relativism liberal wishy washy 'there is no such thing as truth' mindset is immediately flushed down the toilet.

Mmm, savaged by misrepresentation & recycled cliche, how dull. I am far from a moral relativist and am pretty sure about a fair number of truths.

One truth i am pretty sure of is that individuals own themselves, not some religion or the State, and so far as it harms no other, should determine their own fate, up to and including death.

Linlithgoil being certain (from her interpretation of a very old & much revised book) that what i see as a fundamental right of existence is 'sick' or means i 'have a defect' is a perfect example of why religion is so dangerous. She can do what she likes with her life but she has no right to rule on what i can do with mine.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I'll finish off this thread by reaffirming my belief in the sanctity of life, my belief that doctors are frequently wrong about many things, and my belief that everything possible should be done to save someone.
Err, do you want those same so-often-wrong doctors to do the saving, or are you pushing faith healing too? :-D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h yeah - and food and water are not medical treatments - even if they are supplied by tube - i dont care what the medical profession says, that profession is packed full of liberals who increasingly are having to make decisions on people's lives based on cost alone.
Check out the spin on this thing, i think Lin is going pro.
Liberals making decisions on cost alone!?!? What a crock, around the West.world its the pious & economic rationalist Rightist governments (e.g. Howard, Bush, Thatcher, Major, Salazar, Berlusconi) who gutted health spending (hey, wars aint free), its remnant liberals who are fighting them!! And you're claiming liberals are to blame! I thought they spent too much, get your regurgitated slanders straight Lin.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 22:31:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut the third point, what do you want to save people from? Death? You know that's impossible. Then what?


Of course not. I meant that all efforts should be made to save someone from death if its possible to do so. Of course, if someone is brain dead, then its ok for breathing support to be removed. What i disagree with is the removal of food and water from someone, just because you think they have no chance of recovery.

Food and water isnt medicine. Hunger and thirst aren't symptoms of a disease! People who are in comas deserve to at least expect not to be starved to death, dont you think!?

Ok Lin you continue your ignorant ranting and religious delirium on this one.
Check the literature on withholding nutrition and hydration before you start spilling those POC
American Medical Association (far more conservative than many of the European Medical Associations) position found here
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he social commitment of the physician is to sustain life and relieve suffering. Where the performance of one duty conflicts with the other, the preferences of the patient should prevail. The principle of patient autonomy requires that physicians respect the decision to forego life-sustaining treatment of a patient who possesses decision-making capacity. Life-sustaining treatment is any treatment that serves to prolong life without reversing the underlying medical condition. Life-sustaining treatment may include, but is not limited to, mechanical ventilation, renal dialysis, chemotherapy, antibiotics, and artificial nutrition and hydration.

There is no ethical distinction between withdrawing and withholding life-sustaining treatment.....
Physicians have an obligation to relieve pain and suffering and to promote the dignity and autonomy of dying patients in their care. This includes providing effective palliative treatment even though it may foreseeably hasten death.

Even if the patient is not terminally ill or permanently unconscious, it is not unethical to discontinue all means of life-sustaining medical treatment in accordance with a proper substituted judgment or best interests analysis.

Medical literature on nutrition/hydration and hunger/thirst in terminally ill patients (landmark study is in JAMA. 1994 Oct 26;272(16):1263-6.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ONCLUSIONS--In this series, patients terminally ill with cancer generally did not experience hunger and those who did needed only small amounts of food for alleviation. Complaints of thirst and dry mouth were relieved with mouth care and sips of liquids far less than that needed to prevent dehydration. Food and fluid administration beyond the specific requests of patients may play a minimal role in providing comfort to terminally ill patients.

NCBI Search String
Review of research literature on terminal nutrition by Winter SM Am J Med. 2000 Dec 15;109(9):723-6, conclusion in abstract $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he evidence suggests an alternative formulation, namely, that unrequested nutritional support provided by either the enteral or parenteral route to a terminally ill patient may be both medically and ethically indefensible because it may increase suffering without improving outcome.

A big study from Japan (to show that this is not a "US-thing")
J Palliat Med. 2004 Oct;7(5):683-93.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ONCLUSIONS: The physicians and nurses in both oncology and palliative care settings frequently observed deterioration of fluid retention symptoms with limited benefits in alleviating dehydration symptoms by intravenous hydration therapy for terminally ill patients with cancer. It is suggested that routine use of artificial hydration therapy should not be recommended, and individualized treatment policy based on the comprehensive assessment of each patient's needs is strongly required.

The consensus: at the end of life or in comatose states, hydration and nutrition ARE medical treatments (since patients have to rely on medical devices and synthetic formulas to receive their nutrition, one cannot force a burger down a 2mm feeding tube). These measures do not help with quality of life at the end, and frequently lead to deteriorating QoL indices. Research on terminally ill patients has given us the data to make those statements (and not the fact that we are a bunch of anarchocommieatheisttreehuggerliberals). Majority of physicians try to address those issues with the patient long before the terminal stage so there is a living will in chart.If not most of the states here allow for a patient appointed medical power of attorney or another surrogate decision maker to be available for consultation when the question has to be addressed. (Courts are the last resort). The weight of evidence is that by "nutrition and hydration" are ineffective, cruel measures that do not advance patient dignity and result in suboptimal health care. I'm sorry if reality disagrees with Evangelical Christias Ministers, The Pope, Mullahs,Orthodox Patriarchs but as everyone is about to find out with PO AND GW reality is the ultimate judge [smilie=violent1.gif]
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Thu 04 Aug 2005, 05:48:15

I guess it just goes to show that, without belief in God, life becomes meaningless. I dont care how many so called studies you provide links to, as i explained, medical bodies are very much full of atheist utilitarian pragmatists which very much colours their views. i have no respect for a profession which allows the murder of innocent children simply because the mother cannot be bothered looking after it, or doesn't want to give up her self indugent lifestyle of 'me, me, me'.

btw - the guy that keeps calling me 'she' please stop it, im a 'he'.

btw, the ultimate judge isn't reality, the ultimate judge is God from which no one can escape.

also, my faith doesn't come from a 'much revised book' it comes from God and the Holy Spirit. God isn't found in a book, he is a living God who you must seek out in everyday life. As a Catholic we are taught first and foremost to love God and love your neighbour, if you keep these commandments you won't go far wrong.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 04 Aug 2005, 09:34:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 'I') dont care how many so called studies you provide links to, as i explained, medical bodies are very much full of atheist utilitarian pragmatists which very much colours their views. .

It takes one comment for a person to loose credibility, yours is highlighted.
A study is an experiment, lists number ... you can disagree with the interpretation but you should not disagree with the data.
And stop calline me atheist, I'm an agnostic. A side note, the "utilitarians" you are referring to, are mostly free market prophets you follow.
Regarding your other post about physicians and cost, that is one big hypocrisy. It is the gospels of the free market that destroyed health care across the world.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Thu 04 Aug 2005, 12:07:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t takes one comment for a person to loose credibility, yours is highlighted.
A study is an experiment, lists number ... you can disagree with the interpretation but you should not disagree with the data.
And stop calline me atheist, I'm an agnostic. A side note, the "utilitarians" you are referring to, are mostly free market prophets you follow.
Regarding your other post about physicians and cost, that is one big hypocrisy. It is the gospels of the free market that destroyed health care across the world.


Ill stop calling you atheist if you stop calling me a free market prophet. I know very well the limitations of the free market and consider myself very much a socialist in economic issues - i don't support the idea of trickle down, i dont even think people should be allowed to own more than one home, and i believe in a 100% tax rate above income of £100,000 per year.

No matter how many studies are conducted, 'data' can't support an argument that human life is no better than animal life. Its all to do with personal viewpoint. Plus, data is very often flawed and other 'studies' usually come out later debunking the earlier ones.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 04 Aug 2005, 12:13:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t takes one comment for a person to loose credibility, yours is highlighted.
A study is an experiment, lists number ... you can disagree with the interpretation but you should not disagree with the data.
And stop calline me atheist, I'm an agnostic. A side note, the "utilitarians" you are referring to, are mostly free market prophets you follow.
Regarding your other post about physicians and cost, that is one big hypocrisy. It is the gospels of the free market that destroyed health care across the world.


Ill stop calling you atheist if you stop calling me a free market prophet. I know very well the limitations of the free market and consider myself very much a socialist in economic issues - i don't support the idea of trickle down, i dont even think people should be allowed to own more than one home, and i believe in a 100% tax rate above income of £100,000 per year.

No matter how many studies are conducted, 'data' can't support an argument that human life is no better than animal life. Its all to do with personal viewpoint. Plus, data is very often flawed and other 'studies' usually come out later debunking the earlier ones.
That's why I sued the term majority, and that's why we have field called medical ethics, cause hard and fast rules are not always applicable.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Unread postby Falconoffury » Sat 06 Aug 2005, 02:12:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know i am coming up a brick wall against all of your closed mindedness.


Someone who thinks there is NEVER a situation where someone would be better off with a quick death than a long period of suffering is close mindedness all the way.

If someone believes in god, then why does death have to be so bad? It's the people who think there is nothing after death who should really want to be alive for as long as possible.

I can't believe that I'm selfish in someone's eyes for not trying to have any children. The people who have children that use more energy, destroy more of nature, and create more global warming are the selfish ones. They want to live great during this generation and basically steal the beauty of the planet away from future generations. That's selfish.
"If humans don't control their numbers, nature will." -Pimentel
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