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Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Plantagenet » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 19:12:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', ' ')The state will spend a million dollars conducting a show trial to appease the above mentioned factions and then will release Zimmerman.


If Zimmerman is acquited the protests will start up again, but even worse. The protests will be led by two important figures in the democratic party--both black and both former candidates for the democratic presidential nomination--- Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson --- . The crowds will return in Florida and elsewhere, dressed in hoodies and carrying skittles and chanting "no justice no peace." Obama may even claim again that if he had ever had a son, that son would look just like Trayvon.

Eric Holder already directed the FBI to do a civil rights investigation of Zimmerman and its highly likely there will be federal civil rights charges brought against Zimmerman if the state trail ends in acquital.

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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Fiddlerdave » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 19:19:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'S')ixstrings is being obtuse about something the law makes clear distinctions about. In a mutual fight where both parties beat on each other as in a bar fight, the officers are going to arrest both parties for disturbing the peace/assualt or both. If someone dies as the result of this mutual combat, the other party is going to get charged with manslaughter

When someone jumps on you and starts beating on you, there is no mutual combat and the aggressor is the one charged with a crime. Martin, by all available evidence attacked Zimmerman and proceeded to beat him and slam his head against the sidewalk. At that point, Martin can not claim self-defense and Zimmerman's right to self-defense is enhanced to include lethal force to stop such an attack. That is black letter law. The race-baiters can't seem to get their head around the fact that self-defense laws are written specifically to terminate the right of an aggressor to an affirmative defense of self-defense.
Too bad stalking is aggression.

And the evidence points to Zimmerman confronting Martin as the end of that stalking, if we go by the gf's story.

Martin had every right to try to defend himself against Zimmerman.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Sixstrings » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 20:00:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I')f I hit everyone that followed me or thought I was suspicious and said something nasty, I would spend my entire life in jail, not to mention my knuckles would always be bloody and cut up; which is actually quite unpleasant.


I'm just asking that you put yourself in Trayvon's shoes. He's walking down the street.. there's a car tailing him.. at some point Zimmerman gets out and follows him on foot. Presumably, Trayvon probably did what I've done in sketchy situations you change directions see if the person is still following you.

If they're still following, maybe you run -- isn't that what Trayvon did? It's on the 911 tape I think, "he's running now" then "are you following him we don't need you to do that."

Look Agent, hasn't happened to me often but I can remember once some guy was following me when I was out walking. It was scary. Don't know what the deal was, I can only assuming mugging. I went into a bar, public space, and just stayed for a while.

I don't care what the letter of the law says, this is human nature, you can go to just about any corner of this planet and if you start following a stranger they are going to feel threatened by that. Zimmerman was behaving and carrying himself like a cop, that was his mindset, yet without a badge and uniform that's a threatening demeanor coming from a stranger stalking you out in public. This is just basic psychologically it's gut-level, we all know the difference between someone walking down the street with us vs. being stalked.

Maybe Trayvon should have called the police. Maybe being black he's cautious about calling the cops. Maybe he's just 17 and didn't know what to do, was just scared this white guy was stalking him and Zimmerman wouldn't say why other than "what are you doing around here."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')heck FBI crime stats. Fist&Feet is a pretty lethal category, and Zimmerman suffered exactly the same kind of attack that often leads to death or permanent brain injury. You can not hit people in the head and not risk killing them.


I get what you're saying there ^^, but Agent come on, just everyday life experience you surely know how common fights are. People don't die in the fistfights as commonly as when guns get involved.

I've seen many barfights, I can't remember any where a gun would have made it better. There are domestic fights in families all the time, it's one of the top calls out for law enforcement. Introducing guns into these fights is not a good idea. Anyone can say they feel threatened in a fight. I agree with self defense but there's just some difference here between being randomly attacked versus looking for a fight.

From what I've read, "stand your ground" hasn't protected anyone the law is just being used by gang members and people pulling guns in barfights.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Sixstrings » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 20:26:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'M')artin, by all available evidence attacked Zimmerman and proceeded to beat him and slam his head against the sidewalk. At that point, Martin can not claim self-defense and Zimmerman's right to self-defense is enhanced to include lethal force to stop such an attack. That is black letter law. The race-baiters can't seem to get their head around the fact that self-defense laws are written specifically to terminate the right of an aggressor to an affirmative defense of self-defense.


Well first of all..

If Zimmerman really had his "head slammed into the concrete" he would have had a concussion. He would been transported to hospital just for safety sake, yet he wasn't.

But yeah, we need to know more here. It has yet to come out exactly how the fight started. What we know so far is that Trayvon had his girlfriend on the phone, he told her a guy was following him, and she overheard Trayvon ask "why are you following me" and then Zimmerman says "what are you doing around here" and then I think the phone went dead but what's critical here is what the girlfriend may have overheard also any eyewitnesses, if it can be figured out who threw the first punch.

Yet Cog.. what about those screams? Software analysis concluded it was a younger man than Zimmerman (which agrees with my common sense when I heard it). Those screams go on for a long time. That's Trayvon screaming. Doesn't add up, that's clearly a victim you hear screaming like that it's clear as day. That's what you hear on that 911 tape, those long screams it's very sad goes on a while and THEN the gunshot.

Wasn't Zimmerman screaming. Sounded like a kid to me. And science confirms that, it's a young voice younger than Zimmerman and doesn't match his voice at all.

P.S. you know what.. I think I just figured this out.. I wonder if Zimmerman, in his deluded "I'm a cop" mindset, got on top of Trayvon to restrain him until police arrived. Trayvon, not knowing who the hell this guy was, would naturally view that as an attack and fight back and then Zimmerman fired. THIS WOULD EXPLAIN the screaming. Trayvon wasn't wounded, we know that, so why was he screaming like that -- my common sense tells me he was probably being held down.

Bottom line.. the screaming you hear on that tape is a plea for help, it sounds like a victim, and software analysis concluded it's not Zimmerman's voice.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Plantagenet » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 20:53:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')If Zimmerman really had his "head slammed into the concrete" he would have had a concussion.


Do you really doubt Zimmerman had his head slammed into the concrete? Didn't you see the pics of the big gashes and bruises on the back of his head?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')It has yet to come out exactly how the fight started. What we know so far is that Trayvon had his girlfriend on the phone, he told her a guy was following him, and she overheard Trayvon ask "why are you following me" and then Zimmerman says "what are you doing around here" and then I think the phone went dead but what's critical here is what the girlfriend may have overheard also any eyewitnesses, if it can be figured out who threw the first punch.


Thats what Trayvon's girlfriend says----but we don't know that her story is true. More will all come out at the trial. The exact timing of the cell phone call will be critical. If Trayvon's girlfriend really was on the phone with Trayvon when Zimmeran confronted him, then the phone records will confirm this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')what about those screams? Software analysis concluded it was a younger man than Zimmerman (which agrees with my common sense when I heard it).


Other software analysts say its impossible to compare a normal voice and a screaming voice. The police supposedly took Zimmerman back to the death scene and had him scream the same words and recorded it over the same phone and then compared it to the original 911 call---it will come out at the trial.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')That's what you hear on that 911 tape, those long screams it's very sad goes on a while and THEN the gunshot.


That matches Zimmerman's story perfectly. Trayvon was beating him, and Zimmerman was screaming "help help" and then in the struggle he shot Trayvon in self-defense.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')P.S. you know what.. I think I just figured this out.. I wonder if Zimmerman, in his deluded "I'm a cop" mindset, got on top of Trayvon to restrain him until police arrived. Trayvon, not knowing who the hell this guy was, would naturally view that as an attack and fight back and then Zimmerman fired.

That doesn't explain the gashes on back of Zimmerman's head, and conflicts with eyewitness accounts that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'B')ottom line.. the screaming you hear on that tape is a plea for help, it sounds like a victim, and software analysis concluded it's not Zimmerman's voice.

But Zimmerman said it is his voice. Lets wait for the real data on the real tapes to come out at the trial rather than relying on the word of some media-hungry nobody who announces his findings based on what he hears on the news (and that was before NBC news later admitted they altered some of the 911 tapes they were broadcasting to make Zimmerman look worse.). :roll:
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Cog » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 06:22:42

[quote="Sixstrings"]I don't care what the letter of the law says...[/quote]
You could have stopped typing after this because its rather obvious by now that you care not for the law. You simply want to hand Zimmerman over to the mob.

Fortunately for Zimmerman there will be a judge who does cares about the law and the jury will be instructed as to what the law is. If you don't like the law, get together with your progressive friends and change it.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 14:13:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')I don't care what the letter of the law says...quote]

You could have stopped typing after this because its rather obvious by now that you care not for the law. You simply want to hand Zimmerman over to the mob..


Cog's right on this one, 6.

Emotions are running high. A mob has been stirred up and they are howling for Zimmerman's blood. Think for a second---don't give yourself over and join the angry mob---you'll hate yourself in the morning.

Step away from the mob and stand with the sheriff and the other good folks in town and tell the angry mob to go home. The judge will deal with this in the morning.

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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Livewire713 » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 15:21:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'I')f Zimmerman really had his "head slammed into the concrete" he would have had a concussion.
Do you really doubt Zimmerman had his head slammed into the concrete? Didn't you see the pics of the big gashes and bruises on the back of his head?

Zimmerman barely has any hair. I don't see how you would slam someones head into the ground without grabbing them by the hair. If he grabbed his ears or his face he would have had bruises or scratches on his face and neck.
I agree with Six, following someone is very threatening, especially at night. If you tell someone to back off and they don't, then I think you have the right to defend yourself. This is what I think happen between Zimmerman and Martin.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby dinopello » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 15:32:54

The state will have no case if it is shown that Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was killed. Eyewitness reports (not under oath) are mixed and uncertain so they may cancel each other out. Ballistics may be the deciding factor and we haven't heard anything except that only one bullet was discharged.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2 ... about.html
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Cog » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 16:24:17

If you like research and the entire narrative about timelines and locations this website has a lot of info. Including tweets from Martin and his "girlfriend" Dee-Dee. Apparently Team Skittle was not able to clean up the twitter accounts although they tried very hard to do so. Lots of good stuff in there about the wanna-be-gangsta Trayvon.

By the way, this information has been forwarded to Zimmerman's lawyer by the site admin to save him some research time. Can't wait until they put Dee-Dee on the stand. Should provide some comedy. She already has a new boyfriend she wants to have a baby with.

Main Link

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... more-37606

Including this fight club video where Trayvon makes a guest appearance about 16 seconds into the video. He is wearing the backwards baseball cap, black jeans, and striped shirt. Egging the combatants on. Too bad Trayvon forgot the most important aspect of Fight Club. Don't talk about Fight Club.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wELTLnT ... r_embedded
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Cog » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 18:06:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fiddlerdave', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'S')ixstrings is being obtuse about something the law makes clear distinctions about. In a mutual fight where both parties beat on each other as in a bar fight, the officers are going to arrest both parties for disturbing the peace/assualt or both. If someone dies as the result of this mutual combat, the other party is going to get charged with manslaughter

When someone jumps on you and starts beating on you, there is no mutual combat and the aggressor is the one charged with a crime. Martin, by all available evidence attacked Zimmerman and proceeded to beat him and slam his head against the sidewalk. At that point, Martin can not claim self-defense and Zimmerman's right to self-defense is enhanced to include lethal force to stop such an attack. That is black letter law. The race-baiters can't seem to get their head around the fact that self-defense laws are written specifically to terminate the right of an aggressor to an affirmative defense of self-defense.
Too bad stalking is aggression.

And the evidence points to Zimmerman confronting Martin as the end of that stalking, if we go by the gf's story.

Martin had every right to try to defend himself against Zimmerman.



You know, I keep telling you guys that in the law, words have meaning. But since you won't do the research yourself, I'll do it for you. Stalking does not apply to what Zimmerman was doing. Took me 15 seconds to find a legal defintion of stalking. Something you should have done before talking about something you know nothing about. There is no stalking because there is no repetition and intent to harm. Ever hear of a stalker who calls 911 before they follow someone around? :lol: :lol:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/stalking/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') person who intentionally and repeatedly follows or harasses another person and who makes a credible threat, either expressed or implied, with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm is guilty of the crime of stalking.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Sixstrings » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 20:40:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'F')ortunately for Zimmerman there will be a judge who does cares about the law and the jury will be instructed as to what the law is. If you don't like the law, get together with your progressive friends and change it.


Well Republicans will fix it actually.. our Tea Party governor launched an investigation blue ribbon panel thing into "stand your ground." Jeb Bush, who signed this law, has said it was never meant to cover a situation like this.

It's a bad law, Cog. Shouldn't apply to folks out lookin' for a fight, *pursuing*. And even at that this case is anomalous, up until now it's mostly been used by gang members and in bar fights. What kind of law is that? Letting some gangster thug get off because of the NRA's gun law? Making it ok to pull a gun *and use it* in a bar fight? Just a bad law man, we've got centuries of English common law that worked just fine, "stand your ground" was never needed.

(and obviously I care about the law, I'm just saying common sense wise you can't go around stalking strangers in public, that's inherently threatening -- is this not obvious?)
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Sixstrings » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 20:52:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'E')motions are running high. A mob has been stirred up and they are howling for Zimmerman's blood. Think for a second---don't give yourself over and join the angry mob---you'll hate yourself in the morning.

Step away from the mob and stand with the sheriff and the other good folks in town and tell the angry mob to go home. The judge will deal with this in the morning.


As for "the mob," Trayvon's parents have been quite dignified, all they ever asked for was an arrest and a trial. They're Christian people.

Personally, I'm not angry. It's just sad.. and a lot of food for thought for a lot of reasons. Makes you think about our society. Our "gated communities." So they have a neighborhood watch captain, well trouble started and everyone locked their doors and maybe they saw something maybe nobody saw nothin' but here's a neighborhood with a bunch of people and *someone* was just left to scream like that in the street.

Other parts of the US, small towns maybe, other parts of the world folks would come out of their house see what the hell is going on. But not in the "gated community" everyone's locked in their castle within a castle.

It's just food for thought Plant. Studies have shown this.. people having medical emergencies, even hit by a car, sometimes they just lay there and everyone ignores them. Walks / drives right past them, nobody wants trouble nobody wants to "get involved."

We ignore the homeless people we see on the streets. We look through them as if they're not there. I have to wonder here, this neighborhood had people in their homes watching through the blinds -- what if some folks had just come out and yelled "what's going on" maybe that could have diffused the fight. As it is you had somebody screaming for help in broad daylight.

And then Zimmerman..

Food for thought here. "Gated community" mentality, gun culture mentality, look I know lots of people on this forum carry concealed weapons but that's just not a part of my world -- I have no friends or family that do such. It's *a bit oddball*. Most folks don't have a desire to carry a gun around with them, to actually get a permit and walk around armed.

Zimmerman doesn't seem like a bad guy at all, doesn't seem like he was out to shoot someone, but IT DOES seem like he had this idea in his head he was some kind of cop. Went out and got him that concealed weapon permit. Was going to school for law enforcement (even though he'd already been turned down). He *appointed himself* neighborhood watch captain. Not an evil guy, looks more like someone obsessed with being a cop when fact is he had no badge no authority and not so much as a votech criminal justice certificate.

*He didn't have the training to be doing this* and even the 911 op TOLD him that "we don't need you to pursue him." Listen to the 911 tape, he *sounds* like he's a cop "ah, he's running" and "they always get away" -- what the hell is that, he's not even a cop in the first place yet he sounds like the fictional cliche of a cop gone bad. "They always get away," he said. I'm really starting to wonder if Zimmerman attempted to detain Trayvon and that's how the fight started.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby seenmostofit » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 01:14:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Food for thought here. "Gated community" mentality, gun culture mentality, look I know lots of people on this forum carry concealed weapons but that's just not a part of my world -- I have no friends or family that do such. It's *a bit oddball*. Most folks don't have a desire to carry a gun around with them, to actually get a permit and walk around armed.



Interesting. Half the people I know and work with have concealed carry permits. Got mine last week. We also shoot with the IDPA, various clubs, go hunting, all of this always struck me as just run of the mill, everyone does it type stuff. Zimmerman carrying a gun is no different than...well...everyone else carrying a gun. In my case it involved fingerprinting, background checks, NRA pistol courses, stuff like that.

I wonder if Zimmerman was required to do more than just show up and ask for a permit? Not that it matters at this point, but it is interesting, the perspective. "Most folks don't desire to carry a gun around"? Can't even imagine a place like that really, is it like a California enclave of some sort? New York maybe?
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Sixstrings » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 17:52:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seenmostofit', 'I')nteresting. Half the people I know and work with have concealed carry permits. Got mine last week. We also shoot with the IDPA, various clubs, go hunting, all of this always struck me as just run of the mill, everyone does it type stuff. Zimmerman carrying a gun is no different than...well...everyone else carrying a gun. In my case it involved fingerprinting, background checks, NRA pistol courses, stuff like that.


Well.. all I can say is.. just personally.. if one is living in a place that's so dangerous you need to walk around armed, then it's time to move.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby seenmostofit » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 18:24:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seenmostofit', 'I')nteresting. Half the people I know and work with have concealed carry permits. Got mine last week. We also shoot with the IDPA, various clubs, go hunting, all of this always struck me as just run of the mill, everyone does it type stuff. Zimmerman carrying a gun is no different than...well...everyone else carrying a gun. In my case it involved fingerprinting, background checks, NRA pistol courses, stuff like that.


Well.. all I can say is.. just personally.. if one is living in a place that's so dangerous you need to walk around armed, then it's time to move.


You appear to imply that people only carry guns because they live in dangerous places? I carry a gun for the same reason I carry a pocket knife. And a drivers license. Wear shoes. Carry keys. Have you lived in such a sheltered place your entire life that your every security need has been handled by TPTB? Goodness gracious man, beyond the implication that you trust your most sacred possession to a complete stranger who may be miles away and busy talking to the checkout girl at the donut shop, haven't you lived anywhere where people own large dogs? Who occasionally get out and begin rampaging through the domestic cats in the neighborhood?
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby Cog » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 18:29:42

Sixstrings trusts the government to take care of all his financial and security needs. In his belief system, if we only had more government everyone would be happy and safe and guns would be totally unncessary.
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Re: Homeowners could be sued in Trayvon Martin case

Postby seenmostofit » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 18:34:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'S')ixstrings trusts the government to take care of all his financial and security needs. In his belief system, if we only had more government everyone would be happy and safe and guns would be totally unncessary.


How does that belief sit within the context of peak oil? Peak oil means the government will start rationing and managing the shortages at some point int time, and certainly the first people they will deprive of needed crude oil products will be joe six-pack. Does six strings have some special in with TPTB in terms of being taken care, even as the rest of the country is deprived?
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