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Head of General Motors want's gas tax raised $1

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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Pops » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 07:17:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')here is no mass transit in my area.

Mine either. If I didn't work at home I'd probably move.

Of course we'd use fuel taxes to build transit if we had any sense.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Cloud9 » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 07:44:27

Ok, raise the tax.
1. How long will I have to walk before I can catch a ride on it?
2. What percentage of the tax will be siphoned off by the bureaucracy that manages it?
3. What percentage of the money will be spent building bridges to no where?
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby vision-master » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 07:50:31

Tax for the war on terror, no? :lol:
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Lore » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 08:43:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')here is no mass transit in my area.

Mine either. If I didn't work at home I'd probably move.

Of course we'd use fuel taxes to build transit if we had any sense.


Almost every small community can be serviced by rail, denser populations by light rail. While I live in the woods, the nearest village being about 3 miles away, has a railway running through it. Well within the distance of a commute to the depot in an all electric vehicle or bicycle and I'm certainly not unique.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Cog » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 09:41:18

This thread is basically irrelevant since no major players in either party would dare to raise taxes during a recession. Plus it would be stupid to do so when the middle class and poverty class are struggling right now to pay their bills. Funny how the left forgets about those people when they want to engage in social engineering. If you wanted to raise gas taxes, the time to do that was about 10 years ago, not now.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby vision-master » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:02:36

Oh yeah, Governor Dayton (D) is NOT backing down from the rethugs. Looks to be a Gov shut-down starting July 1st, bc the richest 2% won't pay their fair share in income taxes in order to balance the State budget.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Lore » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:11:28

If you buy into the crisis of PO then it would make sense to spend your remaining resources, no matter your present condition, to eliminate the problem. Just as WW2 helped put the capper on the Great Depression.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby AdTheNad » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:12:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')his thread is basically irrelevant since no major players in either party would dare to raise taxes during a recession. Plus it would be stupid to do so when the middle class and poverty class are struggling right now to pay their bills. Funny how the left forgets about those people when they want to engage in social engineering. If you wanted to raise gas taxes, the time to do that was about 10 years ago, not now.

This whole website is basically irrelevant since no major players in either party would dare to do anything about peak oil until it is too late. It doesn't stop us speculating about what they should be doing, and any best case scenarios.

So putting up taxes on oil to the point where oil price equals its true value is a great idea. You should also put up taxes on coal to its true value as well as nuclear power and EVERYTHING else. The proceeds from the taxes can be redistributed equally to every living person. What's the point if everyone gets their money back you say? I'm glad you ask. The point is, sustainable energy sources become comparatively cheaper. Once everything costs its true value you can let the free market sort the rest out. Solar panels, wind power etc would ramp up becomes their true value is much cheaper that oil is anyway, and is how the free market would have reacted had we not discounted the future so much.

I understand that the price of solar power would also increase in price, to take into account the destruction of environments where the rare earth elements are mined, etc etc, however I think overall they would still come out cheaper. And if they don't that's great too, because when people pay the true costs for goods, rather than the subsidised and nonsensical prices we currently have, the markets become distorted in reflection with the best societal outcome.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby vision-master » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:15:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I')f you buy into the crisis of PO then it would make sense to spend your remaining resources, no matter your present condition, to eliminate the problem. Just as WW2 helped put the capper on the Great Depression.


That would be spiritual work too. :)
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Pops » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:40:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you wanted to raise gas taxes, the time to do that was about 10 years ago, not now.

Don't you remember, 10 years ago the right was busy giving away our kids future to the 1% and another goodly portion to Haliburton, oh, and for sure not negotiating on lifestyle because you can't conserve your way out of this, it takes a war or two.

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But I understand what you are saying, if we are entering the spiral of a perpetually shrinking economy due to depletion, the motto should be: me, me, me, keep your hands off my money, the grandkids are on their own: let 'em join the Army.
Come to think of it, that's been the motto of the Me Generation since The Gipper proclaimed greed was good, so to the grandkids we say: Its Morning in America, 1,000 points of light, city on the hill, Read My Lips, You Can't Get Fooled Again!


Funny, no matter the subject, the right wraps up in the flag, thumps on the Bible, waves a gun but always - always - clamps down on their money tighter than a frog's ass in canal water.

It's embarrassing.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Cog » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:42:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')his thread is basically irrelevant since no major players in either party would dare to raise taxes during a recession. Plus it would be stupid to do so when the middle class and poverty class are struggling right now to pay their bills. Funny how the left forgets about those people when they want to engage in social engineering. If you wanted to raise gas taxes, the time to do that was about 10 years ago, not now.

The proceeds from the taxes can be redistributed equally to every living person. What's the point if everyone gets their money back you say? I'm glad you ask. T


You seem to ignore something that is utterly simple about this increase in gas taxes. Those people who are struggling right now to pay rent or their mortgage can't wait a year to get a refund on the increased fuel taxes that they are paying today. If they live in an area where mass transit is not available, what the hell are they supposed to do for a year while they pay their increased fuel taxes to commute to a part-time minimum wage job?
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Cog » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 10:47:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you wanted to raise gas taxes, the time to do that was about 10 years ago, not now.

Don't you remember, 10 years ago the right was busy giving away our kids future to the 1% and another goodly portion to Haliburton, oh, and for sure not negotiating on lifestyle because you can't conserve your way out of this, it takes a war or two.

Image
CBPP

But I understand what you are saying, if we are entering the spiral of a perpetually shrinking economy due to depletion, the motto should be: me, me, me, keep your hands off my money, the grandkids are on their own: let 'em join the Army.
Come to think of it, that's been the motto of the Me Generation since The Gipper proclaimed greed was good, so to the grandkids we say: Its Morning in America, 1,000 points of light, city on the hill, Read My Lips, You Can't Get Fooled Again!


Funny, no matter the subject, the right wraps up in the flag, thumps on the Bible, waves a gun but always - always - clamps down on their money tighter than a frog's ass in canal water.

It's embarrassing.


You are arguing about what should have been. I am arguing about the current situation we find ourselves in. You want to further destroy the middle and poverty class by raising their costs to survive? Be my guest but don't come crying to me when unemployment escalates further.

We will get powerdown and use less fuel use in the USA but it will happen when the price of oil continues to rise and and crush our designed over-consumptive way of life. I see no need to accelerate power-down. The trend is already there.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Pops » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 12:15:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'Y')ou are arguing about what should have been.

I know, the right is all different now. It's like when we were kids (pre-wii) playing cowboys and "native Americans" and when you got shot you'd jump up and say "I'm a different guy now!" and go right back shooting at the other side.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')You want to further destroy the middle and poverty class by raising their costs to survive?

The middle class was sold by the right to capital years ago - it's not had a raise since Reagan and recent union busting is the coup de gras. The right couldn't give a rats patutie about poor people except for pandering to the most divisive social issues for votes - pandering to values takes no tax money btw. More recent examples of the rights overarching concern for their own money might include the current "courageous" plan of throwing grandma under the insurance bus while keeping the aforementioned tax cuts in place, or perhaps capping benefits to those poor unemployed freeloaders, another good one is Cheney's congressman who says PELL grants are welfare... I could go on endlessly but suffice to say I don't buy the sockpuppet act, better for the right to just be honest and say "We got ours so screw you".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')We will get powerdown and use less fuel use in the USA but it will happen when the price of oil continues to rise and and crush our designed over-consumptive way of life. I see no need to accelerate power-down. The trend is already there.

See this is where I think it gets hard for conservatives, in order to stick with the every man for himself - the market will provide - social darwinistic point of view, the only course available is to claw on to every last penny and let the whole thing go down the drain.

You'd really rather send that $1 to King Abdullah (or spend it in a war) than tax gas "preemptively" and build some light rail to the 'burbs?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby AgentR11 » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 13:14:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'Y')ou'd really rather send that $1 to King Abdullah (or spend it in a war) than tax gas "preemptively" and build some light rail to the 'burbs?


What would be so horrible about compromising, giving a lefty objective (higher gas taxes) and a righty objective (more military tip of the sword spending)? Something like that might even pass; but as is, you are asking righty politicians to vote for a lefty principle (higher gas taxes) in order to further another lefty objective (mass transit). Why in the heck would they agree to that.

To point out that such a thing couldn't even be passed when Obama and the Democrats controlled everything, and yet, now they don't but it is somehow objectionable to pursue some form of compromise because it is better to go down in flames, than advance any right wing political objective even the slightest amount.

Lets have a $2 / gal gas tax, and lets use the funds to build more military hardware and buy additional stockpiled supplies. Just let the tax provide the incentive to change the bad behavior (with location, pooling, telecommuting, cycling, etc). I get a warm, fuzzy feeling seeing the guys in gunships flight training every once in a while; whereas light-rail just makes me nauseous.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby highlander » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 13:41:15

You all are arguing over an antiquated model. taxing gas is so 1990's the new plan is to tax by miles driven, that way, all you electric car owners will get to pay for the roads you drive on.
Taxes will be raised. Taxes will be extended to all potential users. resistance is futile.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby AgentR11 » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 13:45:39

Taxes / mile would be more complicated to collect, and more subject to the consumer wanting to cheat. I prefer taxes which do not place the consumer in a position to be tempted to cheat.

*edit: In addition, the environmental and overseas military impact is more directly related to the quantity of gasoline burned; not the number of miles traveled. Roads are also mostly effected by vehicle weight which directly translates into lower mileage and more fuel burned thus higher per mile taxes anyway.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Cog » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 14:08:52

Raising taxes in this economic and politic environment is never going to happen. Might as well wish for E-Cat energy production while you are fantasizing.

The more realistic approach would be to mandate higher CAFE standards for cars and be done with it. We aren't running out of oil tomorrow or even in my life time. We have already run out of affordable fuel for the destroyed and soon to be eliminated middle class. Throw the cost back on the automakers where it belongs if you insist on social engineering.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Pops » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 14:20:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'W')hy in the heck would they agree to that.

Yeah, you and Cog are right, it is a moot point, this is not a generation prone to compromise and surely not sacrifice.

I guess the thing that irritates me most is how my generation has been given so much and seems to feel no remorse at leaving nothing but a husk to our kids. All I hears is "The government does nothing for me!" - taxes should only be used for my personal benefit, the "general welfare" be damned. Maybe I should take up religion, that seems to help with any feelings of self-recrimination at gluttony, greed, etc.

Even here at po.com, we bemoan the fact the US has self-organized around the car and sprawl and interstates and no one will argue that fact will be our kids biggest hurdle - but still, when it comes to talking about actually doing something the same old arguments come out: "What about MY taxmoney!"

We live under a social contract that gives benefit in return for forfeiting some amount of freedom. It seems the loudest howlers of "What about MY freedoms" (read "money") are the ones who've gained the most from the system.

They were born on third but tell themselves and everyone who'll listen they hit a triple.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Pops » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 14:21:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'W')e aren't running out of oil tomorrow or even in my life time.

There ya go, problem solved.
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Re: Head of GM want's gas tax raised $1

Postby Cog » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 14:26:23

@Pops

The sooner you embrace the inevitable doom, instead of grasping for solutions which are not there, the better off you will be. Have a beer and relax. It won't be that bad really. Cardboard is cheap cover and cornmeal makes a fine polenta meal.
Last edited by Cog on Tue 14 Jun 2011, 14:32:34, edited 1 time in total.
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