[Cog]

Expatriot has it exactly right.

Go have a beer and give up this futile effort to save BAU or some modified form of BAU. Ain't going to happen Don Quixote.

[Loki]

Meh, the same thing can be (and has been) said about peak oil. Assumptions about what can and cannot be done are just that: assumptions. I personally don't have much use for determinism.

Dohboi, keep up your climate change postings. If others fail to heed obvious warnings, that's their problem. I do wish we could get past the climate change "debate," though, and start talking more about personal preparedness strategies.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')More ignorant is wasting a lot of time and energy being militant about something you can't change.
It's all a question of perspective.

From your perspective, you're trying to "save the planet."
From my perspective, you're wasting your time.

So, if there was really a change that you could save the planet, then I'm the ignorant one. But if there is no chance that you can save the planet, then you're the ignorant one for wasting so much time and energy on it.

We're at the beach. We have made a beautiful sand castle together. We didn't expect the tide to come in, but now we notice that it is. The tide is coming in. And it's clear that the tide is going to sweep over our castle. You have spent the last 3 hours running up and down the beach screaming at people that we need to protect the castle. I, while loving the castle and all that it represents, understand that there is no way we can stop the tide. The castle will swept over. As you run up and down the beach kicking sand on people, screaming enough to scare off the gulls, I lounge in my beach chair and enjoy the day. When your screaming and carrying on gets to the point where I can't enjoy the day, I move to a new beach.

Point is, you and everybody like you can't change the fact that humans will burn every last drop of FF before they consider the climate in 5 years time. With FFs running out, the desire to burn them will increase, not decrease. You can't do anything to stop it. It will happen. As gasoline becomes more scare, the probability that what is available will be burned increases.

It's really as simple as that.

How effective have the beach screamers been since AGW came to the public's attention? Zero? Maybe a skoosh? You've built a small sand wall between the tide and your castle.

You run around screaming at everybody that they're ignorant, but you're the one who thinks you can get 7 billion people to stop burning coal and oil by showing them pictures of polar bears and pointing out that low lying areas of land will be under water in X number of years.

Wake up. Most people don't care, and won't be compelled to care unless it affect them directly.
Americans have been happy to rack up 14 trillion in debt that presumably will be foisted on others, in future earning groups. You think they give a flying ----k about polar bears?

Your fatal conceit is that you think that you can stop people from using the resources that they can access. You can't.

Figure that out, and you'll go get get yourself a nice beach chair and relax and enjoy the warm temps.

Until then, knock yourself out.

[Expatriot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I') really can't understand how focusing on one the gravest threats to ever face humanity is somehow a waste of time?

[Expatriot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'M')eh, the same thing can be (and has been) said about peak oil. Assumptions about what can and cannot be done are just that: assumptions.

[vision-master]

You sure seem to have this hard edge about you?

[Expatriot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'Y')ou sure seem to have this hard edge about you?

[AdTheNad]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')You won't change people.
You can't change people.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')
I tend to agree that there is little chance we will wake up and do what is right to mitigate peak oil. It would require the full authority, income, and force of the US government to get behind Marshal Plan II to install a viable alternative electricity-based infrastructure, electrify and drill trains lines through suburbia, forcibly move human populations and their personal nutrients close to agriculture systems, redistribute wealth and land, institute real social security--full medical care, etc.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')You won't change people.
You can't change people.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'f')orcibly move human populations and their personal nutrients close to agriculture systems, redistribute wealth and land, institute real social security--full medical care, etc.

[Pops]

Heh, the other leg of the "transatlantic corn and wheat trade in the 18th century" was slaves.

[dolanbaker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', 'T')he energy to transport food is actually quite minimal. We had a transatlantic corn and wheat trade in the 18th century. In fact it was so cheap the UK had to raise trade barriers. A ship or train moving slowly can move huge masses at relatively little energy expenditure.

[Cog]

pstarr wants to:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'r')edistribute wealth and land

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolanbaker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', 'T')he energy to transport food is actually quite minimal. We had a transatlantic corn and wheat trade in the 18th century. In fact it was so cheap the UK had to raise trade barriers. A ship or train moving slowly can move huge masses at relatively little energy expenditure.

[Pops]

It's easy to toss off a line like "Ships have been sailing for years." without considering scale.

The thing is, in 1800 there were maybe a billion people in the entire world and very few of them were dependent on long distance shipping to survive. Today the US exports 1.7 billion bushels of corn per year and some portion of the 7 billion people on the planet rely on that corn (not to mention all the other transported food) to survive.

At say 40bu/ton thats 42M tons or 23,611 - 1800's size sailing ships worth of corn – just corn, just from the US – that's a lot of ships.

Stuff that worked fine for a billion is going to be hard to scale to 10 billion without energy slaves, that's why I thought it was ironic that the slave trade was integral to the example of Atlantic trade you mentioned.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Victo ... ime_Museum

[Loki]

Dorlomin, interesting about the triangle trade, had read about it years ago but don't recall any details.

It's true that ships and trains can transport large amounts of food. I'm personally more concerned about local/regional distribution, which is done primarily by truck. I'll be driving a delivery truck full of vegetables all day tomorrow, so I have some interest in the subject

The ease of global transport of food commodities can lead to obscenities like malnutrition and outright starvation in Argentina while they shipped massive quantities of soybeans across the seas to feed Chinese cows. I don't think the US will be immune from this kind of stuff in the future.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom the nutritional point of view, Argentina shows a contradictory picture characterised by the coexistence of malnutrition and excess food production. Argentina ranks fifth among food exporting countries in the world. However, the prevalence of chronic malnutrition (expressed as stunting prevalence) varies according to the geographical regions with the highest prevalence in the north eastern and western provinces as a clear expression of social inequity.

The Argentinean paradox: the case of contradictory child malnutrition epidemics. J Epidemiol Community Health 2003;57:83

[ralfy]

Lore is right, as peak oil, climate change (including environmental damage), and the debt crisis are connected to each other. What is illogical is to isolate one problem from the others or to ignore them.