Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Gas-to-Liquids (GTL)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.
Post a reply

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:26:39

Tony, yes I knew about the marketed production vs. gross withdrawals issue. I've seen just as many people cite gross withdrawals as they do marketed production, so I'm not sure it's a big deal. Gross withdrawals, IMO, are somewhat more interesting for these gas-production discussions because they show how much NG drillers are actually able to suck out of the ground, rather than merely how much they've been able to sell.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Maddog78 » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:30:50

**Sigh** I don't know why I even bother with pstarr anymore but I'll give it one more shot.

Gasoline was selling here in OK just a few months ago for $1.79/gal.
It's only just above 2 bucks now.
There is currently a glut of oil. cushing is nearly overflowing. Production is being purposely scaled back.

Why bother making all those changes you mentioned with a scenario like that?
Just because they are not happening now doesn't mean they can't and won't happen at some higher price point for crude in the future.

OK, that's my last reply to pstarr, the doom warrior who never leaves his house anymore. :)
User avatar
Maddog78
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby shortonsense » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:34:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheAntiDoomer', '
')short, we should cut pstarr some slack, I mean if you had wasted most of your life/money building some doomstead in the middle of nowhere for a doom that was never to happend you'd be pretty bitter as well.


Yikes...I didn't realize that was the case. That would certainly explain quite a bit of his behavior and odd insistence at denying current events and whats been happening in the world.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby shortonsense » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:36:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')nti I don't think Short will be back here for a while. A long while :?
Once again he has been made a fool of.


You were saying, Mr "Scraping It Off The Rocks Because They Don't Really Teach Science At Teaching Schools"?
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:40:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')hat is your point? Please present evidence natural gas is replacing liquid petroleum in a significant amount that will offset 6% annual post-peak declines rates. I need to see trends and conversions to natural-gas heavy long-haul diesel trucks, train locomotives, the US auto fleet, farm tractors, heavy excavators, irrigation pumps, and the myriad other necessary equipment that makes America run and play.

Please hurry with your numbers. We've most likely just peaked.

God, you are such a complete dimwit it isn't funny. Maybe if I repeat this stuff a zillion more times it'll sink in. Though I doubt it. All you'd have to do is follow the Natural Gas Vehicles Thread and you might learn something.

>>> Waste Management Grows Fleet of Natural Gas Garbage Trucks <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ationally, Waste Management already has 265 CNG and has 418 LNG (liquified natural gas) vehicles; and by the end of 2009, the company expects to have 500 LNG vehicles and 299 CNG vehicles in service.


>>> UPS Deploys 167 Compressed Natural Gas Trucks <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ore than 800 CNG vehicles are already in use by UPS in the Untied States. While previous CNG trucks were converted from gasoline and diesel vehicles in the 1980s to run on alternative fuels, these new vehicles are manufactured explicitly for alternative-fuel use. They're expected to reduce emissions by 20 percent, and improve fuel economy by 10 percent, compared with the cleanest diesel engines you can get today.


>>> The trash is greener: Hamilton trucks running on natural gas <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')arbage collection has traditionally been carried out by diesel-fueled trucks, but as of today, Hamilton’s trash will begin being picked up by natural gas trucks, according to Frank Fiumefreddo Jr., the owner of Central Jersey Waste and Recycling.

The township last year awarded Fiumefreddo’s company a five-year contract to collect solid waste. Bencivengo wanted the township to adopt an environmentally friendly approach, so his administration required Central Jersey Waste and Recycling to eventually replace its diesel fuel trucks with trucks fueled by natural gas or 100 percent biodiesel.


>>> Ports get Daimler natural-gas trucks <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')OS ANGELES -- Local civic and business leaders, executives from Daimler Trucks North America and members of the press gathered under tents here at the Ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles complex Monday to mark the delivery of 132 new natural gas (NG)-fueled tractors to drivers who contract with California Cartage Company, as well as 100 new NG trucks for the Ports’ Clean Truck Program. The event also marked the official debut of Daimler’s Set Back 113 NG truck.


>>> Seattle's garbage trucks to run on natural gas <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow the city seeks to despoil less of the atmosphere by converting its garbage-truck fleet from diesel to compressed natural gas (CNG) under new hauling contracts starting March 30.

One contractor, Seattle-based CleanScapes, is buying 40 CNG trucks and building a fueling stop in Georgetown. The other, transcontinental giant Waste Management, is buying 106 trucks to be fueled in South Park.

[...]

Waste Management has more than 600 natural-gas trucks in California, and the Seattle program is part of its national environmental initiative, said Susan Robinson, regional director for public-sector services. "We have a goal of reducing emissions associated with our fleet by 15 percent," she said.
Last edited by copious.abundance on Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:43:11, edited 1 time in total.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby shortonsense » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:41:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', 'H')ubbert says we have thousands of years of nuclear isotopes to make up for whatever we lack in fossil fuels, I don't suppose Hirsch ever got around to refuting that particular EXPERT GEOSCIENCE opinion did he?
This is a bit OT but there's an interesting article about nuclear on The Oil Drum. Here's the concluding paragraph:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e can thus conclude Part I: Nuclear Fission Energy Today, with the statement that publicly available official data are inconsistent with the widespread belief that the world is in a "Nuclear Energy Renaissance" phase. In reality, the data about uranium mining and the large number of aging nuclear reactors indicate that the trend of a 1% annual decrease of fission produced TWhe will continue at least up until 2015. In fact, the increasingly serious uranium supply situation might even lead to a forced nuclear shutdown of perhaps 5% of the world-wide reactors, most likely in countries without sufficient domestic uranium mining and enrichment facilities. Such a result would certainly end the widespread belief in a bright future for nuclear fission energy.
The article is by Michael Dittmar, a researcher with the Institute of Particle Physics of ETH Zurich, and he also works at CERN in Geneva.


Please reference Mr Dittmar's experience in the field of resource assessment, which was the topic of Hubberts 1956 paper. It strikesme that to refute Hubbert, you need more than just the gang at TOD or a nucelar physicist. But round up a decent resource guy and we can talk.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby shortonsense » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:43:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'B')ut this thread is about all that unused natural gas replacing declining petroleum reserves. It isn't.


One step at a time my myopic and science impaired hermit friend, one step at a time.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Maddog78 » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:46:15

Ha, OF2, you have far more patience with him than I do.
Nice links, I personally wouldn't have bothered to find those links to put in his face.
I'm sure there will be something said along the lines of, "That is only .01% of all the heavy trucks in USA so it's insignificant and we are all doomed." :lol:
User avatar
Maddog78
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 14:58:39

You can even transport compressed natural gas in a truck. Yessiree, your local "gas" station doesn't even need to be next to a gas pipeline!

8O :shock: :shock: 8O :? 8O

>>> Big picture <<<

You can buy some of those cylinders here. :shock:

Or, you can also transport liquified natural gas via a truck, if u want to! :shock: :?

>>> Another big picture <<

AMAZING!! 8O :shock: 8O No nearby pipeline needed! :shock:
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 15:33:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'A')s for me, I'm absolutely DELIGHTED that I've learned that NG appears poised to save our collective FANNIES
Except that you haven't learned that. If you actually think you have then you are falling into the cornucopian trap of believing every story about resource supplies are accurate and will play out exactly as they hope.

All the excitement is about US supplies which, in global terms doesn't change the picture much. It also says little about flow rates or how investment in nat gas infrastructure will be made. Why would private, or even public funds be used to build infrastructure for a dead end product? I suppose nothing has been learned by the peaking of oil production so I suppose that kind of future-less investment may be made.

But just don't expect that your collective fannies have been saved, in any way. Wait for the actual data as it emerges, don't rely on the wishful thinking (and misleading presentation) of others.
User avatar
TonyPrep
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 15:37:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'T')he article also points out that depening on your assumptions, just using NG available in the US, replacing ALL the gasoline used in cars in the US will allow NG to last for roughly 20 to 50 years.
That was a throw away figure that took no account of growth or of likely production rates.
(I will assume you are in the doomer camp from this comment).
Until people start realising that this planet is finite, that's probably a fair assumption. If people realise that the planet is finite, I will switch camps. As, probably, will you. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'I')f you will review the figures published all over the place for the past decade, you'll see that dry NG supplies and production rates are generally accelerating upwards.
Not sure about globally but, in the US, that's only been true for a few years, but still below peak, in terms of the gas that makes it to market.
User avatar
TonyPrep
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 15:39:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'T')ony, yes I knew about the marketed production vs. gross withdrawals issue. I've seen just as many people cite gross withdrawals as they do marketed production, so I'm not sure it's a big deal. Gross withdrawals, IMO, are somewhat more interesting for these gas-production discussions because they show how much NG drillers are actually able to suck out of the ground, rather than merely how much they've been able to sell.
As I've mentioned previously, the marketed figure extracts that gas that is used on site to produce the gas. Marketed doesn't necessarily mean sold. Check the EIA definitions, for more detail.

Marketed production is the more useful figure, so I don't know why you insist on the gross figure, except to try to make an artificial point.
User avatar
TonyPrep
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 15:40:04

Here's another one: 8,000 CNG vehicles! 8O
>>> AT&T Begins Deployment of Domestic-Fuelled CNG Vehicles <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')omestic US natural gas will fuel 600 Ford E-Series vans for AT&T Inc. before end of 2009. The first step toward AT&T’s declared goal of purchasing 8,000 CNG vehicles (15,000 new alternative fuel vehicles in total) is now underway, with natural gas vehicle upfits being carried out by Dallas-based BAF Technologies. AT&T’s investment (USD $565 million) represents the largest U.S. corporate commitment to CNG vehicles to date.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 15:41:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'A')s I've mentioned previously, the marketed figure extracts that gas that is used on site to produce the gas. Marketed doesn't necessarily mean sold. Check the EIA definitions, for more detail.

Marketed production is the more useful figure, so I don't know why you insist on the gross figure, except to try to make an artificial point.

You could be right. I assumed marketed meant "sold," but I'll check the definition.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 15:53:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'G')asoline was selling here in OK just a few months ago for $1.79/gal.
It's only just above 2 bucks now.
There is currently a glut of oil. cushing is nearly overflowing. Production is being purposely scaled back.
I don't know about glut. EIA estimates for global production and consumption don't support that view, as production has been cut back.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'W')hy bother making all those changes you mentioned with a scenario like that?
Good point. So you can see that economic considerations will always trump reality. The longer it's left, the less likely it is to occur. If oil production can be ramped up over the coming few years, as the economy slowly recovers, there will be less room for natural gas to increase production to cope with oil declines. Not only that but I'm sure investments will, even then, be delayed as economic recovery brings another spike in oil prices and another recession.

That's aside from the questions that pstarr raises about the ability to make all the changes that the cornies hope for.
User avatar
TonyPrep
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2842
Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Maddog78 » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 16:08:54

.............and your last post supports a doom scenario?

Economic considerations are that fossil fuel energy is dirt cheap right now.
There is a glut in the U.S. Cushing storage is nearing capacity.
It looks to remain so for a while and if that changes it will be fairly easy to switch many things over to n. gas which looks to remain cheap for quite a few years if not decades.
Hardly a recipe for doom.
User avatar
Maddog78
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 17:52:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', '.')............and your last post supports a doom scenario?

Economic considerations are that fossil fuel energy is dirt cheap right now.
There is a glut in the U.S. Cushing storage is nearing capacity.
It looks to remain so for a while and if that changes it will be fairly easy to switch many things over to n. gas which looks to remain cheap for quite a few years if not decades.
Hardly a recipe for doom.


MD78, Do you have a chart anywhere handy showing how much Methane or Propane you can dissolve in Gasoline with a simple pressure tank? What I am looking for is, if you used a liquid propane tank like the ones they use on Forklifts on your car and filled it half full of gasoline while it was at atmospheric pressure how much CH4 or C3H8 could you pump in under pressure? I am sure it is less than you could add if you didn't put the gasoline in first, but I am also aware that back in the 1900-1925 era gasoline often had Propane in its formula straight from the refinery.

I was thinking that if you didn't want to go with straight Natural Gas or Propane you could dissolve it on your gasoline and still get a benefit from it as a fuel extender.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17094
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Maddog78 » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 20:21:21

Hmmm, no, sorry I don't have anything like that.
User avatar
Maddog78
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 06 Aug 2009, 12:50:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '[')What I am looking for is, if you used a liquid propane tank like the ones they use on Forklifts on your car and filled it half full of gasoline while it was at atmospheric pressure how much CH4 or C3H8 could you pump in under pressure? I am sure it is less than you could add if you didn't put the gasoline in first, but I am also aware that back in the 1900-1925 era gasoline often had Propane in its formula straight from the refinery.

I was thinking that if you didn't want to go with straight Natural Gas or Propane you could dissolve it on your gasoline and still get a benefit from it as a fuel extender.


That's an interesting idea, but what about safety concerns?

Today, it's actually very rare for ordinary passenger cars to catch fire after wrecks, given how sheltered the gas tanks are. And even if the gas trickles out of a tank leak, it isn't a disaster as long as open flame or sparks aren't introduced.

Also, I've seen a television documentary on alternative energy for cars where they demonstrated actually introducing flame to a contrived leak in a NG car. It burned - like a big candle - it didn't explode or even progress. The NG car expert being interviewed claimed this would be normal - nice and safe.

Now, introduce gasoline in a tank under high pressure saturated with Methane or another gaseous hydrocarbon? That sounds like a recipe for an explosion in a crash/rupture scenario. Even if not, spraying gasoline around isn't exactly appealing. Unless it produced AMAZING efficiency results, I'm betting the risk-averse lawyers would insist on taking a big pass.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY
Top

Re: Natural Gas can not replace depleting petroleum reserves.

Unread postby Maddog78 » Thu 06 Aug 2009, 14:14:24

What do you care? You never leave your house anyways.
Ha, I'll never see because I never look. :lol:
User avatar
Maddog78
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



cron