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Forks Over Knives

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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Narz » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 03:03:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')f a herbivore diet would have promoted longevity and survival of the species then hominids would have employed it.

Not necessarily. Evolution doesn't care about longevity, as long as you can reproduce. Meat is concentrated calories but it's not necessary anymore in our abundant age.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:33:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'I')t matters not whether it's hard to consume 3500 calories of plant-based food or not. Smoking causes lung cancer but it's hard to quit. This really isn't that hard to follow...


Of course its not hard to follow; but it *DOES* matter that smoking is hard to quit, and it *DOES* matter that it is hard to consume 3500 Cal of plant based food. Basically what you are trying to suggest is that anything that is presented that is a challenge to the sustainability of a daily activity is irrelevant if the result of that activity is desirable. This flies directly in the face of everything we know about human behavior. If it were true, there would be no overweight people; there would be only a very few with diabetes (honestly broken pancreas), heart disease and emphysema would be extremely rare. But they are. Because the difficulty of a suggested good behavior *IS* relevant. I'd suggest to you, that not only is it relevant, but that it is the most critical component. Belief or not, accept or not; THOSE are irrelevant in the face of behavior challenge.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:44:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'H')ave you ever tried to eat 3500 cal of pasta????????

Thats over 2 KG of food.

I was at a wedding dinner with a guy who was a semi-pro cyclist. This skinny guy slurped down a massive plate of pasta.

But most people doing heavy labor on a vegetarian diet would look like any third world peasant with an average height of maybe 5'4".

Heck up until the 1950s, popular novels like detective stories described "six feet tall" and "two hundred pound" men a giants, the way would describe someone 6'7" today.

Were people healthier when their growth was stunted by 6 or 8 inches?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:01:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ersonally, I can do the nut thing for about 6 weeks. Then I'm done. Past that point, I'd rather starve and not move.

Unless you're an athlete you're probably not going to be burning 3500 Cal/day.


I'm eating at or near 3500 Cal / day, and I'm dropping a pound a week (for the last 8 months, yeah, I flirted with Ice Cream last year! lol) Anyway, as I approach my target weight, this has become an interesting subject for me; how to maintain current output, eat healthy, but also stop the weight loss. It doesn't matter at the moment that I'm burning 4k-5k Cal /day, since I still have about 5 more pounds of body fat to lose, but it will matter in about a month. Because not only will I be at or below my desired weight, it'll also be summer, with more miles of riding, at lower thermodynamic efficiency and an even greater caloric expenditure.

This is doubly relevant in the Peak Oil context, as substituting biking miles for driving miles is a reasonable adaptation; most especially for urban and town dwelling people. (I'm a small towny type, fwiw). That means using food calories instead of petroleum.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;vegan diet that a normal person could tolerate continuously" is pretty vague. There is as much variety as you're willing to find.

As I've noted, if you are fine on 1500-2500 Cal per day, Vegan is awesome; tons of variety, volume is tolerable.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m not vegan now, I occasionally eat some salmon & use eggs in recipes & organic butter (but no milk). I don't miss beef or chicken at all. Going vegetarian is easy, dealing with a gluten intolerance, that's hard!


This is the more typical, and REALISTIC answer. *BUTTER*. 7+Cal / g. Complete game changer... BUT not Vegan.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:21:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '.')..but it *DOES* matter that smoking is hard to quit...

It DOES not. We are talking about data, correlation, and causation. Is it good data or not?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '.')..and it *DOES* matter that it is hard to consume 3500 Cal of plant based food

It DOES not. Also, I don't agree with your premise that it's any more difficult to eat 3500 on a vegan diet. For some, yes, OK...but again, irrelevant. Furthermore, most people don't need 3500 calories.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'B')asically what you are trying to suggest is that anything that is presented that is a challenge to the sustainability of a daily activity is irrelevant if the result of that activity is desirable.

No I am not. Any challenges to becoming a vegan have absolutely nothing to do with the data to which I have referenced. Also, you seem to miss the fact that there are millions of vegans and that it's not a challenge for many. You want to fixate the matter on the notion that there are some high-caloric athletes who have a hard time with a vegan diet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')his flies directly in the face of everything we know about human behavior. If it were true, there would be no overweight people; there would be only a very few with diabetes (honestly broken pancreas), heart disease and emphysema would be extremely rare. But they are. Because the difficulty of a suggested good behavior *IS* relevant. I'd suggest to you, that not only is it relevant, but that it is the most critical component. Belief or not, accept or not; THOSE are irrelevant in the face of behavior challenge.

You have crossed over into a very complex area, human behavior. Part of the reason many Americans eat what they eat is because the food industry knows how the mind and body works and they concoct food that is 'addictive', for lack of a better word. The best analogy is smoking tobacco. There is correlation and causation between smoking and lung cancer. It's very hard for many to quit. Such a fact doesn't change the fact that smoking causes cancer...

For what it's worth, I think the processed food, dairy, and Frankenmeat are the problem. I don't see as much of a problem with the natural meat (eg. wild fish), unless the quantity is high...

You may want to consider studying philosophy and logic, if you haven't already, so that you can build stronger arguments. I understand a bit what you are trying to say, but I really don't see the relevance. If you want to create another thread discussing human behavior and its role in our diet, I'd be happy to participate if I have anything to offer...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:36:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')his is the more typical, and REALISTIC answer. *BUTTER*. 7+Cal / g. Complete game changer... BUT not Vegan.

If butter is a game changer, have you considered olive oil? It has 120 calories per Tbsp. If you don't like olive oil, then you may want to use an oil you like...just make sure it's a healthy oil (I don't know enough about all the oils).
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 13:19:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')his is the more typical, and REALISTIC answer. *BUTTER*. 7+Cal / g. Complete game changer... BUT not Vegan.

If butter is a game changer, have you considered olive oil? It has 120 calories per Tbsp. If you don't like olive oil, then you may want to use an oil you like...just make sure it's a healthy oil (I don't know enough about all the oils).


Listed it in one of my first comments about this problem. Specifically, I listed nuts, oil, and oil seeds. Again, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but it *IS* possible to get the 3500+ Cal/day and be Vegan, but it becomes very difficult to sustain after a month or two; even the quoted highly respected Dr above made the same basic point. This doesn't mean impossible, it means difficult, as in challenging. It also means lightly motivated individuals needing that level of input will almost certainly fail trying to be Vegan; thus motivation and behavior BECOME RELEVANT. An individuals inability to sustain a vegan input at this level will almost certainly have nothing to do with whether or not they accept and care about the premise of it being healthier. And it is certainly not something they could pull off casually simply by selecting things that look plant based; like those burning 1500-2500 Cal can do.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 13:35:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '.')..but it *DOES* matter that smoking is hard to quit...

It DOES not. We are talking about data, correlation, and causation. Is it good data or not?


I see your problem with my argument here. You are thinking that I am asserting that a vegan diet is unlikely to improve health. In point of fact, I have stated that I would suspect a large majority of Americans would achieve a health improvement on a Vegan diet. In this very thread.

I do *NOT* NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT disagree with the assertion concerning health; my point is about its feasibility in high output adults. You assertion is that IF one does not choose a vegan'esque path, then they either do not accept the conclusion, or do not care about degenerative disease prevention. It is that assertion (or accusation almost) that I object to, strenuously.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')urthermore, most people don't need 3500 calories.

And I've already pointed out that most people would likely achieve a health improvement on a vegan diet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')You want to fixate the matter on the notion that there are some high-caloric athletes who have a hard time with a vegan diet.


You do not need to be an athlete to burn in excess of 3500 Cal / day. Any male, manual laborer over 150 lbs will do it in the course of a regular day's work. Or are these people beneath your consideration since they can not afford to shop at Whole Foods?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou may want to consider studying philosophy and logic,

I have specifically, IN THIS THREAD, stated that conclusion regarding health is likely correct; what is false is your characterization of why people would choose not to change to a vegan diet. You make an assertion there, that not only do you not prove, but one that pretty much can not be proven.

My logic is fine. What has failed is that you have ASSUMED I am arguing against the notion that "vegan is healthier" for most. This is a false assumption.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 14:03:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')his is the more typical, and REALISTIC answer. *BUTTER*. 7+Cal / g. Complete game changer... BUT not Vegan.

If butter is a game changer, have you considered olive oil? It has 120 calories per Tbsp. If you don't like olive oil, then you may want to use an oil you like...just make sure it's a healthy oil (I don't know enough about all the oils).


Listed it in one of my first comments about this problem. Specifically, I listed nuts, oil, and oil seeds. Again, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but it *IS* possible to get the 3500+ Cal/day and be Vegan, but it becomes very difficult to sustain after a month or two; even the quoted highly respected Dr above made the same basic point. This doesn't mean impossible, it means difficult, as in challenging. It also means lightly motivated individuals needing that level of input will almost certainly fail trying to be Vegan; thus motivation and behavior BECOME RELEVANT. An individuals inability to sustain a vegan input at this level will almost certainly have nothing to do with whether or not they accept and care about the premise of it being healthier. And it is certainly not something they could pull off casually simply by selecting things that look plant based; like those burning 1500-2500 Cal can do.

I have no doubt that YOU are challenged and that SOME others are challenged, but once again, it is NOT relevant to the data. The data does not say "you must become a vegan" or "3500 calories a day on a vegan diet is simple". Based on what little I know of you, it seems you should not be on a vegan diet. You can still eat much healthier (sounds like you are) than most Americans, with or without meat. Again, I eat meat (a little fish here and there)...

Regarding respected doctors...they are not all in agreement. Also, doctors are not scientists. Western doctors generally assess and treat symptoms. I have great disdain for the American health care system and don't have much respect for American doctors in general (I don't know enough about Canada's health care and health of its population). I have less respect for doctors who have a bunch of cheesy websites with all sorts of advertisements (pro vegan or not). Clearly, his agenda is to make money, not necessarily spread good, scientific data. It doesn't mean his information is bad, it's just a rule of thumb I follow. I have a similar critique for Forks Over Knives for not just giving out the information or just collecting enough to pay for the study and for production (which may be the case). This goes to a larger issue that is not relevant to this discussion, but profit and health are mutually exclusive. Sick people are HIGHLY profitable. So, it's no surprise that a profit-driven economy has yielded one of the sickest people and the most expensive health care systems...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 15:02:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'i')t is NOT relevant to the data.


It is not relevant to the data.
It is ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT to its applicability to human behavior.

You make an accusation towards people who do not use a vegan diet that is both offensive and unprovable. And yet expect people to not call you on it. As long as you keep insisting now that its irrelevant, I will continue to call you on this mischaracterization.

If one does not use a vegan diet, that does NOT imply that they do not accept the data; and it does NOT imply that they do not care about preventing "degenerative" disease.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 15:04:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') see your problem with my argument here. You are thinking that I am asserting that a vegan diet is unlikely to improve health. In point of fact, I have stated that I would suspect a large majority of Americans would achieve a health improvement on a Vegan diet. In this very thread.

No, I am not thinking that. The problem I have with your argument is that your point is irrelevant. You are focused on your personal diet which is of course relevant to you and others that are similar to you. However, your personal situation has zero relevance on the data that links animal-based protein and disease...absolutely none.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'Y')ou assertion is that IF one does not choose a vegan'esque path, then they either do not accept the conclusion, or do not care about degenerative disease prevention. It is that assertion (or accusation almost) that I object to, strenuously.

That is not my assertion. It is your erroneous inference. I can only speculate as to why you are drawing such conclusions based on what I've tried to present, but it seems that it's personal because of your struggles with wanting to eat healthy while getting the calories you need. I do think there are some that don't care about disease and willfully ignore good information (I was one of those persons), but I don't think it's relevant to the data.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'Y')ou do not need to be an athlete to burn in excess of 3500 Cal / day. Any male, manual laborer over 150 lbs will do it in the course of a regular day's work. Or are these people beneath your consideration since they can not afford to shop at Whole Foods?

The average caloric intake of Americans is below 3000. No, manual laborers are not beneath my consideration but I do not agree with you that all these workers will have a hard time getting the calories they need on a vegan diet. I accept that YOU have a hard time and that others might have a hard time. Regarding the affordability of healthy food...it's really a sad state of affairs. The healthier food is actually a lower overall cost to society. It's the cheap food that is VERY expensive. Perhaps all those that are on food stamps should consider channeling that money to healthier food?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') have specifically, IN THIS THREAD, stated that conclusion regarding health is likely correct; what is false is your characterization of why people would choose not to change to a vegan diet. You make an assertion there, that not only do you not prove, but one that pretty much can not be proven.

My logic is fine. What has failed is that you have ASSUMED I am arguing against the notion that "vegan is healthier" for most. This is a false assumption.

I'm not exactly sure what my assertion is regarding why people would choose not to change? I've tried to figure out what stops people from accepting information and adjusting in general. I have my ideas on that, but I'm not sure I've asserted them here (perhaps I have). What I've tried to assert is correlation and causation between animal-based protein and disease. I'm not sure anyone responded with information that showed the flaw in the study (which I've tried to find). Also, I think only one post actually referred to the movie in the title of the thread. Rather, we got a bunch of militant, anti-vegan posts with all sorts of erroneous statements, wrong inferences, and bogus conclusions. It (such responses) is a very interesting phenomenon that I think is at the heart of many problems we face...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 15:13:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'Y')ou don't have to use it or accept it. You're not interested in trying to prevent degenerative disease. I just wish the rest of us didn't have to pick up the tab. In case you haven't noticed, America has the highest per capita health care costs. I wonder if diet has anything to do with it?


You wrote it. I called you on it. You apparently don't like it.

You assert that I am not trying to prevent degenerative disease.

You know that HOW?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 15:15:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'i')t is NOT relevant to the data.


It is not relevant to the data.
It is ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT to its applicability to human behavior.

You make an accusation towards people who do not use a vegan diet that is both offensive and unprovable. And yet expect people to not call you on it. As long as you keep insisting now that its irrelevant, I will continue to call you on this mischaracterization.

If one does not use a vegan diet, that does NOT imply that they do not accept the data; and it does NOT imply that they do not care about preventing "degenerative" disease.

Ah, I think I understand now. Yes, I think there are individuals who willfully ignore good information to preserve their way of life. However, such a statement is not saying that those that are not vegans are all willfully ignorant (some are, some aren't). You are a good example of the latter. You tried it, had a hard time with it, so you adopted a diet more suitable to you. I am in no way suggesting that you don't care about disease. The ignorance comment above was in regard to your statement, which implied it was near impossible for a 3500 calorie diet to be vegan. I disagree with this latter implication. It was hard for you. I'd have no problem eating 3500 calories on a vegan diet if I actually needed it...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 15:24:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'Y')ou don't have to use it or accept it. You're not interested in trying to prevent degenerative disease. I just wish the rest of us didn't have to pick up the tab. In case you haven't noticed, America has the highest per capita health care costs. I wonder if diet has anything to do with it?


You wrote it. I called you on it. You apparently don't like it.

You assert that I am not trying to prevent degenerative disease.

You know that HOW?

Ah! I was talking about the collective you, but you are right and I apologize for lumping that onto you. A vegan diet will help prevent disease and there are plenty of folk out there that simply ignore the situation. You're just not one of those persons. I know plenty that do ignore the situation. They say things like, "life is short, who cares". It is this latter attitude (i.e. social irresponsibility), towards just about everything, that is pervasive in American culture and a huge part of the overall problem associated with peak oil...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Pops » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 16:03:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'T')he ignorance on this site is palpable.

Not necessary.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 16:09:13

Cool beans. Glad that is cleared up.

I have a bit of a quibble with using such a vague term as "degenerative", as well as claiming vegan credit for results that could simply be traced to inactive people removing excess calories, refined sugar, and deep-fat fryer oil from their diets.

I am supportive of the general notion that if you could get the average American paper pusher to drop the big mac and select the salad and unsweatened tea; most would be far better off.

My personal gripe with Whole Foods may have something to do with a $3 daikon of lower quality than I've ever seen in any daikon, anywhere. But at the time, I had no choice. But I think we're using the name as a stand in for fresh produce of decent quality...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 16:11:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'T')he ignorance on this site is palpable.

Not necessary.

It's a factual statement and relevant. You don't know how to effectively moderate this board. I stopped posting here primarily because of you. You allow all the viciousness of others, but comment on a factual statement I make because I'm not a regular. Who's moderating you?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 16:29:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'M')y personal gripe with Whole Foods may have something to do with a $3 daikon of lower quality than I've ever seen in any daikon, anywhere.


My gripe with WF would be on the quality of their garlic. It's really not up to par at our location.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 16:39:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'C')ool beans. Glad that is cleared up.

I have a bit of a quibble with using such a vague term as "degenerative", as well as claiming vegan credit for results that could simply be traced to inactive people removing excess calories, refined sugar, and deep-fat fryer oil from their diets.

I am supportive of the general notion that if you could get the average American paper pusher to drop the big mac and select the salad and unsweatened tea; most would be far better off.

My personal gripe with Whole Foods may have something to do with a $3 daikon of lower quality than I've ever seen in any daikon, anywhere. But at the time, I had no choice. But I think we're using the name as a stand in for fresh produce of decent quality...

Yeah, thanks for clearing it up. It's a problem I encounter often because I tend to address issues from a cultural perspective or an overall population perspective, which I think is legitimate. So, I might critique America's educational system and be accurate, but a teacher who is excellent might take offense. Also, 'ignorance' isn't a horrible, nasty, unusable word. We are all ignorant and we need to all recognize that.

Yeah, I totally agree that health and well-being is holistic. The reductionist approach that science takes can be lacking when it comes to nutrition. It is for this reason that I liked The China Study because it examined quite an extensive amount of data on real human populations. Is it 100% conclusive...absolutely not. However, I think it is extremely useful information...

I do shop at Whole Foods, but I recognize they are not perfect. I'm trying to work my way into local sustainable agriculture. I started volunteering with a local farm and hope to find full time work. It's quite a shift for me since my education and experience is in mechanical engineering...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 17:56:24

I have suffered from catarrh since my teens.

In my late teens I found a 'cure'. It was based on chinese medicine and a very strict almost vegan diet with low sugar and carbs and no dairy producsts and very little meat/fish.

It cured the catarrh but I love food and the regime made me miserable, I couldn't have lived my life under such a regime.

So I now offend people with occasional grolching sounds and can't eat chocolate without feeling a bit sick. WTF. :)
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