[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'h')ey pstarr....you say that humans must eat meat. Perhaps SOME humans must eat meat, but there are healthy, active, strong vegans out there. Do you consider these latter folk anomalies...?

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'A')nother consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'A')lthough I was aware of the inhumane and disgusting treatment of animals by humans, I had not seen it portrayed so completely and poignantly as in Earthlings.

[Loki]

Ha, look at that, Pretorian has a heart after all. I thoroughly agree, well said.

Pstarr, humans don’t have to eat meat, though I agree that the healthiest diet probably includes some animal products. But these can be limited to dairy and eggs, hopefully humanely raised. Of course, dairy and egg production is almost always done in conjunction with meat production, so ovo-lacto vegetarianism is admittedly a bit of a cop out. I have heard of people letting their spent laying hens die of old age, though

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'A')nother consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

[WildRose]

So, on preliminary study of the metabolic syndrome (thanks for that, pstarr, I found it useful and relevant, especially as I am a postmenopausal woman and need to keep this in check), I ran across this description of the Mediterranean diet, which is supposed to be a healthy one. Note, though, that there is an emphasis on fruits and veggies, nuts, grains, beans and seeds, and little red meat is eaten. Wine is good, though

"Mediterranean diet: A diet traditionally followed in Greece, Crete, southern France, and parts of Italy that emphasizes fruits and vegetables, nuts, grains, olive oil (as opposed to butter) and grilled or steamed chicken and seafood (as opposed to red meat). Plus a glass or two of red wine.

To be exact, there is not merely one Mediterranean diet. What is eaten varies significantly from one Mediterranean country to another. There also are major differences in diet between some regions within a country, as in Italy. However, the shared features of what is usually spoken of as the Mediterranean-style diet are as follows:

High consumption of fruits, vegetables, bread and other cereals, potatoes, beans, nuts and seeds;
Olive oil is the key monounsaturated fat source;
Dairy products, fish and poultry are consumed in low to moderate amounts;
Little red meat is eaten;
Eggs are eaten zero to four times a week; and
Wine is drunk in moderate (or low) amounts.

Many studies indicate that a Mediterranean diet may play an important role in the prevention of coronary artery heart disease. A Mediterranean-style diet also appears to help avoid the metabolic syndrome (prediabetes) and reduce the chances that a person will die sooner rather than later."


I would need to eat more fish and olive oil to bring my diet in line with this, and I'm assuming it's very low in sugar, which I could stand to cut down on. And I could have more wine.

I'll stick to my guns about the mistreatment of animals, though. I was still a kid living with my parents when vegetarianism first became popular, and I was raised on meat. I was taught that people are more important than animals and that we should use them as we see fit. It's only been in the last several years that I've become more aware of the animal farm practices (thanks in large part to my dear daughter, who is an advocate for those who cannot stick up for themselves).

Again, anyone interested in learning more, watch the documentary Earthlings and/or Food Inc. Food Inc. does present some people who farm animals in a humane way.

Link re: Mediterranean diet below:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... ekey=39284

[BasilBoy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '.')..though I agree that the healthiest diet probably includes some animal products.

[BasilBoy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'C')olin Campbell's China Study analysis is bogus. (Notice I said his analysis. The data is good but he spins it.)

[BasilBoy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'W')e're now giving anyone who can make a youtube video the same credibility as an accredited biochemist?

[BasilBoy]

pstarr, you strike me as one of the more rational, intelligent posters here, so I appreciate your participation.

I work very hard to keep an open mind, but as with everyone, we all have biases. However, I did not set out to find data to support my way of thinking or diet. Instead, I came across compelling information that caused me to change. After reading The China Study, I did not come away from it thinking that I could not eat meat. Rather, I saw information that told me that if I kept eating as I was, my risks of heart disease and cancer would go up. At the age of 43, I figured it was a good time to take my diet more seriously.

Regarding Denise's work, I am impressed that a lay person took all that time to sift through the data. However, as Campbell states at the bottom of his rebuttal:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') should conclude by noting the suggestion of the professional epidemiologist, cited above, who suggested that ultimately Denise may wish to publish her findings in a peer-reviewed journal but who presently felt strongly that the current version would not be accepted. I concur.

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', '
') I have my own process for trying to determine which information to rely on. I generally follow the money and the motive behind the information

[misterno]

Can someone explain why beef consumption in the US is in constant decline?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... MI20111222

USDA estimates 2011 U.S. per capita beef consumption at 57.4 lbs, down 13 percent from 10 years ago and down about 25 percent from 1980. In 2012, USDA predicts, Americans will eat 54.1 lbs of beef on average.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'C')an someone explain why beef consumption in the US is in constant decline?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... MI20111222

USDA estimates 2011 U.S. per capita beef consumption at 57.4 lbs, down 13 percent from 10 years ago and down about 25 percent from 1980. In 2012, USDA predicts, Americans will eat 54.1 lbs of beef on average.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'C')an someone explain why beef consumption in the US is in constant decline?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... MI20111222

USDA estimates 2011 U.S. per capita beef consumption at 57.4 lbs, down 13 percent from 10 years ago and down about 25 percent from 1980. In 2012, USDA predicts, Americans will eat 54.1 lbs of beef on average.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '.') Even today most of the weight on most beef cattle comes from grass, sure, some are grown on feedlots from weaning but most are grown on grass and finished on grain. I have 600# of beef in the freezer that only saw grain as a treat. He is almost as tender as grain fed because I let him hang an extra few days, the taste isn't quite as good but not bad for 58¢ a pound.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '.') Even today most of the weight on most beef cattle comes from grass, sure, some are grown on feedlots from weaning but most are grown on grass and finished on grain. I have 600# of beef in the freezer that only saw grain as a treat. He is almost as tender as grain fed because I let him hang an extra few days, the taste isn't quite as good but not bad for 58¢ a pound.