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Derivatives and Peak Oil

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 12:33:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy have interest rates been low? - No it's not as one poster said 'because of the evil central bankers', it's due to the deflationary effect of globalization.


Bullshit. I call that crap.

The reason that interest rates have been low is because the Fed dropped them to below inflation rates in the early 2000s.

Simple as that.

Sure sure, the Fed does not "set" the mortgage rate, but if they set the rate that substantially affects the mortgage rate, then they, indirectly, set the mortgage rate.

The Fed - evil pig faced bastards that they are - intentionally created a massive bubble by lowering borrowing rates so low so as to prompt a stampede of borrowing.

They did this to pump out 4 or 5 years of "prosperity" after the dot com crash.

This is some basic shit here.


Rates have been at historic lows around the world not just the US. The FED dropped the rate to 1% in 2001 to try to stop a recession.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 12:43:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', '[')b]mkwin said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ith all due respect you, you don't know what you're talking about. Interest rates are set by central banks - not by the financial markets.


Interest rates used to be set by central banks, now they are set by financial markets all over the world. The FED lost control in 2000 after the dotcom crash, when they dropped rates to zero to build another bubble. The Yen carry trade still dominates as the pace setter, but when markets can strip out the risk premium from the interest equation, central banks have no control. I would advise that you update your paradigm, its five years out of date.



The Yen carry trade adds to global liquidity and has been an important element in asset price inflation but it has nothing to do with central bank base interest rates.

We are talking about central bank base rates here. This is the minimum rate a member bank will loan at. If you're saying central banks lost control of the money supply, then that's more plausible. The creation of commercial mortgage back securities/residential mortgage backed securities and CDO's has allowed banks to make loans then pass the risk on other parties. This has lead to loose lending criteria. This in turn has lead to money supply growth of 10%+ in the US and UK in recent years, which has lead to debasement of the currency and the recent upturn in inflation - hence the increase in rates both sides of the Atlantic.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 12:43:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ith all due respect you, you don't know what you're talking about. Interest rates are set by central banks - not by the financial markets. Interest rates have been able to be set so low due to the lack of inflation at the traditional point in the business cycle, which is due to globalisation. It's not evil rich guys making a quick buck, it's due to global macro economic events beyond the control of any individual, bank, company, or government.


Interest rates are set by the bond auctions moron...Which means by how many foreign investors are willing to purchase US (and other govt. issued) Bonds & Tbills. Less demand for Bonds, the higher interest rates have to go to attract more buyers.


You really need to quit watching TV.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:00:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ith all due respect you, you don't know what you're talking about. Interest rates are set by central banks - not by the financial markets. Interest rates have been able to be set so low due to the lack of inflation at the traditional point in the business cycle, which is due to globalisation. It's not evil rich guys making a quick buck, it's due to global macro economic events beyond the control of any individual, bank, company, or government.


Interest rates are set by the bond auctions moron...Which means by how many foreign investors are willing to purchase US Bonds. You really need to quit watching TV.


By 'bond auctions' I assume you mean the bond market. To start with the bond market is very complicated and demand for bonds does affect the face value of the bond and the bonds yield. However the rate stays the same.

For example:

I buy a standard $100 10 year treasury bond in 2005. The rate is say 4%. Hence, I get 4% in two payments each year and my $100 back in 2015. However, if there is high demand from investors for that specific time period bond, the price of the bond will increase on the bond market. This would mean the price the bond trades at increases to say £110 dollars and the yield drops to 3.64 % - but only on the market. The new buyer would still get 4% p.a. from the FED but would only get $100 back in 2015 – hence he loses $10 on the purchase and the overall yield or return is lower than the interest rate on the bond.

So the rate on the bond is the rate set by the FED. Hence the FED sets rates on bonds and it sets the base rate banks can lend at. The bond market sets the yields on bonds but this is an internal market event or a balance between supply and demand in the bond market.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:07:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') buy a standard $100 10 year treasury bond in 2005. The rate is say 4%. Hence, I get 4% in two payments each year and my $100 back in 2015. However, if there is high demand from investors for that specific time period, bond the price of the bond will increase on the bond market. This would mean the price of the bond increases to say £110 dollars and the yield drops to 3.64 % - but only on the market. The new buyer would still get 4% p.a. from the FED but would only get $100 back in 2015 – hence he loses $10 on the purchase and the overall yield or return is lower than the interest rate on the bond.

So the rate on the bond is the rate set by the FED. Hence the FED sets rates on bonds and it sets the base rate banks can lend at. The bond market sets the yields on bonds but this is an internal market event or a balance between supply and demand in the bond market.


This is nothing but gibberish. Investors are shopping for the highest rate of return. Why did Real Estate go through a boom cycle ? because it was real estate bonds that paid the highest return, that worm has turned and we are now seeing excess global liqudiity move into different areas of the economy.

Inflation is casued by excess liquidity. When there are large amounts of currency in circualtion interest rates will tend to be low and vise versa - You really aren't as smart as you think you are, this is not rocket science, it is plain and simple supply and demand.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:09:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'T')he Fed - evil pig faced bastards that they are - intentionally created a massive bubble by lowering borrowing rates so low so as to prompt a stampede of borrowing.


Yet, people on this forum believe this same set of beltway executive luminaries will do a peachy job of managing the health care, retirement savings, and environmental future of 300 million people.

It boggles the mind.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:11:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are talking about central bank base rates here. This is the minimum rate a member bank will loan at.


This is also incorrect - The central bank rate I believe you are referring to is the overnight lending rate banks can charge each other. Not the "lowest rate member banks can lend at".

In any case, what there is, in regards to the global financial markets is a huge mess that needs to be untangled here.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby Last_Laff » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:28:27

Is this why Canadian interest rate went up the other day? The 70 dollar a barrel range makes it look cheap again. 8)
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:34:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') buy a standard $100 10 year treasury bond in 2005. The rate is say 4%. Hence, I get 4% in two payments each year and my $100 back in 2015. However, if there is high demand from investors for that specific time period, bond the price of the bond will increase on the bond market. This would mean the price of the bond increases to say £110 dollars and the yield drops to 3.64 % - but only on the market. The new buyer would still get 4% p.a. from the FED but would only get $100 back in 2015 – hence he loses $10 on the purchase and the overall yield or return is lower than the interest rate on the bond.

So the rate on the bond is the rate set by the FED. Hence the FED sets rates on bonds and it sets the base rate banks can lend at. The bond market sets the yields on bonds but this is an internal market event or a balance between supply and demand in the bond market.


This is nothing but gibberish. Investors are shopping for the highest rate of return. Why did Real Estate go through a boom cycle ? because it was real estate bonds that paid the highest return, that worm has turned and we are now seeing excess global liqudiity move into different areas of the economy.

Inflation is casued by excess liquidity. When there are large amounts of currency in circualtion interest rates will tend to be low and vise versa - You really aren't as smart as you think you are, this is not rocket science, it is plain and simple supply and demand.


There's no need to get personal!! lol - while I might not be very smart, I do work in the City of London in finance so I have a pretty good idea how the investment sector works. That explanation is not 'gibberish' even though it may seem so to you. It is how the bond market works in simplistic layman terms.

Different investors want different things. Investment is not simply about the highest rate of returns it's a balance of risk and reward. Pension funds are very big bond investors for example because they want security of income where as private equity funds want a 20% annual return so they invest in riskier investment.

Real Estate is very cyclical as it is highly correlated with the economy. If the economy does well, generally real estate does well. It has also benefited from the weight of capital in the market further driving down yields on real estate investments and hence increasing capital values. The Real Estate boom has little to do with bonds or MBS.

The bottom line is interest rates are always low at the early stage of a business cycle, normally as we reach the peak inflation kicks up causing interest rates to rise and we have a slow down or recession and the cycle starts again. However, this latest cycle has been weakened, as inflation hasn't kicked up until quite late as Chinese imports have been keeping a lid on inflation. That’s why we have so much liquidity and asset price inflation not the evil bankers purposely creating asset bubbles.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:41:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are talking about central bank base rates here. This is the minimum rate a member bank will loan at.


This is also incorrect - The central bank rate I believe you are referring to is the overnight lending rate banks can charge each other. Not the "lowest rate member banks can lend at".

In any case, what there is, in regards to the global financial markets is a huge mess that needs to be untangled here.


No the base rate is the base rate. In the UK it's called The Bank of England Base Rate. The rate you're refering to is called LIBOR in the UK, which stands for the London Inter-Bank Overnight Rate and this is always slightly higher than the base rate.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 13:42:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')eal Estate is very cyclical as it is highly correlated with the economy. If the economy does well, generally real estate does well.


Historically real estate and civil infastructure investment have driven the economy, not vise versa. We are now in a cycle of unregulated money printing and fractional lending that is driving the economy in the face of permanent looming global commodity shortages which is a much different paradigm, and because so much of our economy is speculative this could be a very chaotic period for the global economy.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 14:45:42

According to the official stance, there is no problem here folks, this CDO debacle is not going to spread.

Hedgefunds Problems Contained

Of course the next story down the list is:

Reuters

This $100 trillion dollar pyramid sets atop a $1 trillion dollar base. A base made up of 6 million home owners who shouldn’t have been given loans, and now, those homes represent negative equity. Inventories are at all time highs and prices have no where to go but down; dragging trillions of $ with them.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 14:50:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')eal Estate is very cyclical as it is highly correlated with the economy. If the economy does well, generally real estate does well.


Historically real estate and civil infastructure investment have driven the economy, not vise versa. We are now in a cycle of unregulated money printing and fractional lending that is driving the economy in the face of permanent looming global commodity shortages which is a much different paradigm, and because so much of our economy is speculative this could be a very chaotic period for the global economy.


Real estate and construction in generally circa 10% of GDP. A significant component but not a driver of the business cycle.

Couple of points; 1) The central bank system is regulated - less so in the US than Europe but still regulated. The banking system is highly regulated. 2) Fractional lending has been around since the creation of the central bank systems. 3) The economy and the financial markets have been driven by a prolonged business cycle upturn. This is due to historically low inflation which is due to globalisation.

However, I think we have found the first point I agree with you! I also believe it's going to be a chaotic period in the global economy.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 14:59:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his $100 trillion dollar pyramid sets atop a $1 trillion dollar base. A base made up of 6 million home owners who shouldn’t have been given loans, and now, those homes represent negative equity. Inventories are at all time highs and prices have no where to go but down; dragging trillions of $ with them.


This is the point - Unless the Fed can find a way to re-inflate the housing buble through lending and still maintain capital inflow from foreign investors I think they are out of gas and have played thier last card.

Speculative real estate buyers which were driving the prices up are now off the market, so you can say bye bye to Housing, Construction, home furnishings, realtors, mortage lending etc and with that there goes the US economy.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 15:04:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he banking system is highly regulated


Apparently not according to what we are seeing in the subprime industry. I was in lending in the 80's and if you had a 30 day late you did not get even car loan, now people are gettting loans with no jobs and no abilty to pay...

Who is doing all this "regulating" ???
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 15:05:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', 'A')ccording to the official stance, there is no problem here folks, this CDO debacle is not going to spread.

Hedgefunds Problems Contained

Of course the next story down the list is:

Reuters

This $100 trillion dollar pyramid sets atop a $1 trillion dollar base. A base made up of 6 million home owners who shouldn’t have been given loans, and now, those homes represent negative equity. Inventories are at all time highs and prices have no where to go but down; dragging trillions of $ with them.


The total value of those 6 million mortgages is, assuming average mortgages of £150,000, is

900,000,000,000 or $900 billion. Assuming 50% of those properties are re possessed and sold for 80% of their market value, there would be a loss of $90 billion.

A significant figure but hardly the cataclysmic. Considering we lost many trillions of dollars with the dotcom crash and this wasn't the end of the world.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 15:12:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he total value of those 6 million mortgages is, assuming average mortgages of £150,000, is

900,000,000,000 or $900 billion. Assuming 50% of those properties are re possessed and sold for 80% of their market value, there would be a loss of $90 billion.

A significant figure but hardly the cataclysmic. Considering we lost many trillions of dollars with the dotcom crash and this wasn't the end of the world.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')onsidering we lost many trillions of dollars


We lost tmany trillions of dollars ? Where did they go ? Did they vanish ? No - It was a transfer of wealth. Money does not simply get "lost" it is transferred, in most cases from the middle class to the upper class, which is also what happened in the housing industry.

Houses were sold to younger people at huge profits due to the criminal lending practices in the banking industry which was manipulated by TPTB (mainly bush and greenspan). So now you have an entire generation of young people enslaved for the next 10-20 yrs.

And what will most likley unravel this house of cards is population demographics i.e less young people entering the work force and more old people retiring in developed countries. That means young people have less to spend and old people will be earning less and spending less and drawing more govt. entitlements, which will not be able to be paid, without devaluing the currency even more.

Or

China could allow the yaun to float and sink the US and Europe in a heartbeat......
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby mkwin » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 15:17:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he banking system is highly regulated


Apparently not according to what we are seeing in the subprime industry. I was in lending in the 80's and if you had a 30 day late you did not get even car loan, now people are gettting loans with no jobs and no abilty to pay...

Who is doing all this "regulating" ???


Subprime is just that - subprime. Banks sell these loans to risky borrowers at a higher interest rate. Maybe 2-3% above the base rate. They then package them into MBS securities the structure looks like this:

First 70% of value - Called senior. These guys have a right to repossess the property and take all the money they need to meet their investment of 70% of the value if the borrows fall behind in there payments. Traditional bond holders buy these bonds and get a return of say 5%.

Next 15-20% of value - Called mezzanine. If there is any money left from the selling of the assets these guys get paid after the senior holders. Traditional corporate bond holders buy these and get say a 7% return.

Last 10-15% of value - called equity. These guys will likely loose their investment if the houses are repossessed. Hedge funds buy these and get say a 10-15% return.

It is about risk and reward. The hedge funds and mezzanine funders will get burnt but great they are all rich smug bastards anyway.

The debate is will the problems be confined to the hedge fund industry or will it spread into other areas of the financial markets. We don’t know yet but even in the worse case it won’t be as bad as the dotcom fiasco.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 15:23:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ouple of points; 1) The central bank system is regulated - less so in the US than Europe but still regulated. The banking system is highly regulated. 2) Fractional lending has been around since the creation of the central bank systems. 3) The economy and the financial markets have been driven by a prolonged business cycle upturn. This is due to historically low inflation which is due to globalisation.


1) Perhaps the central banking system is. Investment Banks and Hedge Funds aren’t. If they are they are not regulated very well, otherwise they wouldn’t be allowed to issues trillions of $ of sythethic CDO’s on bonds that they don’t even own.

2) Fractional lending started in the 13th century with English and French gold dealers. They started out as security companies that stored other peoples gold. Then they started lending other peoples gold at interest. Finally, they figured out that they could loan out almost all the gold that people had deposited, as not everyone requested their gold at the same time. Of course, sometimes they got hung when someone of importance showed up to collect their gold, and it wasn’t there. Society should have continued that tradition!

3) What has fueled a prolonged business cycle is the fact that the US, after shipping its manufacturing facilities oversees and millions of its high paying jobs, has been going into debt to the tune of $800 billion per year. This has been more of a prolonged hijacking than a prolonged business cycle.
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Re: Derivatives and Peak Oil

Unread postby clueless » Wed 11 Jul 2007, 15:29:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ubprime is just that - subprime. Banks sell these loans to risky borrowers at a higher interest rate. Maybe 2-3% above the base rate. They then package them into MBS securities the structure looks like this:


I understand how all that works, what you should say is part of the Banking industry is regulated because this portion apparenlty isn't, and it will affect a number of things in the economy and only time will tell. We have allready seen Home Depot, Sears and the Homebuilders taking hits, let's see how long this continues. I work in the power industry and it is booming right now, so apparantly capital is heading into that industry for the time being.
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