[suxs]

Suffering from selective amnesia, vtsnowden? Please allow me to refresh your memory, lol.

K-Street corruption is a singular Republican scandal. You remember the K-Street Gang beginning with the fall of Republican House majority leader Tom DeLay the ideologue and prodigious fundraiser who invited lobbyists to run amok in exchange for campaign contributions; Jack Abramoff the conservative activist who left a disastrous career in Hollywood for a new beginning as a Washington lobbyist only to fleece his clients out of millions of dollars; Ralph Reed the former executive director of the Christian Coalition whose religious principles were always subservient to his business interests; Grover Norquist the anti-tax activist who provided intellectual ammunition for the Republican takeover of the lobbying industry only to see the lobbyists take over the Republican party; Adam Kidan a down on his luck Republican businessman who engineered the scam of a lifetime. Also, the mysterious Russian businessmen with ties to Soviet military intelligence who paid for Tom DeLay's trip to Moscow then sold weapons to Jack Abramoff who resold them to militant Israeli settlers; how Grover Norquist helped arranged meetings between George W Bush and men who are now known to be Islamic terrorists; and the Abramoff/Scanlon Indian Lobbying Scandal was a fraud perpetrated by lobbyists Jack Abramoff and Michael Scanlon (former communications director for DeLay) on Native American tribes who were seeking to develop casino gambling on their reservations and how a routine audit of an obscure Indian tribe's finances led to widespread public corruption.

[vtsnowedin]

There is so much BS in that rant I do not want to dirty my hands by picking it apart.

[theluckycountry]

Covid is the De-growth plan, as I have said before. Delta, Omicron, Omicron++ lol. Tens of Thousands are lining up for roadside RAT tests now and when the result says they have the flu they are off home for a two week vacation. That puts a dent in fuel consumption, in consumption in general. Watch this space because this Cow still has a lot of milk in it. I expect covid related closures of business operations to go on and on because that is the core of our Growth model, business and employment, leading to consumption.

[vtsnowedin]

Covid is a pretty poor degrowth plan as it kills mostly elderly people well beyond their child bearing and child raising years. Our economies will learn how to live with covid and it will not be a long term drag on business profits.
Actually I am surprised that governments around the world have let it disrupt them anywhere as much as they have in light of how little the lockdowns actually accomplished.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', 'C')ovid is the De-growth plan, as I have said before.

[theluckycountry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'C')ovid is a pretty poor degrowth plan as it kills mostly elderly people well beyond their child bearing and child raising years. Our economies will learn how to live with covid and it will not be a long term drag on business profits.
Actually I am surprised that governments around the world have let it disrupt them anywhere as much as they have in light of how little the lockdowns actually accomplished.

[vtsnowedin]

There are a lot of falsehoods in your post. Prices are up but demand has not dropped. Air passenger flights are up not down. Cars last fifteen years now not five. And we will never revert to plowing fields with oxen. Battery powered tractors charged by solar panels at the edge of the field or a couple of wind turbines on the next high ridge perhaps but never back to draft animals. Get real.

[Newfie]

VT,

While I agree with most of your post except the bit about plowing with electric tractors.

I see guys trying to come up with electric sailboats, it is not working except in very constrained applications. They are limited to very little motor use, noting like the range and speed of even a smallish diesel.

With tractors they would have to carry monstrous battery packs, extremely heavy, most likely need to change for a fresh pack every hour or two, and have the capacity to charge them over night. So if you are going to do it with solar then you need some storage medium; more huge stationary batteries or flywheels.

We have electric trains, but they run in HVAC overhead contact wires. 13kV and up.

Coal gas I could see, not electric.

[Sweeney]

I have a copy of an old French magazine (L'Illustration, July 1941) in which there is an article which promotes the use of electricity for ploughing. The system was basically the same as steam ploughing, with a capstan either side of the field and a big electric winch (running on mains electricity) hauling the plough to and fro. Doesn't seem to have caught on.

[topcat]

"Electric tractors"

Check out Monarch tractors from Calif

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ith tractors they would have to carry monstrous battery packs, extremely heavy, most likely need to change for a fresh pack every hour or two, and have the capacity to charge them over night.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'V')T,

While I agree with most of your post except the bit about plowing with electric tractors.

I see guys trying to come up with electric sailboats, it is not working except in very constrained applications. They are limited to very little motor use, noting like the range and speed of even a smallish diesel.

With tractors they would have to carry monstrous battery packs, extremely heavy, most likely need to change for a fresh pack every hour or two, and have the capacity to charge them over night. So if you are going to do it with solar then you need some storage medium; more huge stationary batteries or flywheels.

We have electric trains, but they run in HVAC overhead contact wires. 13kV and up.

Coal gas I could see, not electric.

[theluckycountry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'T')here are a lot of falsehoods in your post. Prices are up but demand has not dropped. Air passenger flights are up not down. Cars last fifteen years now not five. And we will never revert to plowing fields with oxen. Battery powered tractors charged by solar panels at the edge of the field or a couple of wind turbines on the next high ridge perhaps but never back to draft animals. Get real.

[theluckycountry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
') I think you are off there. A Tesla model Y battery holds enough energy to take the car 326 miles so is equivalent to 10 gallons of gas or about 8 gallons of diesel. Remember that ice engines are only about 33% efficient and straight electric are above 80%.
Now my 45 Horsepower diesel tractor can do quite a bit of work with eight gallons of diesel and the big Ag sized 150 HP powered ones actually do more per unit of fuel burned so replacing that big diesel engine with electric motors and the battery packs to power it all day should not be a problem.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
') I think you are off there. A Tesla model Y battery holds enough energy to take the car 326 miles so is equivalent to 10 gallons of gas or about 8 gallons of diesel. Remember that ice engines are only about 33% efficient and straight electric are above 80%.
Now my 45 Horsepower diesel tractor can do quite a bit of work with eight gallons of diesel and the big Ag sized 150 HP powered ones actually do more per unit of fuel burned so replacing that big diesel engine with electric motors and the battery packs to power it all day should not be a problem.

[Newfie]

Quick look up, I will calculate as I type, lets see where this leads.

A Telsa Y has 75kW battery capacity. So, for easy math lets say this is 10kW for a gallon of gas/diesel.

I have 2 each 300W solar panels, the very best I have done with them is a bit over 1kW (each) in a whole day, clear sky, tropic sun. They are +5’x3’ or over 15 square feet each. I need 10 to make 1 gallon of diesel equivalent.

So that is 150 square feet for one gallon of diesel. 1,500 square feet for 10 gallons.

And that is in perfect conditions. You will typically need much more than that because you are in Vermont and can’t count on sunny skies when farming. So you need to capture and store enough energy to keep your tractor running when you are not using it. I am guessing you may need storage of something like 10 to 20 times the daily fuel consumption to assure success. Lets assume 10.

So you will need the equivalent of 10 Tesla storage batteries to act like a diesel fuel tank. And then you need to charge those batteries FAST when the sun does shine. So you will need something like 5x the solar array for sufficient recharge.

That works out to 7,500 square feet of solar panel and 10x Y type battery banks for storage. And that may be conservative.

It all depends upon 2 things.
1-How important is it for you to plow/seed/till/harvest your field TODAY or THIS WEEK.
2-What are the consequences if you don’t have sufficient power? Does your family starve?

I watched a guy rip out a perfectly good diesel (about 40-50hp) and install an electric motor with a big battery bank and a small charge diesel. Then he went for a couple of month cruise to see how it worked. When he came back he ordered a 36hp diesel to charge his batteries to run his y motors. Why? Because it quickly became evident to him that he could never STORE sufficient electricity to meet his needs for a safe passage. And this is what diesel is; super dense and stable and light energy storage.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'Q')uick look up, I will calculate as I type, lets see where this leads.

A Telsa Y has 75kW battery capacity. So, for easy math lets say this is 10kW for a gallon of gas/diesel.

I have 2 each 300W solar panels, the very best I have done with them is a bit over 1kW (each) in a whole day, clear sky, tropic sun. They are +5’x3’ or over 15 square feet each. I need 10 to make 1 gallon of diesel equivalent.

So that is 150 square feet for one gallon of diesel. 1,500 square feet for 10 gallons.

And that is in perfect conditions. You will typically need much more than that because you are in Vermont and can’t count on sunny skies when farming. So you need to capture and store enough energy to keep your tractor running when you are not using it. I am guessing you may need storage of something like 10 to 20 times the daily fuel consumption to assure success. Lets assume 10.

So you will need the equivalent of 10 Tesla storage batteries to act like a diesel fuel tank. And then you need to charge those batteries FAST when the sun does shine. So you will need something like 5x the solar array for sufficient recharge.

That works out to 7,500 square feet of solar panel and 10x Y type battery banks for storage. And that may be conservative.

It all depends upon 2 things.
1-How important is it for you to plow/seed/till/harvest your field TODAY or THIS WEEK.
2-What are the consequences if you don’t have sufficient power? Does your family starve?

I watched a guy rip out a perfectly good diesel (about 40-50hp) and install an electric motor with a big battery bank and a small charge diesel. Then he went for a couple of month cruise to see how it worked. When he came back he ordered a 36hp diesel to charge his batteries to run his y motors. Why? Because it quickly became evident to him that he could never STORE sufficient electricity to meet his needs for a safe passage. And this is what diesel is; super dense and stable and light energy storage.

[Newfie]

VT,

That 1kW/day was in the tropics, sun overhead, in near perfect conditions. You will be very lucky to get 15% to 20% of that on average in VT. Summer somewhat better. Winter worse. Now figure out what AVERAGE VT homeowner uses for heat and then how many sq feet of panels he needs for heat.

Wind, even in the trade winds, is a fraction of solar.

I use both.

We use very little electricity. The ONE thing that might be a good addition is a small microwave. They use relatively little power and can be a net gain over diesel/kerosene/gas if you have good solar.

And finally. Your square footage of panels means exactly zip at night. That is why you need huge battery banks, as a fuel tank.


Look, I am not against solar or wind. It is just that they alone won’t support the profligate energy budget we currently are used to.

Build out solar and wind.
Modernize our grid to take advantage of HVDC distribution.
Reduce our energy budgets, live leaner.
Build nukes.
Save as much fossil fuel as possible for mobile requirements.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')As for solar tractors doing our farming, well that's just a delusion, how are are you going to build them and replace the mammoth batteries without a cheap oil based economy?

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'V')T,

That 1kW/day was in the tropics, sun overhead, in near perfect conditions. You will be very lucky to get 15% to 20% of that on average in VT. Summer somewhat better. Winter worse.

Wind, even in the trade winds, is a fraction of solar.

I use both.