[erl]

EJ:

When I implied that you were focusing on Christians because of some past issues, I did not mean that in any sort of accusatory way. I was just trying to gain some insight.

In any event, I do look forward to seeing the result of your research.

[erl]

EJ:

I don't really disagree with anything you said in this last post. I am appalled at what passes for Christianity today. Truly appalled.

I am not an adherent of the Kingdom Now theology. Christians, no matter how well intentioned, will never bring about Christ's kingdom on earth. In fact, I think the bible tells us it will be a losing battle until his return.

But, that doesn't mean we stop declaring the truth. It just means that declaring it will get us into trouble with those who disagree (like Roger ).

Anyway, I'm going home. It was certainly a pleasure exchanging posts with you tonight.

[DesertBear2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
')I would have to say that overall the teachings of Jesus in the gospels show a person that cares very deeply for other human beings.

[lateralus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesertBear2', '
') We don't know who he was or what he truly said.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('erl', 'B')ut, that doesn't mean we stop declaring the truth. It just means that declaring it will get us into trouble with those who disagree (like Roger ).

[Miki]

Some of you seem to have some confusion with the definition of terrorism. Here's some clarification.

Distorted Morality: America's War on Terror?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')merica's post-9/11 war on terror is a logical impossibility

The U.S. government has been, and continues to be, a major supporter of state-supported terrorism, favoring retaliatory or preemptive aggression over mediation in the world court, and avoiding accountability by excluding itself from the globally accepted definition of terrorism.

The hypocrisy of the U.S. government is powerfully scrutinized in Distorted Morality, a scathing thesis presented by renowned scholar Noam Chomsky.

07/09/06

[Miki]

Here's how the US government instigates and even invents terrorist groups:

American Terror
By Chris Floyd

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '0')1/21/05 "Moscow Times" -- More than two years ago, we wrote here of a secret Pentagon plan to foment terrorism by sending covert agents to infiltrate terrorist groups and goad them into action -- in other words, committing acts of murder and destruction. The purpose was two-fold: first, to bring the terrorist groups into the open, where they could be counterattacked; and second, to justify U.S. military attacks on the countries where the terrorists were operating -- attacks which, in the Pentagon's words, would put those nations' "sovereignty at risk." It was a plan that countenanced -- indeed, encouraged -- the deliberate murder of innocent people and the imposition of U.S. military rule anywhere in the world that U.S. leaders desired.

This plan is now being activated.

In fact, it's being expanded, as The New Yorker's Seymour Hersh revealed last week. Not only will U.S.-directed agents infiltrate existing terrorist groups and provoke them into action, but the Pentagon itself will create its own terrorist groups and "death squads." After establishing their terrorist "credentials" through various atrocities and crimes, these American-run groups will then be able to ally with -- and ultimately undermine -- existing terrorist groups.

[Jack]

It's called "winning".

The U.S. can and must neutralize those who would harm the national interests.

[Lighthouse]

Tell me something new.

Lehi and Irgun where considered once as terrorist organisations. And that was not so long ago.

But please get yourself a more credible source.

Yourself as source would be a very good start. As far as I'm aware you are in the middle where the latest shit hit the fan ...

[Miki]

The Real Terror Network
Paul Bremer, the new ‘Gauleiter’ of Iraq

By William Bowles

05/06/03: (Information Clearing House) George Bush has appointed Paul Bremer as the ‘civil administrator’ of Iraq in what the Independent calls "a victory for Colin Powell…in the running skirmishes with Mr Rumsfeld’s Pentagon…".

Bremer and the ‘terror’ business
Bremer is managing director and senior advisor for Political and Emerging Risks for MMC Enterprise Risk, part of Marsh McLennan Companies (MMC), which puts the frighteners on businesses about their exposure to political and other risks and which earns MMC annual revenues of $5.9 billion. Now here’s a man (and a company) that has a vested interest in ‘terror’ and does quite well out of it thank you (shades of Halliburton Inc.). Not surprisingly, Marsh offers its clients its own version of a Homeland Security package complete with various ‘threat’ levels.

Bremer is also a senior advisor to Americans for Victory over Terrorism (AVOT) a project of www.empower.org where he is in good company with people such as William J Bennett, Frank Gaffney, Lawrence Kadish, James Woolsey and Ruth R Wisse. Also, check out these sites for more on where Bremer comes from,

http://www.avot.org/stories/storyReader$29 and http://avot.org/stories/storyReader$131.

"The report also recommended that the FBI and CIA be better able to hire criminals and suspected criminals. Responding to the charge that the CIA shouldn’t hire thugs or other "unsavoury sources", Bremer said "We feel that ‘unsavoury sources’ and ‘thugs’ does these folks a disservice. We prefer to think of these job applicants as simply good kids gone bad. We feel that the CIA can play a rehabilative role in American society."

Source: http://www.hypocritae.com/?ART=27

Would you let guy this baby-sit your kids?

More on Brenner and his "anti-terrorist" policies:

Brenner & terrorism

[Miki]

State Sponsored Terrorism "

NATIONAL DEFENSE, n. In U.S. political discourse: 1) The pauperization of the nation through expenditures for deadly weapons systems; 2) The bombardment and invasion of small countries. The United States is, of course, the only nation entitled to such 'defense.' If the inhabitants of other countries resist the U.S. government's 'defensive' measures, they become guilty of 'internal aggression'; and if governments of other countries practice U.S.-style national defense, they become guilty of 'naked aggression.': Chaz Bufe, The Devil's Dictionaries

REGRETTABLE NECESSITY, n. An avoidable atrocity. The term is often employed by presidents and prime ministers when announcing bombings of civilian targets and invasions of small countries." : Chaz Bufe, The Devil's Dictionaries


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The enemy aggressor is always pursuing a course of larceny, murder, rapine, and barbarism. We are always moving forward with high mission, a destiny imposed by the deity to regenerate our victims while incidentally capturing their markets, to civilize savage and senile and paranoidal peoples while blundering accidentally into their oil wells or metal mines." : John T. Flynn, As We Go Marching
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Sure, there were lots of bodies we never identified. You know what a direct hit by a shell does to a guy. Or a mine, or a solid hit with a grenade, even. Sometimes all we have is a leg or a hunk of arm. The ones that stink the worst are the guys who got internal wounds and are dead about three weeks with the blood staying inside and rotting, and when you move the body the blood comes out of the nose and mouth. Then some of them bloat up in the sun, they bloat up so big that they bust the buttons and then they get blue and the skin peels. They don't all get blue, some of them get black. But they all stunk. There's only one stink and that's it. You never get used to it, either. As long as you live, you never get used to it. And after a while, the stink gets in your clothes and you can taste it in your mouth. You know what I think? I think maybe if every civilian in the world could smell this stink, then maybe we wouldn't have any more wars.": Technical Sergeant Donald Haguall, 48th Quartermaster Graves Registration (quoted in Purnell's History of the Second World War)

Much more on the distorted American definitions of war crimes and terrorism in this video:

State Sponsored Terrorism

[Miki]

Terrorism Myth: Muslims Look for Responsible Journalism

By Mahboob A. Khawaja, Ph.D.

06/22/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- The “War on Terrorism” is flourishing business for the corporate world - a 21st century fantasy on its own, where facts live in denials and predetermined dogmas cover all aspects of Muslims and Islam. When facts are not available, the mainstream media would construct dark illusions to assert the corporate-political agenda to encroach human rights, freedom and dignity. The media games are not played by any definable rules. After the 9/11 attacks in the US, the sole victims are Muslims and Islamic civilization and nobody else. The recent arrests of the17 youngsters in Toronto, including five underage boys are a clear case in point. Immediately after their arrests, the synchronized statement issued by the new Canadian PM could be conveniently compared to the words of President Bush in thought and spirit. The media quickly eluded to the crimes unknown and unsubstantiated and identified them “ Muslim Terrorists.” As if Muslims were born in the eye of storm and the religion of Islam was the basis of this ephemeral judgment. If the individuals or ethnic groups other than Muslims were involved, the mass media would not have jumped to such hasty and irrelevant ethnically biased conclusions.

Stewart Nusbaumer (“Terror to Empire”: 07/2003), asked the same question, “ can American stop this madness?” And added: “The Bush Administration hawks are lumping together all kinds of reasons and excuses under the rubric of terrorism and exploiting the horror of 9/11 for political and corporate gain - the war against terrorism has become, in fact, a war for empire.” Belatedly, Canada is enlisted when American led adventures are under global scrutiny and appears to be falling apart with public calls for “war crimes” and “impeachment”. In all probabilities, the arrest of 17 individuals involve important legal issues and the opportunities to prove innocence or guilt but in a court of law. How come the mass media has assumed the role of law and justice? Is that is what the Canadian justice is about?

Gwynne Dyer (“The International Terrorist Conspiracy”, 06/2006), London-based prominent journalist, points out: “there is no shadowy but powerful network waging a terrorist war against the West: the whole thing is a fantasy.” Europeans are well aware, of Baader-Meinhof Gang (German), Red Brigades (Italy), and Red Army (Japan), but no one calls them Christian or Buddhist terrorists. Why? Simply, because there are Christian or Buddhist, not Muslim. The “War on Terrorism” is a war against Muslims and to control their natural resources under the American Empire, and nothing else. Ethnically conscientious and politically infuriated, the Dutch lady Minister of Immigration (CBC TV Night News documentary: 8-9 June), has a quick solution for the “hijab” - “abaya” - black cover dressed ladies, do as the Romans do or 100,000-150,000 Muslims get out of here.” Was that an incentive to the North American politicians to think and act likewise?

The war on terror is an invention

[Magus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The report also recommended that the FBI and CIA be better able to hire criminals and suspected criminals. Responding to the charge that the CIA shouldn’t hire thugs or other "unsavoury sources", Bremer said "We feel that ‘unsavoury sources’ and ‘thugs’ does these folks a disservice. We prefer to think of these job applicants as simply good kids gone bad. We feel that the CIA can play a rehabilative role in American society."

[Miki]

And the best one:

Terrorism Quiz.By Lindy Greene

06/05/06 "Information Clearing House" -- --

1) Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty different countries since 1945?

2) Which is the only country to have used nuclear weapons?

3) Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, in a botched assassination attempt,.

4) Which country's illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a "classic case" of terrorism?

5) Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against Nicaragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling on all states to observe international law?

6) Which country was accused by a UN-sponsored truth commission of providing "direct and indirect support" for "acts of genocide" against the Mayan Indians in Guatemala during the 1980s?

7) Which country unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty in December 2001?

Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the Biological Weapons Convention and brought an international conference on the matter to a halt in July 2001?

9) Which country prevented the United Nations from curbing the gun trade at a small arms conference in July 2001?

10) Aside from Somalia, which is the only other country in the world to have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?

11) Which is the only Western country which allows the death penalty to be applied to children?

12) Which is the only G7 country to have refused to sign the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, forbidding the use of landmines?

13) Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in 1998?

14) Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing a 1987 General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism?

15) Which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the United Nations yet reserves its right to veto United Nations resolutions?

The answer to each question is .... ? The United States Of America

WOW!!!

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', 'T')ell me something new.

Lehi and Irgun where considered once as terrorist organisations. And that was not so long ago.

But please get yourself a more credible source.

Yourself as source would be a very good start. As far as I'm aware you are in the middle where the latest shit hit the fan ...

[Miki]

And last, but not least, Israeli terrorism:

The End Is Near, but first, this commercial.

By William Blum
07/23/06 "Information Clearing House" -- --

Israel's declarations about the absolute unacceptability of one of their soldiers being held captive by the Palestinians, or two soldiers being held by Hezbollah in Lebanon, cannot be taken too seriously when Israel is holding literally thousands of captured Palestinians, many for years, typically without any due process, many tortured; as well as holding a number of prominent Hezbollah members. A few years ago, if not still now, Israel wrote numbers on some of the Palestinian prisoners' arms and foreheads, using blue markers, a practice that is of course reminiscent of the Nazis' treatment of Jews in World War II. [1]

Israel's real aim, and that of Washington, is the overthrow of the Hamas government in Palestine, the government that came to power in January through a clearly democratic process, the democracy that the Western "democracies" never tire of celebrating, except when the result doesn't please them. Is there a stronger word than "hypocrisy"? There is now "no Hamas government," declared a senior US official a week ago, "eight cabinet ministers or 30 percent of the government is in jail [kidnapped by Israel], another 30 percent is in hiding, and the other 30 percent is doing very little"[2]. To make the government-disappearance act even more Orwellian, we have Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking in late June about Iraq: "This is the only legitimately elected government in the Middle East with a possible exception of Lebanon."[3] What's next, gathering in front of the Big Telescreeen for the Two Minutes Hate?

In addition to doing away with the Hamas government, the current military blitzkrieg by Israel, with full US support, may well be designed to create "incidents" to justify attacks on Iran and Syria, the next steps of Washington's work in process, a controlling stranglehold on the Middle East and its oil.

It is a wanton act of collective punishment that is depriving the Palestinians of food, electricity, water, money, access to the outside world ... and sleep. Israel has been sending jets flying over Gaza at night triggering sonic booms, traumatizing children. "I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza," declared Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert[4]; words suitable for Israel's tombstone.

These crimes against humanity -- and I haven't mentioned the terrible special weapons reportedly used by Israel -- are what the people of Palestine get for voting for the wrong party. It is ironic, given the Israeli attacks against civilians in both Gaza and Lebanon, that Hamas and Hezbollah are routinely dismissed in the West as terrorist organizations. The generally accepted definition of terrorism, used by the FBI and the United Nations amongst others, is: The use of violence against a civilian population in order to intimidate or coerce a government in furtherance of a political objective.

Since 9-11 it has been a calculated US-Israeli tactic to label the fight against Israel's foes as an integral part of the war on terror. On July 19, a rally was held in Washington, featuring the governor of Maryland, several members of Israeli-occupied Congress, the Israeli ambassador, and evangelical leading-light John Hagee. The Washington Post reported that "Speaker after prominent speaker characteriz[ed] current Israeli fighting as a small branch of the larger U.S.-led global war against Islamic terrorism" and "Israel's attacks against the Shiite Muslim group Hezbollah were blows against those who have killed civilians from Bali to Bombay to Moscow." Said the Israeli ambassador: "This is not just about [Israel]. It's about where our world is going to be and the fate and security of our world. Israel is on the forefront. We will amputate these little arms of Iran," referring to Hezbollah.[5]

And if the war on terror isn't enough to put Israel on the side of the angels, John Hagee has argued that "the United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West". He speaks of "a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ."[6] The beatification of Israel approaches being a movement. Here is David Horowitz, the eminent semi-hysterical ex-Marxist: "Israel is part of a global war, the war of radical Islam against civilization. Right now Israel is doing the work of the rest of the civilized world by taking on the terrorists. It is not only for Israel's sake that we must get the facts out -- it is for ourselves, America, for every free country in the world, and for civilization itself."[7]

The end is near

Hmmm...finally I know where Spec gets his rhetorics from.

[azreal60]

I think what more they want to know is a more personal look at things. If your in Lebanon, I'm genuinely curious, what parts can you personally confirm as hit? I ask because my brother only just got back from there, and we have pictures of him standing next to things that I just saw on CNN as completely destroyed. Kinda depressing, the buildings in the pictures where really beautiful.

Don't give us stories in the news, because honestly, as you yourself have said, alot of them are propagandist bullpucky. Give us an on the ground perspective. Hell be your own news. I gaurentee it will be alot more informative for us than 99 percent of what I see on CNN.

[Magus]

Hezbollah politicians back peace package

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')y SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jul 28, 10:57 PM ET



BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah politicians, while expressing reservations, have joined their critics in the government in agreeing to a peace package that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said.

The agreement — reached after a heated six-hour Cabinet meeting — was the first time that Hezbollah has signed onto a proposal for ending the crisis that includes the deploying of international forces.

The package falls short of American and Israeli demands in that it calls for an immediate cease-fire before working out details of a force and includes other conditions.

But European Union officials said Friday the proposals form a basis for an agreement, increasing the pressure on the United States to call for a cease-fire.

President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Friday they too want an international force dispatched quickly to the Mideast but said any plan to end the fighting — to have a lasting effect — must address long-running regional disputes.

"This is a moment of intense conflict in the Middle East," Bush said after his meeting with Blair in Washington. "Yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for broader change in the region."

By signing onto the peace proposals, Hezbollah gave Western-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora a boost in future negotiations.

Going into Thursday night's Cabinet session, Hezbollah's two ministers expressed deep reservations about the force and its mandate, fearing it could turn against their guerrillas.

"Will the international force be a deterrent one and used against who?" officials who attended the Cabinet meeting said in summing up Hezbollah cabinet ministers concerns. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the debate.

But afterward, Information Minister Ghazi Aridi announced that the package had been agreed on by consensus in a rare show of unity by a divided administration.

While all sides seemed to be looking for a way to stop the fighting, details of plans taking shape on all sides were still fuzzy. And it was not at all certain Hezbollah would really follow through on the Lebanese government plan that would effectively abolish the militants' military wing. It may have signed on to the deal convinced that Israel would reject it.

But the agreement presents Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice with a package she might find hard to ignore when she returns to the region.

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think what more they want to know is a more personal look at things. If your in Lebanon, I'm genuinely curious, what parts can you personally confirm as hit? I ask because my brother only just got back from there, and we have pictures of him standing next to things that I just saw on CNN as completely destroyed. Kinda depressing, the buildings in the pictures where really beautiful.

[seldom_seen]

Time to stop hosting Hezbollah in your country it looks like.