[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')I'm sure way back when there were husband and wife pairs where She was the queen of the gatherers and He was not God's gift to hunting, and that worked out OK too.

[thorn]

Claudia wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is the main point of The Two Income Trap. Parents are living these crazy lifestyles for one overwhelming reason: to get a spot in the bidding war to buy a house in a good school district, so their kids can get a reasonable start in life.

[Claudia]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thorn', 'W')hat about home schooling?

[Roy]

Good topic.

This is something my wife and I have been wrestling with since we had our first child in 2001.

When I met her, she was a law student with burgeoning student loans.

We were married after she graduated in 1998. So, when our first child was born, we were accustomed to her income and mine.

Being an engineer for the state of Louisiana, I don't make alot of money. In fact, my wife's salary is 2x mine. And her education debt was 6x mine.

So, for the last 4 years, she has worked, both part time and full time and we have had our kids in daycare.

They get sick more often, they bring home bad behaviors from "school" and they often pick up beliefs from the daycare system that I don't agree with. Daycare cost us $500 per month per kid.

Our plan was for her to stop working as an attorney (something she desparately wants to do--she has a problem with the ethics of her peers) as soon as we were debt free.

Once I "discovered" Peak Oil, about a year ago, we went on a crash debt reduction program. In that time, we've whittled her ed. debt down to half, paid off mine, paid off all our CC debt, and sold our house. Everything was going according to schedule. We had 13 more payments on her loans when everything changed.

She lost her full time job. One of the reasons given by her employer is that she was missing too much time due to sick kids. By May 1, she had used up her alloted 2 weeks of annual leave and her 1 week of sick leave. In addition, I have used all of the annual leave I've accrued this year(I get 14.5 hours/.month) for the same reason. I'm not allowed to use sick leave for sick children, though I have a large number of hours accumulated, something like 2 months worth. Sick kids require me to take vacation time. Once that's gone, I'm left with either lying (ie saying I'm sick when I'm not) or taking leave without pay, which screws up health insurance and retirement plans.

Thank goodness we got off the consumerism treadmill when we did. Our goal was to get our monthly expenses down to a level where we could live off my salary. When we started this plan, my entire check couldn't take care of our "bills", much less living expenses.

First thing we did was take our 2 kids out of daycare. Immediately, we were pocketing $1000 a month.

In the last month I've seen a dramatic change in my kids and my wife. Everyone is happier now. Much less stress. Personally, I hated the two income lifestyle. Getting the kids ready for daycare each day is a major PITA. Then, half the time when I dropped them off, they cried for me not to leave them. This is not a good way to start off your day, trust me. then, when one gets sick, they can't go to daycare, so somebody has to stay home. As I noted above, that works for a while, until both spouses' leave is exhausted.

My wife's stress levels have also decreased dramatically due to the change. Amazingly, my "sickly" children have been illness free since we stopped attending day care. Coincidence? Maybe.

My wife is now doing a little contract work (~10 hours/week) so we're not going under financially. We're close to being able to live off my income but not there yet. She likes the fact that she can work when she wishes, and I believe it does her good to have a little time to herself away from the house. Although the reduced income has put a wrench in our debt elimination plan, the tradeoff of a happier family is worth it.

We continue with getting rid of useless possessions (thanks EBAY) and minizing our expenses.

The biggest benefit of the one income family IMO, is the lower stress level enjoyed by all. Quality of life is not measured by possesions and 6 figure salaries, I have discovered. Too bad I didn't figure that out 10 years ago when I was feverishly running up debt and buying stupid crap I didn't need like home theatre systems, trick mountain bikes, hot rod speed parts, and massive amounts of music cds, among other things.

My 2 cents

[Rochester]

My wife and I are just starting our family and we've been working it so that if needed she can afford to stop working or only work part time. By the time our first is born we'll only have our mortgage and student loan payments.

Current home projects include added insulation and a new coal stoker furnance next fall. We live in a walkable village suburb on the mass transit line. We both had strong "old world" grandparents that influenced us so we have a big garden and are pretty self sufficient. Hopefully the telco's wont be going broke too soon since that's where I work.

Most people truely mis-measure what quality of life is. I still probably spend too much, but energy consumption doesn't have to be a huge part of ones life if you organize it right.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Amazingly, my "sickly" children have been illness free since we stopped attending day care. Coincidence? Maybe.

[thorn]

My wife stopped fulltime work just before our daughter was born. We had bought out enough from the DC area near where I work so we would have a small enough mortage for 1 salary. I'm about 14 miles from work. We have some land and grow a garden, trying to expand it if the critters do not eat most of it. We have a simple energy efficient house that should keep the energy bills down once PO hits. Funny, we always knew that PO would hit, but I did not know it could be so soon. I thought it would be 20 years down the road.

The prices of land/housing have gone up so much that we would not be able to do it now. Not sure what our kids will be able to afford to buy in the future.

She wants to homeschool, I wonder if anyone here homeschools?

It gets harder every year, taxes, insurance, have gone up alot. Has anyone else notice how much food prices have gone up in the last year or so??!! Helps to have a garden...

[Roy]

We are seriously considering the home schooling option due to the school situation here.

Public ed is a wreck in this parish (county) and forced bussing for "integtration" is the MO. The public school system here is over 80% african-american. The majority of the private ed is religious based and very pricey. I've posted on it in detail here

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic3277.html

Also, admissions to these private schools is competitive. Since we're not rich, I don't see much chance of my kids getting admitted, even if I could afford it.

My oldest just turned 4 so I have another year to figure something out.

[Claudia]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', 'W')e are seriously considering the home schooling option due to the school situation here.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

I have long raged about the intolerance of corporations towards families. One of the biggest reasons daycares are germ factories is because when kids are sick most parents will take them anyways (because their employers penalize those who have to take time off for sick kids) thereby making more kids in the daycare ill.

Its a typical backward thought process that results from the concept that kids do not have value until they are consumers. I hate it. I got laid off from a job because one of my daughters got pneumonia twice in one spring. (quite possibly becuase I rushed back to work after a week off and the same illness recurred - who knows!)

I recently had to start home schooling my 11 year old son 1/4 into the school year. It can be a lot of work, you have to be amazingly consistent and organized but there are some good programs out there. Lots of the better ones again have a religious slant.

the best way to approach it is to contact your school district and get them to send you copies of the learning outcomes for the grade your child is going into. This will give you the basis for choosing what programs and workbooks you choose for your kid. The join a homeschooling group, they are invaluable and can give you tons of inside info and tips.

they also give you are resource for gym or playdates to make sure your kids get the necessary socialization.

believe it or not Harvard saves 10% of their enrollment #'s for homeschooled kids.

[I_Like_Plants]

Public schools in the US are mainly about preventing education.

Forced busing, taking happy, healthy, well-adjusted kids who are doing well academically and forcing them to ride an hour or two each way into schools where crime is rampant, disease, violence, etc. Homeschooling is the only way to survive for the people who are (a) decent and (b) non-rich.

Hate to say it folks but this issue alone is enough to swing the next election to the Repubs again, because the dems just don't understand things like this - their kids are doing fine in the elite private schools they put them in, and they don't see any problem. So they're all for busing your kids into the inner city.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'P')ublic schools in the US are mainly about preventing education.

Forced busing, taking happy, healthy, well-adjusted kids who are doing well academically and forcing them to ride an hour or two each way into schools where crime is rampant, disease, violence, etc. Homeschooling is the only way to survive for the people who are (a) decent and (b) non-rich.

Hate to say it folks but this issue alone is enough to swing the next election to the Repubs again, because the dems just don't understand things like this - their kids are doing fine in the elite private schools they put them in, and they don't see any problem. So they're all for busing your kids into the inner city.

[jmacdaddio]

I thought forced bussing was on the wane after the 1980s ... it's shocking to see it's alive and well.

The main problem with US schools is that they're generally funded by local property tax revenues. If the local area is a ghetto or trailer park, the schools are destined to be horrible. Wealthier towns have better schools, which drives up property values, which adds to the wealth and improves the schools, keeping the loop intact.

In NJ the inner-city districts get about the same funding as suburban districts thanks to federal and state supports. The money ends up going down the drain, usually to a school board's brother's company who gets the "renovation" contract or other kickback schemes.

[linlithgowoil]

my wife and i have 2 young boys, one is just over 2 and one is just over 1 yr old. I work full time in Edinburgh, 13.5miles from home and i leave in the morning at about 8.15am and get home at about 6pm usually.

We do OK on my income of £15,700 per year (rising to £23,000 per year at end august when im qualified), but we certainly cant really afford expensive luxuries, and we don't want them either.

Our current monthly expenses is covered by our income - just. We have nothing left at the end of the month and no savings.

The problem we have is our debt. Its slowly reducing, but we pay about £430 a month in debt repayments. We won't be debt free till end of 2010, which is just as good as saying 'never' - given PO is hitting now.

My wife loves being at home with the children and i think everyone should live that way. I've no idea why women wanted to go out to work 40 hours a week - can any woman clear that up? I thought you all had it pretty sweet not working, getting everything bought for you and only having to worry about doing housework and looking after children. Sounds great to me.

2 income families have ruined it for everyone. Children are delinquent little brats, the prices of housing etc. have skyrocketed etc. etc.

[nocar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I've no idea why women wanted to go out to work 40 hours a week - can any woman clear that up? I thought you all had it pretty sweet not working, getting everything bought for you and only having to worry about doing housework and looking after children. Sounds great to me.

[thorn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nocar', '
')Part time, six hours/day work for all, has been on the agenda of women's organisations for about 30 years in Sweden. That would create both time for good family life and gender equality. But it has always been ended with "well, a reform to do in the future, when the economy allows it" (Although some legalities have come out of the work for that: if you have children under 12 you have the legal right to work 30 hrs/w, but have to cut your income too. Quite a number of women take advantage, few men - why?). Right now only the Green Party is pushing for reducing work hours.

nocar

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he dems just don't understand things like this - their kids are doing fine in the elite private schools they put them in, and they don't see any problem.

[hull3551]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nocar', '
')I'll try:
1. Lots of women...

[Roy]

Take Back Your Time sounds like a great idea.

But the corportations will NEVER allow it. It cuts into their bottom line.

Astute posters on this board have pointed out that short term profits are the #1 concern. Any CEO that doesn't make short-term profits isn't a CEO for long.

Humans are seen as a resource to be exploited. Period. All the nice talk about families is just that. See your Human Resources department LOL

I work for the state and profits are not an issue. We get 22 vacation days a year, 18 sick days, and 14 holidays. Name one private company in the US that gives a similar package. Every private enterprise engineering job I had started out with 1 week of vacation per year or something similar.

When I mention my employer's annual leave policy to people in private industry they stare in disbelief.

But in Europe I think everyone gets at least 4 weeks of vacation. I don't know if that's legislated or not.

Here, if you can't come to work, there's always someone who doesn't have a kid, or who doesn't care, that can fill your position -- probably for less money. Bottom line is lower wages/less wages = more short term profits.

It frustrating and I'm starting to believe that there is no hope for our American system as it is. It is too far gone and the only chance for a decent future will involve the dissolution of the current government, either by peaceful or violent means, and the creation of a new ideal. One that recognizes the value of things other than money.

How do we get there? That's for the smarter posters on this board to plan.

I just know we need to get somewhere that this society as it is structured today will NEVER go.

rant over.

[hull3551]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', '
')Here, if you can't come to work, there's always someone who doesn't have a kid, or who doesn't care, that can fill your position...