[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'D')oomers are crazed loners with no career, children or financial security. They have stumbled on Peak Oil and are using it as a pretext to project their immature rebellious anti-authority complexes on oil consumers.

Cornucopeans are mature well adjusted productive members of society. They are personally attractive, well groomed sophisticates who toil away thanklessly for the good of all mankind.

I think that's a fair balanced assessment and would like to nominate it for post of the week.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'D')oomers are crazed loners with no career, children or financial security. They have stumbled on Peak Oil and are using it as a pretext to project their immature rebellious anti-authority complexes on oil consumers.

Cornucopeans are mature well adjusted productive members of society. They are personally attractive, well groomed sophisticates who toil away thanklessly for the good of all mankind.

I think that's a fair balanced assessment and would like to nominate it for post of the week.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')People that say they are Sophisticated and Attractive are a lot like women who claim they are Virtuous and a Lady. If they must go around and point this out others, then they are probably neither...

[PrairieMule]

Ok, here is one I dreamed up and put on a post a few months ago

NEOCON-The glass is half full, I bought a SUV

ENVIROMENTALIST-The glass is half empty, I ride a bike

SOMEONE WHO HAS A CO-DEPENDENT PERSONALITY WHO JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT PEAK OIL. -It doesn't really matter if the glass is half full or empty or what car I drive. I had a plan and you, the car let me down. So did George Bush and the Oil companies, they let me down and made other plans. Somebody needs to listen and provide me empathy for my situation..I will never be right until I get confirmation of my worth through verbal positive affirmations

[Lokutus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'D')oomers are crazed loners with no career, children or financial security. They have stumbled on Peak Oil and are using it as a pretext to project their immature rebellious anti-authority complexes on oil consumers.

Cornucopeans are mature well adjusted productive members of society. They are personally attractive, well groomed sophisticates who toil away thanklessly for the good of all mankind.

I think that's a fair balanced assessment and would like to nominate it for post of the week.

[jupiter422]

This thread is still going. ........It seems like the open discussion page, can't go a week without having this exact topic posted . over and over and over and over and over.............................................................................................................. whblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah again.... and again..........................................and again.

I'm glad everyone is getting some where with this.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')Just look at all the doomers on this site; most of them think the sky will fall and hence don’t give a crap about conservation. They are helping make the sky is falling scenario come true.

[Lokutus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')The difference is that I believe we’ll come out of this okay.

[MonteQuest]

I think people who wish to be taken seriously will stop using either term so cavalierly. Scientists and academics don't sit around calling each other doomers and anti-doomers. This is just a variation on the ad hominem attack. Name calling.

It shows a childish lexicon and a projected angst.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')People believe in Jevon’s paradox like it’s a law of God. “Can’t conserve… that will make it worse… must keep driving and pumping the A/C and eating food grown thousands of miles away…”

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')That is a gross distortion of the facts. And if you don't know it, I suggest you reread the threads on it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')Just look at all the doomers on this site; most of them think the sky will fall and hence don’t give a crap about conservation. They are helping make the sky is falling scenario come true.

[smiley]

I've been following the discussions on this board for a few years now. What strikes me is how polarized the Doomer vs Cornucopian debate is, and how little progress there has been made in making both ends meet. The same seems to be happening in the outside world. Which is unfortunately, really, because in our handling of PO and related issues a common view or at least the ability to communicate with each other about these issues, has to be a definite pre,.

Because if PO is the most important event in the past centuries, and this debate is central to the issue, then this is the most important debate that we have held in a very long time.

In this tread I would like to analyse the type of mindset which leads to both types of thinking. I'm not hoping to find an agreement or a common ground, but to understand why the communication between both parties is so difficult and unproductive and how to resolve it.

I'll kick off with my view and hope you can comment or offer different views.

Cornucopians view PO as a collection of separate problems with weak or non-existent inter-linkage. Each problem can thus be addressed separately. This is a very practical way of thinking as both problem and solution can be specified precisely. It is an optimistic view since most problems can be broken down to as size where they are solvable.

However the danger of this type of thinking is that the interaction between the different problems and the interaction between the different solutions is ignored. Cornucopian's solutions are often flawed in a sense that they ignore the broader consequences of their 'solutions'.

Doomers acknowledge this inter-linkage, in fact it is central to their theories. They not only view PO as one big problem, but PO itself as a part of a much bigger problem, usually referred to as The Big Picture (TBP). As the TBP encompasses economical, sociological, environmental as well as geological factors it is an extremely hard issue to define. Doomers therefore tend to speak in general terms, like Techno-Fix, Powerdown, Die-Off.

The danger of this approach is that (partial) solutions seem insignificant to the size and extend of the problem and are therefore ignored. Thinking in like general terms leads to general conclusions like "Techo-Fixes won't work", an opinion which is based on the average assessment of proposed technical solutions and ignores individual solutions.

It seems to me that the main problem between Cornucopians and Doomers is one of scale.

If you look at a typical debate. It starts of with a problem of a certain scale. The Cornucopian starts to break down the problem to smaller problems which he can handle, and the Doomer starts to enlarge the problem to a scale which he thinks is appropriate. The final situation is something like the Cornucopian talking about the efficiency of his kitchen appliances and the Doomer talking about life the universe and everything. At this point the discussion is taking place at two different levels, both parties are accusing the other of evading the issues and there is very little exchange of ideas.

At this point I get stuck as I can't think of a practical modus of communication between both groups. Perhaps we should pay more attention to the interaction of different issues. If we can define which issues are strongly, moderately or weakly linked we can divide PO into a subset of problems on a scale both Cornucopians and Doomers are comfortable with.

[Pops]

Great observation Smiley!

I find myself an Optimistic Doomer because while I believe there are many interrelated problems on the macro scale that could coalesce into The Big One, I hope I can make enough adjustments on the micro scale to get by.

I guess one reason I don’t often get involved in the macro-scale debates is simply because they don’t often lead to any actionable conclusion. Perhaps that is the point of discussing the macro because reaching a actionable conclusion would mean the talking would have to stop and the doing start.

Speaking of which, I better get to doing something

[NEOPO]

You are assuming that we all see the problem and the solutions are universal.

If we increased our population from 1 billion to 6.5 billion because of oil then its sorta natural that we revert back to 1-2 billion without oil.

Since oil is not going away all at once then the population will lower as the oil does or so goes the theory.

Why even try to prevent it?

I am ready to survive this struggle - I am more prepared then most and its only been one year of awarenesss for me and I am still preparing so to see oil deplete year after and to also watch the population go down as well is similar to watching my garden live in the spring and die in the fall.
(Note : the fact that I plan to survive means I am not a doomer

It appears to be a natural process.

In a sense, the denial and rationalization we get from the corns is their own death wish and at this point thats perfectly f****** fine with me!!!

All we do is exploit consume and move on.
Cheap energy has allowed us to do much of this.

The best food supply in history yet more people die of starvation then ever - thanks Aaron.
The best medical yet more people die of preventable disease then ever - thanks Aaron.

etc etc et f****** cetera.

It is not very surprising that a disposable society might accidentally toss its own future into the bin along with the rest.

Np - We will be diving in the dumpster retrieving the goodies that they left behind.

I am very comfortable with the idea that the weakest genetic links shall be removed from our string - even if that includes members of my family or even myself if MOM believes I am unfit to be a steward of the ground I walk on.

So the problem to me is overpopulation and PO is part of the solution.

Why would I want to spend my time thinking of these so called "solutions" when they are actually only more problems?

[EnergyUnlimited]

It is worth to note that politicians MUST take cornucopian stand, if they want to be reelected.

Even admitting that PO may be of relevance to "ethernal growth" and that it may stop it will often result in broken career in politics NOW.

[Dreamtwister]

For me, it's a question of thermodynamics. Complex systems require inputs of energy. As energy input decreases, society becomes more simple. The problem arises that, once society has degenerated to a less complex form, much of our basic knowledge may be lost. There may not be sufficient access to life-sustaining skills.

Skills that everyone once had, such as bushcraft, hunting, trapping, basic gardening and home first-aid skills have been replaced by skills like computer programming, macro-economics and advanced metalurgy. Skills that are dependant on complex society's continuation to be useful. What difference does it make if I know the melting point of tungsten if there's no tungsten and I can't feed my family?

The simple fact is, many people will die before they can re-aquire these skills. If that makes me a doomer, then so be it.

[DoomersUnite]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '
')The simple fact is, many people will die before they can re-aquire these skills. If that makes me a doomer, then so be it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') guess one reason I don’t often get involved in the macro-scale debates is simply because they don’t often lead to any actionable conclusion. Perhaps that is the point of discussing the macro because reaching a actionable conclusion would mean the talking would have to stop and the doing start.

Speaking of which, I better get to doing something

[NEOPO]

Heck Ludi - If I had more stuff to do I would be doing it

My new wave leaning cuke trellis is complete and I am trying to cool off after some midday sun baking.
I built it with extra everything even though we will be selling this place shortly.
The next family will hopefully be wise enough to know what it is and use it accordingly.

As for me and mine we are a few days away from owning some prime acreage - just getting the title/deed search done (7-10 business days) and then much work to be done which means little or no forum for me.

I know it seems that alot of what we say here means little or nothing but I want to assure everyone that for each sentence we type there are maybe 50 or 100 people touched by it.
Maybe negatively maybe positively yet it was NOT the positive that brung me about to my current pro active PO stance so................. fuck em if they cannot take a joke or the truth

Kunstler, Deffeyes, Campbell, Simmons, Bartlett, Bartlett and Savinar and many more - These peoples words woke me up.
I personally read this forum for weeks before uttering one word.

So as long as we have time to type a bit, time to sit someone down and try to explain PO etc etc... then I believe we should.

It is not a waste of our time yet it is also not the most productive when we have to start from square #1 with every newbie corn that pops onto this forum yet ultimately it keeps us sharp and only serves to reinforce the message.

For all of those stuck inbetween reality and illusion heres a huge canary in the mineshaft for you - seeing people like Ludi and others not being here as often or possibly one day - not at all.

Take us as we come because we cant stay long