[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'I') can think of several.
1. Tack a percentage to each mortgage payment as property tax. When the mortgage is finished, the taxes are finished - until the property has a new owner.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '[')Mommy AND Daddy have to work now because their taxes are so high ...

[I_Like_Plants]

Mommy's and Daddy's taxes are much higher than in the 1950s but Pops makes an extremely good point - sheer consumerism. Buying every new doodad, having a color TV in every room, $80 cable bills, $100+ a month cell phone bills, etc. People do NOT live like they did in the 1950s, now. Back before things went all to shit for our family, we lived middle class but we still didn't have all this shit people do now. One car, on B/W TV, we did have lots of books, but we had things like "a" shovel and "a" spade for working in the garden, "a" trowel, "a" push mower, one frying pan, one waffle iron, etc. Think of the way things are owned now - multiples of everything because the "latest greatest" comes out every few years, so the clutter is just amazing. No one does their own yard work, they get all the doodads then still hire a Mexican to do it. Exercise equipment? What's that? We had a tree house Dad made out of 2 old doors. We actually had more shit than a lot of people and most people had these really Spartan existances and were perfectly happy.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'M')ommy's and Daddy's taxes are much higher than in the 1950s but Pops makes an extremely good point - sheer consumerism. Buying every new doodad, having a color TV in every room, $80 cable bills, $100+ a month cell phone bills, etc. People do NOT live like they did in the 1950s, now. Back before things went all to shit for our family, we lived middle class but we still didn't have all this shit people do now. One car, on B/W TV, we did have lots of books, but we had things like "a" shovel and "a" spade for working in the garden, "a" trowel, "a" push mower, one frying pan, one waffle iron, etc. Think of the way things are owned now - multiples of everything because the "latest greatest" comes out every few years, so the clutter is just amazing. No one does their own yard work, they get all the doodads then still hire a Mexican to do it. Exercise equipment? What's that? We had a tree house Dad made out of 2 old doors. We actually had more shit than a lot of people and most people had these really Spartan existances and were perfectly happy.

[I_Like_Plants]

Yes storage for junk has been a growth industry for at least a decade. I know someone who gets Section 8 rent which means a huge apartment for about $350 a month, and spends another $350 a month on storage for the most useless junk, no sentimental or functional value, I have ever seen. And then gripes about being short of money......

The brainwashing to have lots of STUFF and to define yourself in terms of your STUFF is very strong - when I had very little stuff, I pined for the day that, someday, I'd be able to have a lot of stuff.

[da23]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')We had a tree house Dad made out of 2 old doors. We actually had more shit than a lot of people and most people had these really Spartan existances and were perfectly happy.

[Hawkcreek]

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[eastbay]

This entire conversation, much like so many here at po.com, are indeed difficult for me. I'm trying to shift my thinking discussing such matters as one would during the 'normal' human-interaction paradigm to that of an entirely new set of political, economic, and social affairs which The Survivors will experience during the (probably) brutal decades after The Peak.

IMO terms such as socialist, libertarian, capitalist... etc... will, over time, be rendered less meaningful, at least until the dust settles. So however much fun such discussions may be, current political concepts will likely not be very relevant in the decades to come.

[Tyler_JC]

In my town, senior citizens are allowed to rack up as much property tax debt as they want.

The debt is added as a lien against the house and when the house is eventually sold or given away in a will, the buyers/heirs pay the back taxes.

Relatively few senior citizens chose to do this because they aren't fully instructed on how to do it, but the process is relatively simple.

Local property taxes generally pay for local services.

The problem with local sales taxes to pay for those services is that there would be an inevitable race to the bottom in order to attract local retail shops.

Local towns would be revenue starved and services would be shut down, making the towns unlivable, and everyone would be miserable.

Basically, a town-by-town sales tax would be a disaster.

At least we have some control over our local property taxes and property tax rates rarely become a race to the bottom in order to attract residents. We would have far less control over a state income/sales tax to pay for local services.

New Hampshire, a traditionally Libertarian state, has very high property taxes but no sales or income taxes. Why? Because all of the tax money is collected locally and it stays local.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'T')hey didn't have Wally world junk, but I know a lot of hard working people today who can't afford Wally World junk, and it still takes both the husband and wife working to afford the necessities for the family.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('da23', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')We had a tree house Dad made out of 2 old doors. We actually had more shit than a lot of people and most people had these really Spartan existances and were perfectly happy.

[Hawkcreek]

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[gnm]

While I appreciate your honesty Eastbay, we'll just have to agree to disagree.... Personally if I could never really own something, as in I couldn't pass it on too my children etc then I would truly feel like a slave. Its bad enough as it is...

What I don't understand is the thinking process among leftists... Given that
a. They think that elites and big money control politics and the government.
b. They think we should give more individual rights and money to the government.

(I agree with a.)

While I agree somewhat Pops that people over consume now I like to use the income/house argument when comparing with my parents. When my dad left college his annual income was roughly 1x the cost of a nice new suburban house in California... When I left college it would take more like 4x my income to purchase the same in New Mexico!... And we won't even discuss health care costs etc... I don't consider myself a rampant consumer. We don't have satellite or cable. I don't collect gadgets and have even let my (pay as you go) old cell phone expire... I see some of what you describe among X'ers but I see more just trying to keep their heads above water...

-G

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '
')Ok, not true. In the 1950's a man could provide for a family without the wife working. They didn't have Wally world junk, but I know a lot of hard working people today who can't afford Wally World junk, and it still takes both the husband and wife working to afford the necessities for the family. That seems like a large cut in pay to me. And the government took a much smaller slice out of the middle class paycheck in the 50's also.
If you argue that the standard of living today is better than 50 years ago, you go against the perceptions of most older people who remember those days. And much of that reduction is caused by excessive taxes and the hidden tax of inflation.

[Pops]

G you are arguing from a position of power – your chosen location suits your values.

I would guess it took somewhat of a different outlook and dedication to those values to find your place instead of following the herd; I applaud you.

Point being there are certainly a majority of locations not as fortunate and completely dependant on infrastructure – and it only follows that someone must pay for that infrastructure.

How far do you think a municipal water, sewer, school, police, fire, etc system get on voluntarily contributions?

[Hawkcreek]

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[Pops]

To me a Lefty is as populist and Righty is for the status quo.

I know; bumper stickers, wedge issues and the fringe groups have changed those connotations since Nixon’s really inspired Southern Strategy worked so well.

Still my thought.

[eastbay]

gnm,

Yeah, that's cool... but I still think this entire right-left discussion will be rendered moot in a few years. It will all boil down to hungry vs
not- hungry, dry vs wet, and cold vs not- cold, murdered vs not-murdered... things like that.

In other words, we'll all begin to focus more and more on the lower realms of Maslow's pyramid of hierarchical needs.

[Hawkcreek]

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