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4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 12:19:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')And God forbid anyone claim that doom isn't literally hours away or they will be accused of heresy and burned at the stake.


Or endlessly called trolls for daring to notice, without the eloquence, of every point in your post!

I'm back on the fense as to whether or not this is as much a cult of belief as anything else.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Look, I'm worried about peak oil. I had (what I think) was an anxiety attack last week and was in the ICU with an IV in my arm over cumulative stress and worries over how I'm going to get myself and my daughter through the combined sh*tstorm of the US economic collapse, peak oil, and global warming. So I am not some kind of shortonsense denier when it comes to the big picture.


Please!! I've been preparing for peak since the big one back in 1979....I've already gone through the anxiety phase, planned accordingly, and now am reaping the benefits of such foresight. The next time oil peaks again, another decade, maybe two, you will be better off than this time for having felt that anxiety, it will have motivated you to prepare!
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 12:28:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'G')ive me a data point.


I already did.

Image
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 12:32:29

[smilie=3some.gif] Bravo Mos, probably your best essay I've read here.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 12:39:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '[')smilie=3some.gif] Bravo Mos, probably your best essay I've read here.


I agree.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 14:39:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou all hate me because I am an expert.


Yeah, but this isn't a website specializing in proctology, so it doesn't matter.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby dorlomin » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 14:45:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'L')ike Brutus I have slung the arrows of infamy
Care to expand on this, or at least explain where you got it from?
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 15:13:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'L')ike Brutus I have slung the arrows of infamy
Care to expand on this, or at least explain where you got it from?
It's a semi-literate joke that means absolutely nothing. And if you want to extrapolate, makes social points, and paint it as symptomatic of my overall lack of analytic and rhetorical skill than have had it. :razz:


Boy Pstarr, I'd say that horse is already out of the barn, down the road, and well into the next state by now..... :lol:
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby dorlomin » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 16:15:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'L')ike Brutus I have slung the arrows of infamy
Care to expand on this, or at least explain where you got it from?
It's a semi-literate joke that means absolutely nothing. And if you want to extrapolate, makes social points, and paint it as symptomatic of my overall lack of analytic and rhetorical skill than have had it. :razz:
Ah just thought you had your Hamlet and Julius Ceaser mixed up.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 16:15:42

Everyone is missing the monetary element.

The Federal Reserve controls the money supply. The Fed makes money cheap in order to allow the economy to grow quickly. Cheap money makes it easier to get capital for investment and reduces interest rates so consumers can get loans. Cheap money creates an economic boom. This economic boom pushes up demand for commodities like oil, wheat, copper, steel, etc.

As demand grows faster than supply, the price of commodities jumps. Then manufacturing prices jump...then retail prices...

Then the Fed decides that the economy is growing too quickly and pulls the reins in, pushing up interest rates, crashing speculative bubbles, and bringing us into recession.

The boom years push up oil prices, recessions pull them back to Earth.

It's not the high oil prices that are causing the recession. They are just a symptom of an underlying monetary phenomenon.

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Doesn't that look like a better correlation than this one:

Image
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 17:10:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou all hate me because I am an expert. God! I have tried to be a kind and generous leader. I have licked your wounds, bound your nether regions, and have prostrated myself before your consensus. Like Brutus I have slung the arrows of infamy and in a resounding call to hams I have been rejected. Like a brontasauraus before the little velicoraptors. I am befuddled. Woa is me.


This shtick was done better the first time, when it came out of the keyboard of ReverseEngineer.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 17:23:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ')I had (what I think) was an anxiety attack last week and was in the ICU with an IV in my arm over cumulative stress and worries over how I'm going to get myself and my daughter through



You'll probably be fine longer than a lot of people if you have enough $$ to spend time in the ICU over a panic attack. :)

I hope you're getting some treatment for your anxiety disorder.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 17:25:42

MACBETH
She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 17:37:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Then bludgeon people repeatedly. Like when you just stated that $120/barrel is reasonable, but $147 is fake.


The 60 minutes piece on oil speculation attempted to say that ALL of the oil spike was speculation rather than supply and demand. For me to say that $27 worth of the oil spike is speculation is highly conservative and a fair estimate.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')You are pissed off because "the peak-oil movement" or whatever, is failed.


Is that unreasonable? I would prefer that peak oilers not sabotage the goal of peak oil awareness with "climategate" type errors.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')-exponential population growth and resulting planetary resource depletion,
-Deffreyes' version of Hubbert's method,
-discovery shortfalls and megaproject analysis
-inability of producing nations to respond to historically high oil prices with significant production increases
--6.7% field declines
-eroei, net-energy analysis and shortcomings of alternative fuels (including gunk)
-export-land(tm) phenomena and the evolving global balance of energy and money


Fair enough. And nothing here spells out "peak oil caused the credit crisis".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')When your prove YOY new supply/production numbers could eve 30 billion let me know. The rest is oil company public relations and scared-people conjecture. I am not scared and I see the truth. WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF OIL. Sorry to be so freakin' blunt about it. Hope that doesn't hurt our image :razz:


My point is that new supply will alter the timelines that peakers have written in stone. If peakers allow their predictions to ossify into dogma, and disregard unusual datapoints like this year of discovery, shale gas, demand destruction via the global debt-bomb, etc... then they are being just as ignorant as Michael Lynch and the deniers. You have to maintain an open mind.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')There is no movement.


Someone notify these guys.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')I...mostly only respond to jerks or for a laugh.


Which is the definition of trolling.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby dsula » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 18:21:43

Are you serious, Gentlemen? Fighting over such detail? Real-estate was supposed to happen with or without PO. PO made it happen a bit sooner. The same as chronic trade gap will eventually bring the US down to 3rd world level (if nothing changes). PO will only make it happen faster. The same as population growth will eventually lead to famines, with or without PO. PO will just make it happen faster.
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Re: Shadow Stats

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 23:06:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Olaf', 'I')nteresting web page that I came across. Someone has probably posted it before, but thought I would share.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

Olaf


Thank you Olaf, this is the site I was thinking of earlier when I was talking about how distorted our current set of government approved and released stats are for things like GDP.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 09:24:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')mports don't tell the whole story. Price is more important, and we all know oil prices in the early 90s were at historic lows, imports or no imports.

And that does make you wonder if there wasn't some sort of backdoor agreement where oil prices are kept low in exchange for US pushing Saddam out of Kuwait and away from Saudi Arabia...
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: 4% of GDP is $80 oil = Recession

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 09:26:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bratticus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bratticus', '
')
Do you have any explanation of why this was done?


Because the financial players had found a way to collect a fee up front for making a bad loan and then passing any potential future losses onto some chump. In the end, that chump became the US taxpayer.


So why did it take until the 21st century to try it?

Because entrepreneurial schemes, err... innovation, evolves slowly.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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