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1st post! Question to Peakville!

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby NEOPO » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 01:48:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'E')nergy return on coal is so low that sasol is one of the most successful companies in SA.
whoopdie freakin doo :)


Pstarr - Please cease and desist using one of my trademarked dismissives or my team of attornies led by Matt Savinar will have you in court before you can say "Biofool"!!! ;-)

uhm Monte hit on something that needs to be repeated IMHO.

Last year was not "normal" by any standard.
This years fall in price is not 100% natural either yet natural economic cycles as well as may other factors determine the price.
Starting from last year looking forward some people wanted to believe that the price was going to go up and up.
SPR data - goldman sachs gasoline downgrade as well as the economic effect of a year of $2.75 average gallon of gas is taking its toll.
Energy = economy.

In the context of petrol dollar warfare I view it like this.
If the price goes down The U.S. is winning and if it goes up The U.S. is losing.
I think anyone who understands the petrol dollar, fiat currency and geopolitics can concur.
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby Doly » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 07:40:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 't')hat's real smart. using coal to produce shale oil. Why not liquify the coal? duh
I think I'll take a stab at answering that.

Because we don't have time (see Hirsch et. al.), and the energy return is too low (see South Africa and Nazi Germany).


Pstarr, I hope you aren't saying that turning coal to shale and then to gasoline and other oil products would work better than liquifying coal straight away to obtain gasoline, etc. Because anybody with a notion of chemistry will tell you that if you go from compound A to compound B, any route you take, you will have to use exactly the same amount of energy (or obtain the same amount, if the reaction produces energy). The only difference is that in some cases, you may be going up and down energy levels, and some of that energy could get lost in the surroundings. So you always try to take the most direct route.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 08:04:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')s for Boston Philie Chicago and the rest. sure you can walk to the grocery store. Most drive to work.


These big cities have to looked at neighborhood by neighborhood, not as as a whole. There are many smaller cities and towns that are 'walkable'.

You have to distinguish between places where it is possible to walk to work, or take transit to work and places where it is not even an option.

Where I live, every option is feasible for many (walk,bike, transit etc) but if its super easy to drive a mile or two and you have a free parking space, many elect to drive. The point is, if gas became $10/gal, the people that have the choice of whether to drive or not for work, grocery's, schools, and everything else will be in a much better position than those that do not have a credible choice and often have to drive long distances daily for these basic needs of life.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby gnm » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 11:19:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'W')here I live, every option is feasible for many (walk,bike, transit etc) but if its super easy to drive a mile or two and you have a free parking space, many elect to drive. The point is, if gas became $10/gal, the people that have the choice of whether to drive or not for work, grocery's, schools, and everything else will be in a much better position than those that do not have a credible choice and often have to drive long distances daily for these basic needs of life.


Well that may be fine for those who live inthe few "walkable" commiunities left but I don't see how they can expect to be doing well if all the "unwalkable" communities are in desperate straits. I would expect you could walk to the local grocery just to find it empty, and you could walk to your job (except you wouldn't have one anymore).

Someone on here mentioned a step down collapse being most likely. It seems reasonable enough. recession, rinse, repeat until the whole country looks like Zimbabwe....

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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 14:08:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'W')ell that may be fine for those who live inthe few "walkable" commiunities left but I don't see how they can expect to be doing well if all the "unwalkable" communities are in desperate straits. I would expect you could walk to the local grocery just to find it empty, and you could walk to your job (except you wouldn't have one anymore).

Someone on here mentioned a step down collapse being most likely. It seems reasonable enough. recession, rinse, repeat until the whole country looks like Zimbabwe....

-G


Annecdotal evidence tells me that the number of walkable communities including revitalized citie cores, small towns, and new urbanist communities is on the rise. But regardless, I tend to agree with the step down or sawtooth theory. To me that mean that you best get changin, or else as energy gets expensive, the higher-energy lifestyle will just suck a greater and greater percentage of your wealth. Where I live might not be the best due to the surrounding farmlands being used up by sprawl. Places like where Kunstler is might be better - small towns surrounded by farmland. Who knows, but my advice would be that regardless of how much energy you use, try to move your situation and that of your community to one where you could, if needed live on less. Sounds obvious to me, and my community but I guess not to everyone. And yes, it does worry me that those that aren't moving in this direction might just drag us all down with them.

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http://www.energybulletin.net/21272.html

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Oh shit, there's die-off.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby Draco » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 14:43:55

Obviously the mods here, or at least the one who has responded to me have hidden agendas and appear to be shills for the oil industry. Maybe even CIA type activities of a disinformation campaign. Clearly disregarding this adminstration and practically everyone in a position of power comes from the oil industry and claiming I am incorrect merely because I point out a few simple truths creates a serious concern over the freedom of the board. So I will leave on this note. Thank you and hope your research is more fruitful than mine concerning this manner!
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby Dezakin » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 18:16:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'E')nergy return on coal is so low that sasol is one of the most successful companies in SA.
whoopdie freakin doo :)

Yeah, millons of barrels a day from CTL in a decade is totally unimpressive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat do you think I was talking about? I was talking about process energy for tar sands, and I think theres too many alternative process energy sources that are better in the area for running the tar sands projects to make coal attractive.
such as?

THAI technology
MSAR
nuclear reactors
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'n')uclear. on the tundra. and what do you use for cooling?????
Yeah nuclear. There is some cooling water avaliable, and you can use air cooling.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h damn. They must have really conned the central office when the spent those billions on infrastructure in the Ft Mac area. Must have been a wild night at the strip club.when I say infrastructure i do not mean heavy truck, loaders, and strip clubs. I mean pipelines attached to refineries attached to pipelines.
There are pipelines and refineries, just not wellheads... Except for in-situ mining techniques, where there are 'wellheads'
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his can never happen as long as the stuff must be mined not drilled. There is nothing at all similar about an oil field and a strip mine. One is self-perpetuating and the other is an employment strategy.
Infrastructure to you isn't infrastructure to the rest of the business world. okay. There isn't any infrastructure in Alberta. Except the pipelines and refineries.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby Dezakin » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 19:46:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'Y')eah, millons of barrels a day from CTL in a decade is totally unimpressive.
where did you get that number. Try 150,000 barrel/day in South Africa from 3 SASOL plants.

And hundreds of thousands of barrels a day in projects going online now in China, with more going online in China, US, and India. Its a growth industry.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')HAI technology
MSAR
nuclear reactors


Again let me repeat. Nuclear. on the tundra. and what do you use for cooling????? You said air cooling???? no.

There isn't a shortage of water for cooling in Canada, but air cooling certainly works. Why do you think cooling will be a problem?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for THAI and MSAR those are untested, nonscalable gimmicks.
Everything is untill its tested and scaled up.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 21:26:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Draco', 'O')bviously the mods here, or at least the one who has responded to me have hidden agendas and appear to be shills for the oil industry. Maybe even CIA type activities of a disinformation campaign. Clearly disregarding this adminstration and practically everyone in a position of power comes from the oil industry and claiming I am incorrect merely because I point out a few simple truths creates a serious concern over the freedom of the board. So I will leave on this note. Thank you and hope your research is more fruitful than mine concerning this manner!


Me? A shill for the oil companies? CIA?

What a hoot!

You seemed unable to rebutt what I said.

So, you posit that farmers can manipulate the price of corn?

I guess you need to do a little homework on how oil is traded and how the price is determined.

Hidden agenda?

Click on the link in my signature. I'm the site admin there.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby NEOPO » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 21:48:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Draco', 'O')bviously the mods here, or at least the one who has responded to me have hidden agendas and appear to be shills for the oil industry. Maybe even CIA type activities of a disinformation campaign. Clearly disregarding this adminstration and practically everyone in a position of power comes from the oil industry and claiming I am incorrect merely because I point out a few simple truths creates a serious concern over the freedom of the board. So I will leave on this note. Thank you and hope your research is more fruitful than mine concerning this manner!


Denial and rationalization my friend.

People run for cover when confronted with the truth.
Conspiracy is one of the most commonly used "shields".
The real conspiracy is the supression of Peak Oil.
The real lie is that biofuels or other will save us.
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 22:27:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'w')alkable? new york city. 1 million rich manhattan yuppies surrounded by 30 million suburbanites who all commute?

As for Boston Philie Chicago and the rest. sure you can walk to the grocery store. Most drive to work.

laughable.


So MTA, MBTA etc are nothing more than highways in disguise?
Man have you ever been in NY, Boston, Phile, Chicago etc?
There are people who actually live in downtown, walk to the grocery store and ride whatever their local transit authority has to offer.
These systems show what is possible in the right price environment ...
The majority of the NY commuters DO NOT ride their cars to work ... start adding the numbers of the major metropolitan areas (that includes freekin' Atlanta too) and you can come up with a rather interesting figure about the % of the US population who is actually shielded (or can be shielded) by high energy prices as far as transportation is concerned.
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Re: 1st post! Question to Peakville!

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 12 Oct 2006, 22:43:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Dezerkin, are their really air-cooled nukes? sound ridiculous.
.


I'm afraid there are:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')US PATENT 2,836,554 (Air Cooled Neutronic Reactor); E. Fermi, L. Szilard; May 27, 1958. A nuclear reactor of the air-cooled, graphite moderated type is described.


Note the date 1958 ..... (source)

Also check the following reference (behind a subscription wall unfortunately):

Nuclear Reactor at Brookhaven National Laboratory

More recently the THTR-300 used an air-cooling system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THTR-300

The Chinese have been doing it since the 60s ... check out the following declassified piece of intelligency by CIA ! It is from 1964! (source)

Sounds obvious to me ...
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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