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Peak Money: a permanent change

Peak Money: a permanent change thumbnail

The end of economic growth:
the recession that will not end in our lifetime

 

We are past limits to growth, this is not a cyclical recession

Some of the media, government elites, and the financial world knew the 2008 financial crash was imminent but feigned surprise in public while planning their exit strategies and wargaming how to manage and manipulate the crisis to protect their power (not just more profits). The financial meltdown is not a cyclical recession, it is a permanent economic shift. The End of Growth transcends ideologies and partisan politics.

Now that we are at Peak Everything we need to move beyond Peak Denial and Peak Blame to equitably share the shrinking economic pie. Even if transnational corporations were converted into democratic, locally owned cooperatives, we have still overshot Earth’s carrying capacity.

 

Steady state economics for an ecological society

The dominant paradigm teaches money is the most important value, energy conservation and ecological sanity are nice if we can afford them.

Most of the environmental movement has embraced the concept of the Triple Bottom Line, which suggests that the economy needs to consider ecology and social justice issues. While it is good to factor these into economic decisions, the deeper truth is the environment makes the economy possible. Energy creates money, not the other way around. No jobs on a dead planet.

It is probably not a coincidence that many of the political voices calling attention to the problems of fiat currency, the Federal Reserve and other structural problems rarely mention the underlying ecological limits – and worse, some of them seem fixated on Jewish bankers who allegedly run the world.

We need to weave together social justice advocates with understanding of how fiat money is created and that we have reached the limits to infinite growth on a finite planet.

Monty Python - the very big corporation of America
The Very Big Corporation of America from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life

www.peakchoice.org/peak-electricity.html
Renewables for a Steady State Economy by Mark Robinowitz

Using solar energy for twenty years (and wind power for ten) taught me that renewable energy could only run a smaller, steady state economy. Our exponential growth economy requires ever increasing consumption of concentrated resources (fossil fuels are more energy dense than renewables). A solar energy society would require moving beyond growth-and-debt based money.

After fossil fuel we will only have solar power, but that won’t replace what we use now. We need to abandon the myth of endless growth on a round, and therefore, finite planet to have a planet on which to live. Will we use the remaining fossil fuels to make lots of solar panels and relocalize food production instead of waging Peak Oil Wars?

 

from Extraenvironmentalist.com – interview conducted at Northwest Permaculture gathering, October 2012
permaculture design, steady state economics, peak money, solar energy, limits to growth
www.peakchoice.org/audio/interview-mark-robinowitz.mp3
15 minutes, 33 megabytes

 


 

The thermodynamic value of money:

money to burn


 

economic experts

understanding links between energy and money

 

ASPO USA: Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas, USA

from the ASPO-USA Peak Oil Notes, October 29, 2009
Association for the Study of Peak Oil
www.aspousa.org
Quote of the day:

“(Steven Chu, US Secretary of Energy) was my boss. He knows all about peak oil, but he can’t talk about it. If the government announced that peak oil was threatening our economy, Wall Street would crash. He just can’t say anything about it.”
— David Fridley, scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory,
quoted in an article by Lionel Badal (see Peak Oil News, 10/28, item #23)

 

Automatic Earth

Nicole Foss

 

 

Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy

www.steadystate.org

“A steady state economy can be compared to a mature forest ecosystem. The forest does not grow in aerial extent, but it is a complex, dynamic, and evolving system.”

 

Colin Campbell, petroleum geologist, founder of ASPO, invented “Peak Oil” term

“Once you realize that this cheap, abundant, easy oil isn’t there, that tells you that virtually every company quoted on the stock market is now overvalued.”

 

www.aspo-ireland.org/contentFiles/newsletterPDFs/newsletter95_200811.pdf
“future historians will probably look back and see this as one of the great turning points for mankind. In short, debt has been premised on eternal economic growth based on flat-earth economic principles, without recognising that the growth depends on cheap energy that will no longer be available after the peak of oil production as imposed by Nature.”

 

“as we move beyond the age of oil and beyond the economy that is driven by the age of oil, we enter an entirely new world – there really are frankly no experts anywhere who can come forward and say exactly what we do in this situation – it is entirely new to everybody’s experience – there are no investors who can say this is a good investment in this situation, there are no politicians who can say this is how we should behave in this situation, even in a humble business way there is no business that can plan its future because every single aspect of its future is going to change and so we are left with a sort of vacuum”
— Colin Campbell, founder of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil www.peakoil.net
quoted in “Peak Oil: Imposed by Nature”

 

John Michael Greer

www.resilience.org/stories/2015-06-03/the-era-of-breakdown

John Michael Greer

….

The problem we face today, in the United States and more broadly throughout the world’s industrial societies, is that all the institutions of industrial civilization presuppose limitless economic growth, but the conditions that provided the basis for continued economic growth simply aren’t there any more. The 300-year joyride of industrialism was made possible by vast and cheaply extractable reserves of highly concentrated fossil fuels and other natural resources, on the one hand, and a biosphere sufficiently undamaged that it could soak up the wastes of human industry without imposing burdens on the economy, on the other. We no longer have either of those requirements.
With every passing year, more and more of the world’s total economic output has to be diverted from other activities to keep fossil fuels and other resources flowing into the industrial world’s power plants, factories, and fuel tanks; with every passing year, in turn, more and more of the world’s total economic output has to be diverted from other activities to deal with the rising costs of climate change and other ecological disruptions. These are the two jaws of the trap sketched out more than forty years ago in the pages of The Limits to Growth, still the most accurate (and thus inevitably the most savagely denounced) map of the predicament we face. The consequences of that trap can be summed up neatly: on a finite planet, after a certain point—the point of diminishing returns, which we’ve already passed—the costs of growth rise faster than the benefits, and finally force the global economy to its knees.
The task ahead of us is thus in some ways the opposite of the one that France faced in the aftermath of 1789. Instead of replacing a sclerotic and failing medieval economy with one better suited to a new era of industrial expansion, we need to replace a sclerotic and failing industrial economy with one better suited to a new era of deindustrial contraction.

 

Growth Busters

“it’s a cold political reality that today no candidate can win election on a platform that respects the laws of physics on a finite planet.”
— Dave Gardner, “Who Will Get This Economy Moving? No One,” Nov 05, 2012
www.growthbusters.org/2012/11/who-will-get-this-economy-moving-no-one/

 

Charles Hall

 

 

Richard Heinberg, Post Carbon Institute

“The End of Growth”
www.postcarbon.org

from The End of Suburbia (2004) DVD
Chapter 8
Richard Heinberg, author, “The Party’s Over”

the consequences of global oil peak for the average family may not be immediately apparent
because energy prices and the economy are so closely intertwined, that would probably result in an economic recession.
the underlying direction of events would be toward decreased economic activity because there would be less energy available to fuel economic activity
people would be wondering why we’re in recession after recession and why every recession seems to be a little bit worse than the last one
it takes longer to get out of it and then we never quite get out of the recession
until finally it would come to the point after a few years where the recession would turn into an economic depression
and in this case it will be one that never ends

 

David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture

David Holmgren, the co-orginator of permaculture, is author of Future Scenarios: How Communities can adapt to Peak Oil and Climate Change.

“Economic recession is the only proven mechanism for a rapid reduction of greenhouse gas emissions
… most of the proposals for mitigation from Kyoto to the feverish efforts to construct post Kyoto solutions have been framed in ignorance of Peak Oil. As Richard Heinberg has argued recently, proposals to cap carbon emissions annually, and allowing them to be traded, rely on the rights to pollute being scarce relative to the availability of the fuel. Actual scarcity of fuel may make such schemes irrelevant.”
www.futurescenarios.org

“Awareness of Climate Change by the media and general public is obviously running well ahead of awareness about Peak Oil, but there are interesting differences in this general pattern when we look more closely at those involved in the money and energy industries. Many of those involved in money and markets have begun to rally around Climate Change as an urgent problem that can be turned into another opportunity for economic growth (of a green economy). These same people have tended to resist even using the term Peak Oil, let alone acknowledging its imminent occurrence. Perhaps this denial comes from an intuitive understanding that once markets understand that future growth is not possible, then it’s game over for our fiat system of debt-based money.”
— David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture
“Money vs. Fossil energy: the battle to control the world”
www.holmgren.com.au

David Holmgren (co-originator of permaculture) has some of the best understanding of energy issues.
podcast February 12, 2014
http://c-realm.com/podcasts/crealm/401-psycho-social-debt-jubilee/
401: Psycho-social Debt Jubilee
KMO welcomes permaculture co-originator David Holmgren to the C-Realm Podcast to discuss two of his essays: Money Vs Fossil Energy: the Battle for Control of the World and Crash on Demand: Welcome to the Brown Tech Future. David has been tracking the onset of climate change and peak oil for many years, but he says that in recent years, largely due to the work of Steve Keen and Nicole Foss, he has come to see financial systems as the fastest moving and most volatile element in emerging global crisis. He describes why he considers the Bush administration to have been guided by a certain energy realism lacking in too many social and climate activists. Finally, he describes why he thinks that multiple generations of mass affluence has left us saddled with a psycho-social debt that will be very difficult for us to discharge.

“The dip in global emissions created by the 2008 global financial crisis was ignored by the climate activist community as an inconvenient truth.”
“Crash on Demand: Welcome to the Brown Tech Future,” by David Holmgren (co-originator of permaculture)
http://holmgren.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Crash-on-demand.pdf

 

M. King Hubbert

excerpt from Richard Heinberg, “The Party’s Over,” pp. 91-92, discussing M. King Hubbert, the geologist who first figured out the math behind Peak Oil. Hubbert predicted in 1956 that the USA would peak around 1970, he was pilloried for this but the USA did peak in 1970. Hubbert later predicted that the world would peak in the mid 1990s, but then cautioned this might get pushed back a decade due to the oil shock of 1973, which is what happened. Hubbert initially thought nuclear power would be the post-fossil fuel solution but changed his mind and said solar energy was the answer, but this would require giving up exponential growth and learning to live within natural limits on a finite planet. — Mark

 

Hubbert immediately grasped the vast economic and social implications of this information [Peak Oil]. He understood the role of fossil fuels in the creation of the modern industrial world, and thus foresaw the wrenching transition that would likely occur following the peak in global extraction rates. …

The world’s present industrial civilization is handicapped by the coexistence of two universal, overlapping, and incompatible intellectual systems: the accumulated knowledge of the last four centuries of the properties and interrelationships of matter and energy; and the associated monetary culture which has evolved from folkways of prehistoric origin.
The first of these two systems has been responsible for the spectacular rise, principally during the last two centuries, of the present industrial system and is essentially for its continuance. The second, an inheritance from the prescientific past, operates by rules of its own having little in common with those of the matter-energy system. Nevertheless, the monetary system, by means of a loose coupling, exercises a general control over the matter-energy system upon which it is superimposed.
Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growh for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest.

Hubbert thus believed that society, if it is to avoid chaos during the energy decline, must give up its antiquated, debt-and-interest-based monetary system and adopt a system of accounts based on matter-energy — an inherently ecological system that would acknowledge the finite nature of essential resources.
Hubbert was quoted as saying we are in a “crisis in the evolution of human society. It’s unique to both human and geologic history. It has never happened before and it can’t possibly happen again. You can only use oil once. You can only use metals once. Soon all the oil is going to be burned and all the metals mined and scattered.”
Statements like this one gave Hubbert the popular image of a doomsayer. Yet he was not a pessimist, indeed, on occasion he could assume the role of utopian seer. We have, he believed, the necessary know-how, all we need do is overhaul our culture and find an alternative to money. If society were to develop solar-energy technologies, reduce its population and its demands on resources, and develop a steady-state economy to replace the present one based on unending growth, our species’ future could be rosy indeed. “We are not starting from zero,” he emphasized. “We have an enormous amount of existing technical knowledge. It’s just a matter of putting it all together. We still have great flexibility but our maneuverability will diminish with time.”

 

www.hubbertpeak.com/hubbert/monetary.htm

“Two Intellectual Systems: Matter-energy and the Monetary Culture”

(summary, by M. King Hubbert)

During a 4-hour interview with Stephen B Andrews, SbAndrews at worldnet.att.net, on March 8, 1988, Dr. Hubbert handed over a copy of the following, which was the subject of a seminar he taught, or participated in, at MIT Energy Laboratory on Sept 30, 1981.

“The world’s present industrial civilization is handicapped by the coexistence of two universal, overlapping, and incompatible intellectual systems: the accumulated knowledge of the last four centuries of the properties and interrelationships of matter and energy; and the associated monetary culture which has evloved from folkways of prehistoric origin.

“The first of these two systems has been responsible for the spectacular rise, principally during the last two centuries, of the present industrial system and is essential for its continuance. The second, an inheritance from the prescientific past, operates by rules of its own having little in common with those of the matter-energy system. Nevertheless, the monetary system, by means of a loose coupling, exercises a general control over the matter-energy system upon which it is super[im]posed.

“Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability.”

“With such relationships in mind, a review will be made of the evolution of the world’s matter-energy system culminating in the present industrial society. Questions will then be considered regarding the future:

  • What are the constraints and possibilities imposed by the matter-energy system? human society sustained at near optimum conditions?
  • Will it be possible to so reform the monetary system that it can serve as a control system to achieve these results?
  • If not, can an accounting and control system of a non-monetary nature be devised that would be approptirate for the management of an advanced industrial system?

“It appears that the stage is now set for a critical examination of this problem, and that out of such inquries, if a catastrophic solution can be avoided, there can hardly fail to emerge what the historian of science, Thomas S. Kuhn, has called a major scientific and intellectual revolution.”

 

The following is from an article entitled “King Hubbert: Science’s Don Quixote,” in the February 1983 issue of Geophysics magazine, by Robert Dean Clark, assistant editor:

“Hubbert has had serious health problems for several years. Both his eyesight and hearing now give him problems. But neither the ailments nor the recent adulation have eroded his zest for intellectual combat. In recent years, he has assaulted a target–which he labels the culture of money–that is gigantic even by Hubbert standards. His thesis is that society is seriously handicapped because its two most important intellectual underpinnings, the science of matter-energy and the historic system of finance, are incompatible. A reasonable co-existance is possible when both are growing at approximately the same rate. That, Hubbert says, has been happening since the start of the industrial revolution but it is soon going to end because the amount of [that the?] matter-energy system can grow is limited while money’s growth is not.

“‘I was in New York in the 30s. I had a box seat at the depression,’ Hubbert says. ‘I can assure you it was a very educational experience. We shut the country down because of monetary reasons. We had manpower and abundant raw materials. Yet we shut the country down. We’re doing the same kind of thing now but with a different material outlook. We are not in the position we were in 1929-30 with regard to the future. Then the physical system was ready to roll. This time it’s not. We are in a crisis in the evolution of human socienty. It’s unique to both human and geologic history. It has never happened before and it can’t possibly happen again. You can only use oil once. You can only use metals once. Soon all the oil is going to be burned and all the metals mined and scattered.’

“That is obviously a scenario of catastrophe, a possibility Hubbert concedes. But it is not one he forecasts. The man known to many as a pessimist is, in this case, quite hopeful. In fact, he could be the ultimate utopian. We have, he says, the necessary technology. All we have to do is completely overhaul our culture and find an alternative to money.

“‘We are not starting from zero,’ he emphasizes. ‘We have an enormous amount of existing technical knowledge. It’s just a matter of putting it all together. We still have great flexibility but our maneuverability will diminish with time.’

“A non-catastrophic solution is impossible, Hubbert feels, unless society is made stable. This means abandoning two axioms of our culture…the work ethic and the idea that growth is the normal state of life….”

During his interview with Dr. Hubbert, Mr. Andrews asked him for his updated perspective, five years later, about his comments as quoted in the article above. He said:

“our window of opportunity is slowly closing…at the same time, it probably requires a spiral of adversity. In other words, things have to get worse before they can get better. The most important thing is to get a clear picture of the situation we’re in, and the outlook for the future–exhaustion of oil and gas, that kind of thing…and an appraisal of where we are and what the time scale is. And the time scale is not centuries, it’s decades.”

 

Martin Luther King

I want to say to you as I move to my conclusion, as we talk about “Where do we go from here,” that we honestly face the fact that the movement must address itself to the question of restructuring the whole of American society. There are forty million poor people here. And one day we must ask the question, “Why are there forty million poor people in America?” And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I’m simply saying that more and more, we’ve got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life’s marketplace. But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. It means that questions must be raised. You see, my friends, when you deal with this, you begin to ask the question, “Who owns the iron ore?” You begin to ask the question, “Why is it that people have to pay water bills in a world that is two-thirds water?” These are questions that must be asked.
Now, don’t think that you have me in a “bind” today. I’m not talking about communism.
What I’m saying to you this morning is that communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both. Now, when I say question the whole society, it means ultimately coming to see that the problems of racism, the problem of economic exploitation, and the problem of war are all tied together.
— Martin Luther King, “Where do we go from here?” August 16, 1967

 

James Howard Kunstler

“This is not so much financial bad weather as financial climate change”
— James Howard Kunstler

 

http://kunstler.com/blog/2011/02/next.html

All forms of government in recent times find themselves in the same predicament: the mismanagement of contraction. Too many people and too many enterprises are competing for a contracting resource base. In many poor countries it expresses itself plainly as expensive food, or no food at all for some. The expensive food part of the story is already being felt in the wealthier countries, too, but the contraction expresses itself more in terms of money – many people do not have enough, or else much less than they were used to having, and at the same time the money that does circulate seems increasingly worthless. So we have the great debate over whether the contraction is deflationary or inflationary.
That debate could not happen if money retained its essential meaning as a reliable medium of exchange, but the idea of what exactly money is, is becoming increasingly clouded everywhere as compound interest fails in the face of contraction. And as compound interest fails – in the form of loans that can’t be repaid – the banking system implodes. This implosion has been artfully papered over with enough accounting tricks so that many citizens do not even perceive it as being underway.

 

………………………………………………..

peak choice



158 Comments on "Peak Money: a permanent change"

  1. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:42 pm 

    Neder, I believe China and the US are larger exporter than Germany. Germany also has social problems. You are an extremist so i would expect these mistakes out of you.

  2. Cloggie on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:43 pm 

    Who cares greggie if you have American relations so does silly billy. Be honest greggie, you hate Americans. This has been proven for 5 years now. You enable billy’s message of hatred. You guys are a gang who stalk and prick Americans. Why is it so hard to be a honest person?

    No he doesn’t, he has issues with the US government and its enablers like you. Count me in as well. Most Americans I met in my life during international projects were fine folks, easy going, open minded people. It’s just the Soros/neocon types in Washington who spoil everything… and need to be removed from power (we Europeans are good at that, just saying. We did it before with the British.lol).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRlatDWqh0o

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_v3hqtCl0

    https://documents1940.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/paul-krugman-white-americans-are-losing-their-country/

  3. MASTERMIND on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:45 pm 

    Davy

    You are outnumbered by a million to one! All you are preparing for is your last stand…Keyword is last! And heroin makes people feel good does that mean everyone should do it?

  4. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:45 pm 

    “Who cares greggie if you have American relations so does silly billy.”

    Mad Kat is an American, and has been an American for longer than you’ve been alive.

    “Be honest greggie, you hate Americans.”

    More of your usual delusional accusations.

    “You enable billy’s message of hatred.”

    Mad Kat doesn’t like the direction the the US has taken. Unlike you, he doesn’t support the brutal murders of millions of innocent people.

    ‘You guys are a gang who stalk and prick Americans.”

    Only flag waving exceptionalist deviants such as yourself. It doesn’t make any difference to me which tax farm you were born into. You could be Swahili for all I care.

  5. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:46 pm 

    “No he doesn’t, he has issues with the US government and its enablers like you.”

    Correct.

  6. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:47 pm 

    “Most Americans I met in my life during international projects were fine folks, easy going, open minded people.”

    Also correct.

  7. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:50 pm 

    Neder, greggie is a closet Nazi like you so what kind of answer is that? You are two history revisionists conspiracy addicts. You both are extremist of the worst kind so sure you are going to support him. You both think your shit don’t stink. Add billy in with your peas in a pod and what we get is a polarized forum.

  8. Cloggie on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:52 pm 

    Neder, I believe China and the US are larger exporter than Germany. Germany also has social problems. You are an extremist so i would expect these mistakes out of you.

    You believe too much and verify too little. For you facts are “anti-American”. Glad to be an “extremist”, whatever that may mean.

    https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies/germany-is-capital-export-world-champion-overtakes-china-693481

    Germany has the largest export SURPLUS. But even in absolute terms, the figures are staggering for a mid-sized nations like Germany.

    Export in Trillion $

    1. EU – 2.66
    2. China -2.01
    3. USA – 1.47
    4. Germany – 1.28
    5. Japan – 0.64

    “Lazy Europeans” outshine everybody else.

    Questions, Davy?

    https://qz.com/872526/europe-turned-on-the-galileo-satellite-navigation-system-which-will-be-much-more-precise-than-gps/

    http://www.medaltracker.eu/

    https://documents1940.wordpress.com/2017/09/26/origin-scientific-accomplishments/

    Give it up Davy, the American Era is over. The old master is back in town.

  9. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:53 pm 

    Greggie, you can talk until you are blue in the face but your years of being an extremist stand on there own. You hate Americans and stalk and prick them exclusively. Plain and simple.

  10. MASTERMIND on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:57 pm 

    Banks, Movies, Restaurants, Auto Sales, Smart Phone Sales, Retail, all collapsing!

  11. Cloggie on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:58 pm 

    Neder, greggie is a closet Nazi like you so what kind of answer is that?

    I think Nazis are sexy:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/S-IC_engines_and_Von_Braun.jpg

    And btw, you admitted that your family came to the US shortly after the war. According to you your father is Czech and mother German. Since folks weren’t that mobile in 1946, it is reasonable to assume that your ancestors of your mother’s side were Sudeten-Germans, right. 10-1 that your grandmother/father were fine Nazis and Hitler supporters, like most Sudeten-Germans. As you might have guessed I am not holding that against them, far from it. But then again I understand history from my own research and not from the (((History Channel))).

  12. Cloggie on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 12:58 pm 

    Banks, Movies, Restaurants, Auto Sales, Smart Phone Sales, Retail, all collapsing!

    When will you collapse, not a minute too early?

  13. Hello on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 1:01 pm 

    >>> export SURPLUS

    Not good. Somebody’s surplus is somebody else’s deficit. That’s how instability comes about.

  14. MASTERMIND on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 1:03 pm 

    Banks, Movies, Restaurants, Auto Sales, Retail, Farmers, Smart Phone Sales, all collapsing! Limits to growth was right!

  15. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 1:39 pm 

    Notice how nedernazi has to constantly backtrack from his bragging. Neder, instead of alway trying to be number 1 why not try to be accurate. You are an extremist liar who fudges comparisons routinely. Just be honest. No wonder you and greggie are buddies you think and act alike

  16. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 1:41 pm 

    Now you are a nederliar. My dad’s family came here in 1849 and moms side in 1860’s.

  17. Cloggie on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 2:00 pm 

    “Now you are a nederliar. My dad’s family came here in 1849 and moms side in 1860’s.”

    You recently made a remark about 194x, if memory serves, about your ancestors coming to the US. You don’t remember that? Perhaps a typo. I don’t make these things up.

  18. Cloggie on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 2:06 pm 

    “Just be honest.“

    There is absolutely nothing you can teach me about honesty. I have never experienced a more feeble-minded propagandist of that murderous empire of yours than you, although you love to wrap your activity as “defending the American people” rather than what you really defend, name the American-nation destroying massmurdering scumbags that own An]merica, of which you love to imagine being a part. And you know it as you always avoid a real discussion, because you know you would lose such a discussion.

  19. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 2:43 pm 

    “You both are extremist of the worst kind so sure you are going to support him.”

    Cloggie and I don’t always see eye to eye, but in his below quoted comments, I completely agree with him.

    “No he doesn’t, he has issues with the US government and its enablers like you.”

    “Most Americans I met in my life during international projects were fine folks, easy going, open minded people.”

    And I also completely agree with this statement:

    “And you know it as you always avoid a real discussion, because you know you would lose such a discussion.”

    You argue like a little girl Davy.

  20. MASTERMIND on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 3:09 pm 

    Davy

    Greg is a nazi sympathizer! He is part of the radical right!

  21. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 3:18 pm 

    I do not lean left or right. I have no political affiliation. Nothing more than a means used to control the dumbed down masses.

  22. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 4:01 pm 

    Greggie loves his support network. It makes him feel more right. Both you and neder are contortionist. You bend the truth to fit your agendas. At least neder has something to say sometimes. Most of the time you are just stalking or pricking and IMA dishonestly. Your biggest concern is protecting your dirty honor.

  23. MASTERMIND on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 4:12 pm 

    Dow plunges more than 1,100, largest single-day point drop in history
    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/dow-drops-1500-points/story?id=52854673

  24. MASTERMIND on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 4:18 pm 

    Sure Greg everyone is all under total control by the government! And you are of course not and smarter than everyone else! The hubris!

  25. shortonoil on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 4:21 pm 

    To date over 3,000 exoplanets have been identified. They appear to be nothing more than a pile of broken, barren rocks. The earth is obviously a rare jewel in the crown of the universe. By comparison, it is fabulously rich; rich with life. Perhaps we should spend more effort on preserving what remains of our jewel, and pay a little less attention to collecting what we imagine to be money. It is fast becoming such a primitive notion.

  26. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 5:31 pm 

    “You bend the truth to fit your agendas.”

    There is only one person on this board with a clearly set forth and self admitted agenda. That person would be you Davy, and your emotional attachment to that agenda is clouding your ability to think and act rationally. ( If that was even a possibility to begin with, which is highly doubtful. )

  27. Mad Kat on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 5:33 pm 

    Open minded intelligence vs closed minded exceptionalists. Peace vs Warmongers. Growing economies vs dying ones. We know which side Davy and MM are on. The losing side of all three.

  28. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 5:38 pm 

    greggie, billy is up drinking his coffee so you two can play games now. LOL. You guys are sure a pair.

  29. GregT on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 5:54 pm 

    “You guys are sure a pair.”

    Two individuals, who have never met, and live over 10,000 km away from each other. And Davy, I don’t have the same bond with Mad Kat as you do.

    The pair of you are both US Americans.

  30. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 6:01 pm 

    you guys have a special relationship greggie quit being so defensive. You both have those tendencies. Its ok, be honest with yourself. That drunk night in November you spilled the beans. We know what you like.

  31. Mad Kat on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 6:33 pm 

    Greg, Davy doen’t understand open minded intelligence as he has none. It is easy to agree when you know and accept the real world and not the delusional brainwashed one he lives in. He is wasting his time posting comments to me as I just ignore any that start with Davy or MM. He has no defense for his murdering terrorist country. None.

  32. Davy on Mon, 5th Feb 2018 6:42 pm 

    Sure you do billy. Lol. You are so predictable. How many times have you said the same thing only to change your tune. I could care less if you respond or not. The fact I have you so paralyzed wiith fear shows success. If you were half a man you would be able to debate the issues but instead you hide like a wimp.

  33. TheNationalist on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 3:32 am 

    What do you call a sophisticated American?

  34. TheNationalist on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 3:33 am 

    A Canadian.

  35. Davy on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 5:04 am 

    What do you call a sophisticated Canadian?

    What I see on this forum is far from sophisticated. There are a few good ones from time to time like Paulo and yellow canoe. The current ones are trash. The disgusting Canadian influence here is on the wane. If we could only get warped billy off this forum could actually be respectable.

  36. TheNationalist on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 7:02 am 

    I agree it has diverged somewhat. All this talk of conflict is pointless and off topic. It’s a shame cloogy calls for a civil war in America. Europeans know what that feels like with fascism vs communism and it caused total devastation and nothing but human suffering.
    I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy. The fact is the blame lies with many nations, aristocrats and groups of people. We should all be eternally greatful to the many dead Russian, American, and Dutch etc youth who fell in the corner of a foreign field (to lie forever in many cases) so that our grandfathers didn’t need to.

  37. Davy on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 8:14 am 

    I wish we could depolarize the forum. I have offered a variety of solutions to those I battle with but these people are extremist and have no point in lowering their extremist agenda. BTW, I am also an extremist but not by choice. I am battling scumbags who preach ill will towards everything in my world. I am responding like in kind. Fire with fire is my policy with enemies. This is the nature of civil wars and we are at war here. Civil wars are destructive wars. There is no booty because all is destroyed in the end. The primary blame goes out to the Canadians and anti-American BillyT. I am now part of the blame because I have joined in. This is the nature of a bad peace that turns to war. These asswipes have heaped endless emotional hate on who I am. I now give them grief in return.

  38. GregT on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 8:20 am 

    All Wars Are Banker’s Wars

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QlunSNY5B48

    Those who ignore history, are destined to repeat it.

    You are an enabler Davy.

  39. Davy on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 8:37 am 

    grehggieT is the quintessential conspiracy addict and anti-American stalker/pricker. When greggie gets up in the morning he thinks “me wow”. Lol.

    “ALL WARS ARE BANKER WARS” only a simpleton would say that.

  40. GregT on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 8:57 am 

    Those who ignore history are destined to reapeat it.

    The four or so people on this Internet forum, who you believe that you are at war with, are not the ones responsible for the direction that all of our countries are heading in. That can be blamed almost entirely on debt.

    Fiat money, loaned into existence, created out of thin air, with interest attached.

    The fact that you continue to ignore this, and fight against those who do not support it, speaks volumes to your ignorance. Either that, or you are a paid shill.

  41. MASTERMIND on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 9:27 am 

    Davy

    You can easily tell how uneducated Greg is because wars do not increase economic growth. Its called the “Broken Window Fallacy”..This is basic economics 101..But people like Greg have no education and believe in lunatic conspiracy theories on youtube! LOL

  42. GregT on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 10:35 am 

    eCON 101 is a failed ideology that ignores basic physics, mathematics, biology, ecology, and the limits to growth on a finite planet.

  43. JuanP on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 10:40 am 

    Micromind, You should learn how to write properly before calling other people uneducated, illiterate fool!

  44. Davy on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:08 am 

    Greggie, you are responsible for a polarized forum. You are clueless about what debt means. Debt is not responsible for all the world’s problems. People like you greggie, are what is wrong with the world, not debt.

  45. MASTERMIND on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:20 am 

    Davy

    Next Greg will say its the Jews running the banks and he will go full circle conspiracy loon!

  46. GregT on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:24 am 

    “People like you greggie, are what is wrong with the world, not debt.”

    That’s right Davy. I’m so important that I’m affecting the lives of 7.6 billion other people, and living 2 generations beyond our means isn’t responsible for the world’s problems at all.

    You are one seriously messed up individual.

  47. MASTERMIND on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:32 am 

    The ‘Deep State’ Conspiracy Is How Fascists Discredit Democracy
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-deep-state-conspiracy-is-how-fascists-discredit-democracy

  48. GregT on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:35 am 

    “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

    ― Benito Mussolini

  49. MASTERMIND on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:55 am 

    Greg

    What’s funny about that Mussolini quote is if you google it. All these far right libertarian blogs comes up with they squealing that it’s a fake quote! LOL

  50. onlooker on Tue, 6th Feb 2018 11:57 am 

    Which is exactly what we have in the US and other rich countries leading to what you could say is a worldwide Plutocracy

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