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Page added on November 26, 2015

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Driving in the US is at an all-time high

Driving in the US is at an all-time high thumbnail

Remember peak car? Over the past five years, various analysts and writers have been wondering whether driving in the United States might finally be going out of style. Their reasons: Overall road travel has been dropping since 2008. And there was at least anecdotal evidence that younger Americans preferred city life to suburban sprawl.

Well… it’s time to revise those think pieces. This year, Americans are driving more than they ever have before. Peak car isn’t upon us just yet.

Let’s start with this chart, from Bill McBride of Calculated Risk. Total vehicle miles traveled has been surging of late, with the 12-month rolling average hitting another all-time high in September 2015:

(Bill McBride/Calculated Risk)

The rate of growth has been particularly striking: In September 2015, vehicle travel on all roads and streets was fully 4.3 percent higher than in September 2014. Over the past year, as Reuters’ John Kemp points out, vehicle traffic has grown at its fastest rate since 1997.

But, of course, some of this can be chalked up to simple population growth. There are more people in the United States with each passing year, which generally means more drivers. So a better metric, arguably, is vehicle miles per capita. To that end, Doug North of Advisors Perspective offers the population-adjusted chart below.* Vehicle miles per capita remains lower than it was back in 2005, but it’s nonetheless been rising sharply over the last year:

(<a href="http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/DOT-Miles-Traveled.php">Advisor Perspectives</a>)

(Advisor Perspectives)

Either way you slice it, driving has been making a comeback of late. So what’s going on? Is this just a blip — or might America be returning to the faster rates of VMT growth we saw in the 1980s and ’90s?

Cheap gas and a stronger economy are overwhelming the anti-driving forces

A few years ago, when car travel was declining, many people (including me) wondered how much of the drop was due to temporary economic factors — the recession, especially — that would eventually reverse and how much was due to a more lasting cultural shift away from cars, particularly among young people.

Clearly those economic factors mattered a lot. The 2008 recession had far-reaching impacts: it meant that fewer people had jobs and fewer people were commuting to work. Many younger Americans weren’t making enough money to buy their own cars. There was less truck traffic on the road. But now that the economy’s picking up again, driving is going up with it. That shouldn’t come as too much of a shock.

The bigger surprise was the drop in gasoline prices. Between 2008 and 2014, global crude oil prices were at historic highs, north of $100 per barrel, forcing people to cut back on trips. Many experts thought this dynamic would persist indefinitely. But it didn’t. By the summer of 2014, oil prices began plummeting worldwide, thanks to the US fracking boom and weaker-than-expected global demand. Today, gasoline prices in the United States are 35 percent lower than they were in 2013. That’s undoubtedly contributed to the surge in car travel.

On the flip side, there are also some structural factors that are pushing people away from cars. The US population is getting older, and retirees don’t tend to drive as much. What’s more, there’s evidence that (some) younger Americans really do prefer urban life and transit to endless driving, at least on the margins. These structural changes were taking root even before the recession, and they explain why per capita road travel is still hovering below its 2005 peak.

But whatever cultural shifts might be unfolding, they haven’t been enough to offset the effects of cheap gas and an improving economy over the last year. The forces in favor of more driving are currently stronger than the forces in favor of less.

Will driving keep rising rapidly? Or is this just a blip?

(Shutterstock)
An HOV lane stomping on a human face … forever.

This is obviously the big question. The US Energy Information Administration had been expecting car and light truck travel to grow at a sluggish 1.1 percent per year between now and 2040 — a slowdown from historical rates. Is that assumption still correct? Is this year’s uptick in travel just a temporary hiccup? Or might vehicle travel grow faster than expected in the future?

Plenty of people would love to know the answer. States, for instance, have to make predictions about future travel demand to plan highway and roads. If they overestimate future demand, which they were doing back in the mid-2000s, they risk building unnecessary roads. But if they underestimate future demand, they risk not building enough infrastructure.

Then there are the climate and energy implications. As part of the upcoming international climate change talks, the US government is promising that the country’s greenhouse gas emissions will fall at least 26 percent below 2005 levels by 2025. But if vehicle travel ends up growing more quickly than expected, it will be a lot harder to meet this pledge, at least without additional policy measures.

(Side note: the Obama administration has enacted CAFE standards that will crank up the fuel economy of cars and light trucks over time. That should help restrain gasoline demand somewhat. But these standards are also footprint-based, which means they’re less strict for bigger cars than smaller cars. So if cheap gasoline spurs Americans to shift into SUVs and other large vehicles, as appears to be happening right now, it will likely lead to more gasoline consumption and more emissions than originally expected.)

It’s genuinely difficult to know how this will all play out in the decades ahead. What will happen if, say, states or Congress push for further policies to discourage driving, like higher gas taxes, or expanded public transit? What happens if self-driving cars hit the road? Could they end up doubling road travel, as a recent KPMG report suggested? The fact that so many past predictions missed the mark is a nice reminder that over-confident statements about the future are often a bad idea.

 

Vox



76 Comments on "Driving in the US is at an all-time high"

  1. Rodster on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 7:43 am 

    I see we’re still being spoon fed that 2008 was just a recession, it wasn’t. People tend to drive more when gas prices are lower. I’m self employed and when gas prices where $3.50 p/g or higher I would group my service customers in a geographic area during the day. When prices are lower that’s no longer an issue.

    This is just a basic economics situation.

  2. shortonoil on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 7:48 am 

    Maybe they are all driving around looking for a job that pays more than minimum wage?

  3. paulo1 on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 8:38 am 

    Maybe they are driving around in those new 7 year financed underwater new cars?

  4. ennui2 on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 8:44 am 

    Sorry, this contradicts the demand-destruction narrative. They are driving around because the economy is DOING BETTER.

  5. apneaman on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 8:46 am 

    “the anti-driving forces”

    Sounds spooky. Must be invisible, like market forces, because I have never seen or heard of this force before. Here in the greater Vancouver area, the plebs were recently given the opportunity (referendum) to vote on a tax increase for transit. They shot it down. There has been a 100,000 per year increase in population for a number of years here and it’s expected to continue for sometime. Traffic is horrible and getting worse. The youth only say they are choosing not to drive – it’s economics. The explanations are ad hoc. Who the fuck knows where everyone is going. Saturdays are like rush hour all day – consumer zombies driving from one strip mall to the next searching for another short lived dopamine hit.

  6. Rodster on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 9:21 am 

    “Sorry, this contradicts the demand-destruction narrative. They are driving around because THE MAJORITY ARE GETTING SUBPRIME AUTO LOANS AND CAN WALK AWAY IF THEY CAN’T MAKE THE PAYMENTS.”

    There fixed it for ya !

  7. paulo1 on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 9:38 am 

    Apnea,

    As an Islander, it looked to me like the transit initiative was shot down due to fact of obscene pay rate for the chairman, who also double-dipped. I believe he was paid 5X the rate of NYC transit chief doing the same job? It Pissed eveyone off, and the NO side used it with great effectiveness. Don’t worry, you’ll soon have more bike lanes to pick up the slack.

  8. apneaman on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 10:25 am 

    paulo1, of course. The corruption and milking are systemic everywhere now and playing on the base emotions is the order of the day. The plebs don’t want to pay bridge tolls either and have gone to great lengths to avoid them. So much, that the extra traffic on the alternative route over the old Pattullo bridge (1937) has done so much damage that a replacement bridge will be needed soon. In the meantime, a mutimillion dollar band aid patch job will be applied. I guess the grand kids can pick up the tab for that too. It will probably be a toll also if it ever gets built. Everyone wants everything and no one wants to pay for it. Entitled apes. Fuck em. Remember the wind storm a few months back? I thought BC Hydro did a good job of restoring the power in a timely fashion given the circumstances, yet almost everything I heard was bitching and moaning.

    One would have to be suicidal to ride a bike in the city. I’ve been watching the drivers and a great many are fucking around on their black shiny rectangles, or eating/drinking, etc. The pedestrians too. I see them walking into traffic without looking up and bumping into light poles and other stationary objects.

  9. shortonoil on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 10:46 am 

    Yep, the economy is doing great!!

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-26/oil-jobs-lost-250000-and-counting-texas-likely-see-massive-layoffs-soon

  10. Davy on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 11:14 am 

    Isn’t it funny how our comments follow the same pattern of he said “economy good” she said “economy bad” This happens on and on for the many months going on years for some of us. The economy is in the “zone”. Maybe the twilight zone would be the best description. This is a huge complex diverse global world with winners and losers in the neighborhood of a peak in multiple areas because of limits to growth. The attempts by any of us to claim a good or bad economy is the games we play on this board.

    One thing appears certain we are in a new era and this era is uncertain. I find it hard to put a good on that but some can. I find it risky myself. Since this is uncharted waters we will just have to wait and see. I think the biggest indicator of dangers ahead is clearly debt levels and inability of central bank to end financial repression. Oil markets are not healthy as clearly indicated by current prices. I see these two indicators as pointing to dangers ahead.

    I will have to be fair to the cornucopian narrative and acknowledge the fact that things are still ticking along. The global system still works and quite effectively for many. I see the next year as a time for the biggest challenges. The big test I see is how will China negotiates a landing? How will oil prices respond in the next year? Will we have a deterioration of the geopolitical situation in Syria or will the great powers come together in agreement? So many balls are in the air. We will just have to wait and see.

  11. GregT on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 12:56 pm 

    “Sorry, this contradicts the demand-destruction narrative. They are driving around because the economy is DOING BETTER.”

    They are driving around because the price of oil has dropped due to demand destruction. When demand picks up the price of oil will likely rise again, causing further economic damage and further demand destruction. Wash rinse repeat.

    Much of the new production of oil since ’08 is either too expensive for our economies to afford, or not expensive enough for the oil companies to produce. All the King’s horses and all the King’s men, aren’t going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

  12. Anonymous on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 1:44 pm 

    Remove all of the ‘hidden’ artificial props and public subsidies to supports single passenger car travel and the number of car trips would tank immediately, and stay that way. Travel by oil-powered cars is hugely subsidized and until ‘consumers’ start paying the true cost, they will continue to take advantage of the illusory temporary ‘relief’ artificially low gas prices seem to offer. The other reason car miles has not really collapsed, is because the physical environment has not been retrofitted to anything like a human scale.(Rolling back cars dependency would take generations and trillions of dollar-and we are technically bankrupt now so dont wait for it).

    The North American world is still built for cars, and all ‘new’ construction as well as maintenance on existing, is still built for…..cars. In an environment where everything is still built for cars, it should hardly surprise anyone that that is how the overwhelming majority still has to travel.

  13. shortonoil on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 2:17 pm 

    An anecdotal observation:

    I am the care giver for a 42 year old woman in our community that is in the Hospice program. She has less than 6 months to live. I recently made a trip to the county Social Services office to see about an issue regarding her medical bills. She has run up over $2 million worth in the last 2 years. When in their offices I talked to one of their agents, and asked her how many people worked at that location. It is a rather large, and modern facility. She stopped and counted in her head and told me 15. When I went outside to the parking lot I counted the cars there. There were 15, 1,2 and at the most 3 year old SUVs in the lot.

    Not much question where this is going!

  14. marmico on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 2:54 pm 

    Tick tock, tick tock.

    2015 is gonna be another bummer year for the TEOTWAWKI nutter doomers.

    Neo-Malthusian shamans have been wrong for 217 years.

  15. Davy on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 3:42 pm 

    Marmi, it was a bummer of a year for Freddy fluffers like yourself. The economy is stuck in a perpetual rate rut. BTW happy thanksgiving that the nutters have to wait another year. Time is not on the flutter’s side unfortunately.

  16. Rodster on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 4:14 pm 

    short – “I recently made a trip to the county Social Services office to see about an issue regarding her medical bills. She has run up over $2 million worth in the last 2 years.”

    Doesn’t surprise me. Within the last year i’ve been to hospital twice for heart related problems. I was admitted to the emergency room, a doctor walked in asked me basic questions, listened to my heart and lungs and was out the door in less than 10 minutes. An hour and a half later a second doctor walks in and does exactly the same thing and asked the same questions and was out the door in less than 10 minutes.

    I later got the bill and both those 10 minute interviews cost me $500 each. The heart specialist was called in to give his opinion on my troponin levels, $950. Ya, think we got a racket going on here?

  17. Plantagenet on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 4:26 pm 

    They are driving around more because the price of gasoline is low due to the oil glut.

    You clearly can’t attribute record the levels of driving around to “demand destruction” because the record amounts of driving around itself creates demand for gasoline.

    Cheers!

  18. peakyeast on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 4:33 pm 

    If the economy is doing great then how come interest rates are at 0 or BELOW?

    Here in Denmark people taking out short term loans (F1 to F5) 1 to 5 years before having to be “restructured” has even been negative.

    When the government comes to people and says “HERE TAKE OUR MONEY TAKE ALL OF IT” and then tries to stuff it down you throat thru your clenced teeth – does that signal that they are trying to prevent the economy from overheating or undercooling?

  19. marmico on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 5:01 pm 

    The latest EIA callout for August 2015 world production is 80+ million barrels per day of C+C for the 3rd consecutive month.

    http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec11_5.pdf

    Peak oil my ass.

  20. shortonoil on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 6:31 pm 

    “If the economy is doing great then how come interest rates are at 0 or BELOW?”

    The DBI just hit a record low. World trade is absolutely crashing. Even though the US is seeing record lows in manufacturing, and the retail industry is in its death throes it is still doing better than most of the rest of the world. EM money is cascading out of those countries in a flood to the last perceived safe refuge. Treasuries have had pretty good auctions lately, this also means that the US, through a stronger dollar, is getting priced out of any remaining world trade. The US will be the last best dirty shirt to go down. When the FX markets break the US will go with it. Clueless idiots are not the best sources of advise.

  21. Davy on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 7:05 pm 

    Yea, short, here is further evidence the U.S. Is still showing some strength with the rest of the world showing significant contraction. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-26/heatmap-global-capex-shrinkage

    This is an inconvenient reality for people who’s agenda preaches the U.S. is finished. Makster comes to mind. Happy Thanksgiving Makster. Did you make some turkey and dressing?

  22. makati1 on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 7:49 pm 

    VOX MEDIA. A 2014 startup by contributors from such reliable source companies as: The Washington Post, The New York Times, Slate, MSNBC, Bloomberg, etc. No financial source mentioned. Not on my ‘should read’ list.

  23. makati1 on Thu, 26th Nov 2015 7:50 pm 

    “reliable source companies”. Sarcasm BTW. lol

  24. Pops on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 7:49 am 

    They are driving around more because demand destruction?
    Because they don’t have jobs?
    Because they bought a new car?
    because depression?

    LOL
    There is a perfectly plausible PO narrative here but for some reason the fad is high price = PO
    Low price = PO DOOM!

    Cheap oil plateaued in 2005 and remained flat
    Low surplus made price rise
    High price reduced demand
    but enabled high priced oil
    glut – lower price – drive!

    Notice at no point was peak cheap oil rescinded, conventional has not grown
    notice also that the new lower price is reducing the production of expensive oil

    It is PO with a bow.

  25. ennui2 on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 8:12 am 

    “Clueless idiots are not the best sources of advise.”

    Someone should chart the amount of ad-homs from stubborn doomers who don’t like the daily news. This kind of argumentation is NOT convincing.

    And does Zerohedge ever post anything the least bit optimistic? Of course not. That’s their schtick. So why bother trying to appeal to authority from a perma-doom source? It’s the definition of bias.

  26. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 8:33 am 

    I agree with your assessment of Zerohedge but it is a great source of alternative news to temper the overwhelmingly optimistic mainstream news. I appreciate cornucopian inpute on our board. I have an issue with the attitude of cornucopians that is unyielding. I understand why though because any retreat from their positive view opens a can of worms leading to pessimism. Pessimistic news is overwhelming today for those fair, balanced, and objective. Still I will admit a steady diet of doom is not healthy for a balanced view of reality.

  27. penury on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 9:55 am 

    Overlay the chart of miles driven by a chart showing by trucking companies miles driven. How many “new” cars have been purchased in the U.S. in the last two years and how many have been retired. Then try an average mileage traveled per vehicle. I think you will find that a different story emerges, Then for jollies plot the amount of energy used iin manufact6uring and compare usage for the last two years. Davy sats “pessimistic news is overwhelming today.” just one question Davy, what are you reading”?

  28. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:10 am 

    Pen, I read the same news you do. What news do you read Pen?

  29. onlooker on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:32 am 

    “Pessimistic news is overwhelming today for those fair, balanced, and objective” This is about the MSM not portraying the magnitude of the events unfolding and the course their taking. Does anyone ever hear on MSM about even the slightest hint that all these huge problems can lead to a collapse scenario. NO. So that is the point that the coverage where their is, is disjointed, fragmented as in does not connect the dots and also does not reveal the true menacing aspect of the threats humanity faces.

  30. penury on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:50 am 

    In answer to your question Davy, the list is too long to put here, but what I do read I find is mostly opinion not facts, so the majority of my time is spent fact checking, even here it is a good idea to check facts. What was it Will Rogers said? something about what the most dangerous thing is not what we do not know but, what we know to be true, which is really false.?

  31. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 11:18 am 

    Pen, I think you are referring to Mark Twain:

    http://mobile.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/marktwain109624.html

  32. penury on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 1:02 pm 

    You are correct Davy I am sorry but, it does show that fact checking is important.

  33. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 1:13 pm 

    Pen, what are your intensions? I can’t figure out if you are looking for an opportunity to stab me in the back or you are just engaging in normal conversations. If you are implying something say it.

  34. penury on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 1:21 pm 

    I am sorry Davy but in what manner could I ever stab you in the back? I simply like to obtain information, Rockman and Short are very good at information, others not so much. I am afaide that I do not understand your paranoia.

  35. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 1:24 pm 

    Good boy Pen, just be upfront and honest. Games are for children.

  36. Rodster on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 1:37 pm 

    I think one of the appeal of ZH articles is that people have gotten tired of being lied too. That we are in a recovery, that the global eCONomy is doing just fine and is growing. That the US has near full employment at 5% when there are around 100 million of those unemployed who want to work but can’t because they can’t support themselves and their families with a part time, low wage job. Which if true and if the BLS based their data off of U6 numbers, our unemployment rate would be around 24-26%. BIG DIFFERENCE !

    At some point people start looking for real answers. And that’s what they are starting to do.

  37. makati1 on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 5:24 pm 

    Rodster, real facts are as rare as hen’s teeth these days. And the biggest ones seem to come from the failing empire. Disinformation, misinformation and outright lies are the MSM of America.

    Distraction, red herrings, and pure propaganda predominates the 600 TV channels, and most ‘Made in America’ movies, magazines, etc, in the Us. It will only get worse as the end approaches. Were the real numbers and situation to be made known to the serfs, the pitchforks and shotguns would appear in Washington and heads would roll. Now THAT would be worth watching.

  38. Rodster on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 6:44 pm 

    “Rodster, real facts are as rare as hen’s teeth these days. And the biggest ones seem to come from the failing empire. Disinformation, misinformation and outright lies are the MSM of America.”

    That would be true if it were only the US. Unfortunately everyone does, from the French to the Chinese. All governments spout misinformation. Look no further than the Chinese Government who has claimed double digit growth and it’s becoming evident it was all lies to mask their problems. Some estimates put their real growth between 2-4% annual growth and not the 9-12% they’ve been spouting.

    So yeah, disinformation comes from all sides. Don’t get hoodwinked and take sides.

  39. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 7:17 pm 

    Good luck with presenting reality to the Makster.

  40. GregT on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 8:21 pm 

    Chinese growth was mostly a result of manufacturing consumer goods for the west. Western economies have slowed considerably. It should come as no surprise that Chinese growth would follow suite.

  41. makati1 on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 9:28 pm 

    But Chinese growth is still happening. Not so in the Us where contraction, below zero, is the real numbers.

  42. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:01 pm 

    Makster likes to believe in China’s smoke and mirrors are real. The fact is China is a huge country of contridictions that is flying apart. Where there is growth there is also decay. I suspect even the Chinese at the highest level don’t understand what is happening. That seems clear now that they own:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-27/chinas-plunge-protection-team-now-owns-6-entire-chinese-stock-market

    If they knew what was going on they would never be at this point. Just so you don’t think I am prejudiced the US federal reserve is in the same boat. This is why I have so much doom. The two largest economies are in a slow death spiral.

  43. GregT on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:16 pm 

    “But Chinese growth is still happening.”

    China is looking inward now. Something that was discussed at length by myself and my peers over a decade ago. I just really wish that they would stop buying up North America. This does not end well, for us.

  44. makati1 on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:22 pm 

    Davy, most American’s don’t give a shit about China. Most couldn’t find it on a world map without names and never read the labels that says where the stuff they buy comes from. But they will soon care about the events happening all around them, caused by their own government, trying to block that supplier of most of the things they need and use.

    China is China. Why are you so concerned that they lie about their situation. You do the same thing on here by supporting the terrorist gang in DC’s lies. The Us lies are becoming so blatant that they are even being noticed by the dumbed down and brainwashed Americans.

    At least the Chinese are not invading every country that will not bend it’s knee in servitude. The world is turning away from the Us and toward the civilized countries that still respect sovereignty and rule of law. Something the Us has put in the past as it is putting American freedom and security in the past.

    The Us is a spineless bully that has finally met it’s match and is trying to bluff it’s way out of getting the shit beat out of it.

  45. GregT on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:42 pm 

    China and US clash over South China Sea

    China and the US clashed over the South China Sea at an annual meeting of Asia-Pacific leaders at the weekend, blaming each other for “militarising” the region as tensions over longstanding maritime disputes continue to simmer.

    The US responded last month by sailing a warship within 12 nautical miles of a man-made island in the South China Sea controlled by Beijing, angering China with what Washington called a “freedom of navigation operation”.

    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/59156934-9108-11e5-bd82-c1fb87bef7af.html#axzz3sl1qFGd0

    I wonder what the US would do if Chinese or Russian warships were routinely screwing with them off the coast of the US. I’m guessing much more than what China has done, so far…..

  46. Davy on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 10:56 pm 

    Mak, you are sick with obsession and unable to see the situation clearly. I pity you because such obsessions will rip you apart inside. At your age you are likely a lost cause.

  47. antaris on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 11:15 pm 

    Mak, I here you about Americans not finding things on a map. I have been in the states about 4 months out of my 54 years and whenever looking at the tube there, Canada is always a blank, north the U.S. Border. I would bet a large percent of the population of the U.S. would not be able to name the country to the north of them. Now the rest of the world, who cares.

  48. GregT on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 11:16 pm 

    Mak is correct Davy. Your government is out of control. The really sad part about it? Many Americans, like you, keep blindly supporting them. They don’t care about you either Davy. Anybody that is willing to kill millions of innocent people, doesn’t subscribe to the very principles that your once exceptional country was founded upon. Your continued support, will end very badly for you. Just saying…..

  49. GregT on Fri, 27th Nov 2015 11:24 pm 

    antaris,

    A buddy and myself drove down to the Baja a few years back. We met a couple of gals in LA. They couldn’t understand why we were driving a convertible. They honestly thought that we lived in the arctic, in igloos. Not surprising, as you say, Canada is just that big pink uninhabited zone on US maps, somewhere way up north of Alaska.

  50. Davy on Sat, 28th Nov 2015 6:14 am 

    Greg, I am pointing out a mentally ill individual that is so far over into excessive agenda speak it is sick. I am supporting the truth and turning my back on extremism which people like you justify because for you the ends justify the means.

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