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The Limits of Clean Energy

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Strong winds blow sand at a wind farm in the Coachella Valley on May 6, 2019 in Palm Springs, California. Photo by Mario Tama / Getty Images.

The conversation about climate change has been blazing ahead recently. Propelled by the school climate strikes and social movements like Extinction Rebellion, a number of governments have declared a climate emergency, and progressive political parties are making plans—at last—for a rapid transition to clean energy under the banner of the Green New Deal.

This is a welcome shift, and we need more of it. But a new problem is beginning to emerge that warrants our attention. Some proponents of the Green New Deal seem to believe that it will pave the way to a utopia of “green growth.” Once we trade dirty fossil fuels for clean energy, there’s no reason we can’t keep expanding the economy forever.

This narrative may seem reasonable enough at first glance, but there are good reasons to think twice about it. One of them has to do with clean energy itself.

The phrase “clean energy” normally conjures up happy, innocent images of warm sunshine and fresh wind. But while sunshine and wind is obviously clean, the infrastructure we need to capture it is not. Far from it. The transition to renewables is going to require a dramatic increase in the extraction of metals and rare-earth minerals, with real ecological and social costs.

We need a rapid transition to renewables, yes—but scientists warn that we can’t keep growing energy use at existing rates. No energy is innocent. The only truly clean energy is less energy.

In 2017, the World Bank released a little-noticed report that offered the first comprehensive look at this question. It models the increase in material extraction that would be required to build enough solar and wind utilities to produce an annual output of about 7 terawatts of electricity by 2050. That’s enough to power roughly half of the global economy. By doubling the World Bank figures, we can estimate what it will take to get all the way to zero emissions—and the results are staggering: 34 million metric tons of copper, 40 million tons of lead, 50 million tons of zinc, 162 million tons of aluminum, and no less than 4.8 billion tons of iron.

In some cases, the transition to renewables will require a massive increase over existing levels of extraction. For neodymium—an essential element in wind turbines—extraction will need to rise by nearly 35 percent over current levels. Higher-end estimates reported by the World Bank suggest it could double.

The same is true of silver, which is critical to solar panels. Silver extraction will go up 38 percent and perhaps as much as 105 percent. Demand for indium, also essential to solar technology, will more than triple and could end up skyrocketing by 920 percent.

And then there are all the batteries we’re going to need for power storage. To keep energy flowing when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing will require enormous batteries at the grid level. This means 40 million tons of lithium—an eye-watering 2,700 percent increase over current levels of extraction.

That’s just for electricity. We also need to think about vehicles. This year, a group of leading British scientists submitted a letter to the U.K. Committee on Climate Change outlining their concerns about the ecological impact of electric cars. They agree, of course, that we need to end the sale and use of combustion engines. But they pointed out that unless consumption habits change, replacing the world’s projected fleet of 2 billion vehicles is going to require an explosive increase in mining: Global annual extraction of neodymium and dysprosium will go up by another 70 percent, annual extraction of copper will need to more than double, and cobalt will need to increase by a factor of almost four—all for the entire period from now to 2050.

The problem here is not that we’re going to run out of key minerals—although that may indeed become a concern. The real issue is that this will exacerbate an already existing crisis of overextraction. Mining has become one of the biggest single drivers of deforestation, ecosystem collapse, and biodiversity loss around the world. Ecologists estimate that even at present rates of global material use, we are overshooting sustainable levels by 82 percent.

Take silver, for instance. Mexico is home to the Peñasquito mine, one of the biggest silver mines in the world. Covering nearly 40 square miles, the operation is staggering in its scale: a sprawling open-pit complex ripped into the mountains, flanked by two waste dumps each a mile long, and a tailings dam full of toxic sludge held back by a wall that’s 7 miles around and as high as a 50-story skyscraper. This mine will produce 11,000 tons of silver in 10 years before its reserves, the biggest in the world, are gone.

To transition the global economy to renewables, we need to commission up to 130 more mines on the scale of Peñasquito. Just for silver.

Lithium is another ecological disaster. It takes 500,000 gallons of water to produce a single ton of lithium. Even at present levels of extraction this is causing problems. In the Andes, where most of the world’s lithium is located, mining companies are burning through the water tables and leaving farmers with nothing to irrigate their crops. Many have had no choice but to abandon their land altogether. Meanwhile, chemical leaks from lithium mines have poisoned rivers from Chile to Argentina, Nevada to Tibet, killing off whole freshwater ecosystems. The lithium boom has barely even started, and it’s already a crisis.

And all of this is just to power the existing global economy. Things become even more extreme when we start accounting for growth. As energy demand continues to rise, material extraction for renewables will become all the more aggressive—and the higher the growth rate, the worse it will get.

It’s important to keep in mind that most of the key materials for the energy transition are located in the global south. Parts of Latin America, Africa, and Asia will likely become the target of a new scramble for resources, and some countries may become victims of new forms of colonization. It happened in the 17th and 18th centuries with the hunt for gold and silver from South America. In the 19th century, it was land for cotton and sugar plantations in the Caribbean. In the 20th century, it was diamonds from South Africa, cobalt from Congo, and oil from the Middle East. It’s not difficult to imagine that the scramble for renewables might become similarly violent.

If we don’t take precautions, clean energy firms could become as destructive as fossil fuel companies—buying off politicians, trashing ecosystems, lobbying against environmental regulations, even assassinating community leaders who stand in their way.

Some hope that nuclear power will help us get around these problems—and surely it needs to be part of the mix. But nuclear comes with its own constraints. For one, it takes so long to get new power plants up and running that they can play only a small role in getting us to zero emissions by midcentury. And even in the longer term, nuclear can’t be scaled beyond about 1 terawatt. Absent a miraculous technological breakthrough, the vast majority of our energy will have to come from solar and wind.

None of this is to say that we shouldn’t pursue a rapid transition to renewable energy. We absolutely must and urgently. But if we’re after a greener, more sustainable economy, we need to disabuse ourselves of the fantasy that we can carry on growing energy demand at existing rates.

Of course, we know that poorer countries still need to increase their energy use in order to meet basic needs. But richer countries, fortunately, do not. In high-income nations, the transition to green energy needs to be accompanied by a planned reduction of aggregate energy use.

How might this be accomplished? Given that the majority of our energy is used to power the extraction and production of material goods, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change suggests that high-income nations reduce their material throughput—legislating longer product life spans and rights to repair, banning planned obsolescence and throwaway fashion, shifting from private cars to public transportation, while scaling down socially unnecessary industries and wasteful luxury consumption like the arms trade, SUVs, and McMansions.

Reducing energy demand not only enables a faster transition to renewables, but also ensures that the transition doesn’t trigger new waves of destruction. Any Green New Deal that hopes to be socially just and ecologically coherent needs to have these principles at its heart.



221 Comments on "The Limits of Clean Energy"

  1. DT on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 6:14 pm 

    For anyone that cares JuanP is (Pinkpoodle)
    He is me sometimes too

  2. makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 6:24 pm 

    Over 1,500 CEOs of major corporations have “stepped down” in the last year. Why? Did they know something we didn’t? Was all of this virus fiasco already planned?

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/why-did-hundreds-of-ceos-resign-just-before-the-world-started-going-absolutely-crazy/5707970

    If you think this economic destruction and police state was an “accident” maybe you need to do a rethink?

  3. whoa on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 6:34 pm 

    this is me
    https://postimg.cc/sM8qy0df

  4. JuanP on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 7:10 pm 

    whoa is me

  5. JuanP on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 7:12 pm 

    Mak, global research is a nutter site. When are you going to figure that out. Whenever you reference them you look uninformed.

  6. makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 7:20 pm 

    Davy. no matter who’s name you use, it is obviously you. Your twisted personality is obvious. Anything you disagree with is “fake news” or “a nutter site”. Can’t take the truth? nGet off the internet. LOL

  7. makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 7:48 pm 

    I’m a nutter.
    Nothing wrong with quoting a nutter site, duh?
    Birds of same feathers flock together.
    ‘Nuff said.

  8. whoa on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 8:02 pm 

    President Trump on Saturday was asked about a tweet that he retweeted from a conservative author who wondered if states would enforce social distancing on Muslims during Ramadan.

    whitey supertard president trump is a muzie lover. wake me up when all muzzie amputation is happening starting with muzzie imams

  9. whoa on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 8:04 pm 

    whitey is a muzize lover
    if he amputate muzzies starting with muzie imams then wake me up

    Canadian gunman, 51, who disguised himself as a cop shoots dead at least 13 people, including an officer, during 12 hour rampage before ‘being killed by police’

  10. makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 8:41 pm 

    Makati1 7:40PM is Davy, not me. Obviously, I would NEVER say that. Give it up Davy!

  11. makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 8:42 pm 

    Reality is a bitch, isn’t it Davy. Has the alligators in your swamp started to attack your nanny goat girl friend? LOL

  12. Duncan Idaho on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 9:12 pm 

    “Insomnia as a badge of honor. Proof that you are paying attention.”

    (I sleep very well)

  13. makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 11:40 pm 

    Duncan, I too sleep very well. I have no financial attachments to worry about like stocks, bonds, 401ks, real estate, etc. No large holdings of USDs. No USTs. No job to travel to or lose. Just a relaxing retirement in a country that does not watch everything you do or demand $$$ every time you turn around.

    I have little need for most oily products so I don’t care what happens to the oily industry. <$1 oil or $1,000 oil, not my problem. Fun to watch the gyrations of those who bet their dying career and/or big money, on the liquid stuff. Must be difficult to sleep when your "nest egg" dropped 20% while you slept. I think suicides in the US will double this year. We shall see.

  14. Davy on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 11:50 pm 

    So true Annoy. So true.

  15. DerHundistLos on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 3:14 am 

    Cloggie,

    You misrepresent Bill Maher’s comment, as usual, to fit your agenda. His comment was made in the context of Senate Republicans would always give Trump a pass regardless of legality so what was the point of the exercise.

    “Super Jew” Bill Maher was in fact baptised Catholic and he attended regular church services. His father was Jewish, but Jewish law states the mother determines religion. Try again.

    So far, 34 Trump associates, advisors, and confidants pleaded guilty or were found guilty by juries of a laundry list of high crimes and misdemeanors, including most recently Trump’s longtime confidant, “super Jew” Roger Stone, found guilty by a jury on all seven criminal counts including perjury, falsification of evidence, witness tampering, etc. These felony convictions demonstrate the vast criminal network Trump created.

    For Trump, the rule of law is optional. He’s a cancer on US legitimacy.

    Most presidents’ approval ratings surge during times of crises. That Trump’s favorable/unfavorable ratings remain underwater at 44% / 53% speak to his deep unpopularity.

  16. Abraham van Helsing on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 4:17 am 

    “Super Jew” Bill Maher was in fact baptised Catholic and he attended regular church services. His father was Jewish, but Jewish law states the mother determines religion. Try again.

    OK, I’ll try again…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher

    “Maher was born in New York City. His father, William Aloysius Maher Jr., was a network news editor and radio announcer, and his mother, Julie Maher (née Berman), was a nurse.[2] He was raised in his Irish-American father’s Roman Catholic religion. Until his early teens, he was unaware that his mother, whose family was from Hungary, was Jewish. Owing to his disagreement with the Catholic Church’s doctrine about birth control, Maher’s father stopped taking Maher and his sister to Catholic church services when Maher was thirteen.”

    As you will agree, Maher is by default a 100% jew. No cigar for you.

    I am calling him a “super jew” because of his very prominent media role and his implicit anti-white agenda.

    Roger Stone is catholic, “super catholic” if you will, as he IS a verbal match for Maher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dag6L7tnCEo

    You misrepresent Bill Maher’s comment, as usual, to fit your agenda. His comment was made in the context of Senate Republicans would always give Trump a pass regardless of legality so what was the point of the exercise.

    While I admit I have a pro-white agenda, I did not misrepresent Maher’s “buyers remorse” of impeachment, as Maher correctly observed that the failed impeachment strengthened Trump.

    “For Trump, the rule of law is optional. He’s a cancer on US legitimacy.”

    I don’t give a f* about your legal considerations, as we are in the middle of a fight for white survival, a fight you don’t care about.

    I find Trump a buffoon, a bragger, a philanderer, a lose cannon and what not… BUT… I still support Trump’s presidency as a see him as a launch pad for the European-American space craft to potentially achieve sufficient escape velocity to escape from ZOG.

    I reject him on almost all counts EXCEPT for the only opposition that counts and that is taking the fake news media head on, the core of J-power.

    #FourMoreYears

  17. DerHundistLos on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 5:41 am 

    1/3/2020 Trump learns of virus.

    1/4/20 GOLF

    1/5/20 GOLF

    1/18/20 Cabinet member warns Trump virus is serious.

    1/18/20 GOLF

    1/19/20 First US case of COVID-19

    1/19/20 GOLF

    1/27/20 Chief of Staff Mulvaney holds an intervention to get Trump to pay more attention to virus. He is fired a month later.

    2/1/20 Golf

    2/2/20 Golf

    2/15/20 GOLF

    2/19/20 “I think it’s going to work out just fine.”

    2/28/20 “This is the Democrats new hoax.”

    2/29/20 First US death.

    3/7/20 Democrats work throughout weekend to craft relief bill for citizens without work.

    3/7/20 “No, I’m not concerned in the least bit. I’ve done a great job holding it back.”

    3/7/20 GOLF!

    3/8/20 GOLF!

    3/10/20 “It will go away. Just stay calm and do nothing. It will go away.”

    3/13/20 Trump forced to declare national emergency.

    3/15/20 “I DON’T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AT ALL, NONE.”

    4/1/20 US SUFFERS FROM THE LARGEST VIRAL INFECTED POPULATION IN THE WORLD.

    “I’m going to be working for you. I’m not going to have any time to go play golf as president.”

    –Donald J. Trump, August 2016

    Trump’s golf count
    http://www.trumpgolfcount.com/#services

  18. DerHundistLos on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 5:44 am 

    Regarding your Maher nonsense, I’m glad to know you are paying attention. It means he’s struck a nerve, which is good.

    In terms of whether his mom or dad is Catholic or Jewish, who cares but you.

    There’s good reason why there are ZERO comedians on your nutty side, Cloggie.

  19. Abraham van Helsing on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 6:11 am 

    Regarding your Maher nonsense, I’m glad to know you are paying attention. It means he’s struck a nerve, which is good.

    In terms of whether his mom or dad is Catholic or Jewish, who cares but you.

    Um, it was YOU who brought up Maher’s mum, in your (mistaken) belief that he was not jewish, because you had assumed that his dad was jewish and therefore Billy-boy was not. You scored a fine own-goal there.

    Oh and paying attention is the essence of participating in a discussion board.

    There’s good reason why there are ZERO comedians on your nutty side, Cloggie.

    My “nutty side” has the presidency, where you have Maher’s closet-anti-white “humor”. That’s exactly the way I like to see it. Keep ranting against Trump, for four more years! Because as this witch correctly observes at [10:00]…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPyA5EwLmE8&t=602s

    …the US won’t survive a 2nd Trump presidency, exactly why we in Eurasia want to see a 2nd Trump term happening and why US white nationalists should want that too, since…

    https://documents1940.wordpress.com/2018/05/21/european-america-is-over/

    Keep laughing at your own demise, you fake Che Chevara 2.0 wannabee. No amount of political correct pandering will stop you from becoming the target of the upcoming anti-white social-revolution-of-color in the US(SR). Not that you will participate in defending the old-school US. You have no country. Communists never do. Instead you will continue to fight swarthy tree loggers, errr, make that republican tree loggers, from logging trees.

  20. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 6:35 am 

    Hey, stupid and unaware makato-dumb, that was your best friend juanPee not me. LMFAO. You should be able to tell the difference but you are not very clever. Yea, I steal your ID sometimes when your fucknut friend is doing it to me and you are playing along in his support as you often do.

    makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 7:48 pm
    I’m a nutter.
    Nothing wrong with quoting a nutter site, duh?
    Birds of same feathers flock together.
    ‘Nuff said.

    makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 8:41 pm
    Makati1 7:40PM is Davy, not me. Obviously, I would NEVER say that. Give it up Davy!

    makati1 on Sun, 19th Apr 2020 8:42 pm
    Reality is a bitch, isn’t it Davy. Has the alligators in your swamp started to attack your nanny goat girl friend? LOL

  21. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 6:39 am 

    “Duncan, I too sleep very well. I have no financial attachments to worry about like stocks, bonds, 401ks, real estate, etc. No large holdings of USDs. No USTs. No job to travel to or lose. Just a relaxing retirement in a country that does not watch everything you do or demand $$$ every time you turn around.”

    No healthcare and no money too for dangerous situations that await you in the future. How about when the typhoon season get worse. You have been lucky over the past couple of years with no big one. I think climate change will rear its ugly head for the west coast of the P’s, be patient. LMFAO at how clueless and cocky you are. Somehow you think we are supposed to admire the great one, makato.

  22. Cloggie on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 6:51 am 

    Back on topic…

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/playing-billiard-with-photons/

    “Playing Billiard With Photons”

    Talented researchers at MIT just showed us how to increase the energy efficiency (theoretical upper limit that is) of your run-of-the-mill Walmart silicon solar panel from 29% to 35%.

    Add a layer of hafnium oxynitride and a layer of tetracene of a few atoms thick and you’re good.

    Whoppaa, 16% more electricity from the same surface area, respect!

  23. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:05 am 

    No healthcare and no money too for dangerous situations that await me the future. And the present too come to think of it. How about when the mosquito season get worse. I have been lucky over the past couple of years with even with no money or job. I think I will rear my ugly stupid head for PO.com be patient dumbasses. LMFAO at how clueless and cocky you all are. Somehow I admire the great one, cloggnatzi.

  24. DT on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:08 am 

    hafnium oxynitride and tetracene two more rare earth metals that are mined in third world countries despoiling the landscape. Great cloggie more FF fired industrial civilization for your Clean green fantasies.

  25. Abraham van Helsing on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:34 am 

    hafnium oxynitride and tetracene two more rare earth metals that are mined in third world countries despoiling the landscape. Great cloggie more FF fired industrial civilization for your Clean green fantasies.

    Any idea how little hafnium you need for a layer of a few Angstrom thick?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/24/its-2013-lets-check-those-new-scientist-claims-about-running-out-of-terbium-and-hafnium/#4cf15e875143

    “It’s 2013: Let’s Check Those New Scientist Claims About Running Out Of Terbium And Hafnium”

    Tetracene is not a rare earth but a hydro-carbon without any supply limitations whatsoever:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetracene

  26. DT on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:42 am 

    OH really so you admit that these materials are FF based? HMMMMM…….

  27. JuanP on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:47 am 

    hafnium oxynitride and tetracene two more rare earth metals that are mined in third world countries despoiling the landscape. Great cloggie more FF fired industrial civilization for your Clean green fantasies.

  28. DT on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:49 am 

    No healthcare and no money too for dangerous situations that await me the future. And the present too come to think of it. How about when the mosquito season get worse. I have been lucky over the past couple of years with even with no money or job. I think I will rear my ugly stupid head for PO.com be patient dumbasses. LMFAO at how clueless and cocky you all are. Somehow I admire the great one, juanPee. He is a lunatic and don’t care

  29. JuanP on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 7:50 am 

    OH really so you admit that these materials are FF based? HMMMMM…….

  30. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 8:00 am 

    OH really so you admit all your material is ZH based? HMMMMMM………

  31. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 8:02 am 

    Fake post! I never said that. But Juanpeee is clearly socking and stalking me. I should report him to the police. I am afraid to leave my cabin knowing juanpee is out there, watching my every move.

  32. JuanP on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 8:14 am 

    OH really so you admit all your material is ZH based? HMMMMMM………I admit all my material is nutter based and I use them to troll. If your admit I will.

  33. JuanP on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 8:16 am 

    Fake post! I never said that. But I clearly sock and stalking people with ID theft. I should be reported to the police as mentally unfit. I am afraid to leave my condo nowing I may be jailed or deported.

  34. Abraham van Helsing on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 8:26 am 

    They are moving to offshore wind in Taiwan as well:

    https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/04/20/egco-completes-yunlin-offshore-wind-farm-buy-in/

    Project driven by Germany.

  35. Duncan Idaho on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:30 am 

    Falling on his gold-plated dagger, Mnuchin gets the prize for Trump bootlicker of the week:

    https://digbysblog.net/2020/04/mnuchin-is-a-very-good-boy/

    The Fat Boy has collected a group of psychopaths that can really lick boots, among other things.

  36. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:45 am 

    So true Idaho. So true.

  37. JuanP on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:49 am 

    Idaho. I don’t like liberals so not fucking So true.

  38. DT on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:51 am 

    Good job Juan. I like when you show you have balls. Sometime you act like you have a cunt with the pink shit avatar

  39. uncooked chicken on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:55 am 

    why supertards don’t like the taste of (((supremetard)))’s ck
    but love to chomp on muzzie ck? i want to try muzzie cok so please teach me

    whitey supertard scientific supremacist “thunderf00t” went on self quarantine and i said it smellz. Not sure what it smells like

    uncooked chicken with muzie ck flavor

  40. REAL Green on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:57 am 

    We agrees with the inbred Missouri dumbass fer a change.

    So true Idaho. So true.

  41. uncooked chicken on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 9:59 am 

    if you eat uncooked chicken u go into self quarantine outside

    whitey supertard scientific supremacist “thunderf00t” is a muzzie lover and he went into self quarantine. i said it smellz

    it smells like uncooked chicken with muzzie ck flavor. not my thing but i’d like to try it.

  42. Duncan Idaho on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 10:32 am 

    At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home & our being, drive a spear into the land, & say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government & corporations, “thus far & no farther.”
    — Edward Abbey

  43. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 10:35 am 

    Uncooked chickins are fine to eat as long as there not dead.

  44. uncooked chickn on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 10:41 am 

    i’m not saying raw chicken
    i’m saying half cooked chickn

    try it and you will clear the room very quickly

  45. JuanP on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 10:50 am 

    Unclean cocks are fine to suck and I partake regularly

  46. REAL Green on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 11:08 am 

    So true Davy. So true.

  47. Cloggie on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 11:57 am 

    Hannover Messe 2019 – Hydrogen and Fuel Cells.

    Presentation: how to prepare for 40 GW electrolyzer hydrogen demand in 2030?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIRBnapJOj0

    Here many other hydrogen & fuel cell video from that event, state of the art in the world:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/hannover-messe-2019-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

  48. Davy on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 12:30 pm 

    Yeap REAL Green. Unclean cocks are the best.
    They makes us feel REAL dirty.

  49. DT on Mon, 20th Apr 2020 12:32 pm 

    Yeap REAL Green. Unclean cocks are the best.
    They makes us feel REAL dirty.

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