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Page added on February 21, 2014
Will Ukraine’s Protests Swallow Putin, Too?
Two events that took place on Friday highlighted the enormous difference between Ukraine and Russia, two large, neighboring, corrupt, misgoverned East European nations whose peoples understand each other’s language and share cultural references.
In Kiev, President Viktor Yanukovych conceded defeat at the hands of protesters who had held the center of the capital for three months. After all-night talks with parliamentary opposition leaders, EU and Russian mediators, he said he would call an early presidential election in December 2014, but before that, the constitution would be amended to curb the president’s powers and move toward a parliamentary republic. At the same time in Moscow, a court found eight people guilty of “taking part in mass disturbances” and violence against riot police in May 2012. The verdict, which carries prison sentences of as long as six years, sealed Russian President Vladimir Putin’s victory over the protesters who accused him and his allies of rigging elections in 2011 and 2012.
Russians, both Putin supporters and opponents, will now grapple with the question of how relevant the Ukrainian example is to them.
Putin’s and Yanukovych’s regimes have a lot in common. Both presidents run their countries through party machines that have fostered adverse selection among local officials. In both countries, presidential cronies have grown fat on state contracts. In both countries, government officials live in ostentatious luxury that sharply contrasts with most people’s modest existence. Holding on to private property in both countries is a matter of staying on good terms with bureaucrats, courts are a travesty and cops are to be feared, not called on for help. What is different is the level of resistance to all this in the two societies.
While Muscovites’ failed “snow revolution” of two years ago was a chain of discrete peaceful rallies with only a few minor episodes of violence and little support in the Russian hinterland, Ukraine’s protests swelled and spread geographically as the authorities attempted to put them down. The core of the protesters, backed by reinforcements from fiercely nationalist western Ukraine, never left Independence Square in central Kiev, erecting a competently governed tent city and holding it against repeated riot police attacks. They also turned out to be willing to take up crude weapons like baseball bats and shovel handles, and then handguns and hunting rifles, to defend themselves and, at times, counterattack. They seized government buildings and braved tear gas, water cannons in sub-freezing weather and, finally, bullets that killed dozens of people in their midst.
Because the Russian protest, with its small base in Moscow’s educated, well-to-do middle class, was timid and gentle, while the Ukrainian one was forceful and explosive, they have yielded strikingly different results. Putin was allowed to strengthen his hold on power with repressive laws and ubiquitous, in-your-face propaganda, and the eight protesters’ sentences now seem part of the natural order of things. Yanukovych was repeatedly forced to retreat and make concessions, and even his promises of an early election and constitutional reform are not enough for many protesters. They now want him to step down immediately and then to stand trial for the bloodshed.
Though the Ukrainian example is uplifting, and a source of envy to many of those who rallied in vain against Putin two years ago, it may still turn into a powerful deterrent to Russian protest. A lot depends on how Ukrainians handle the aftermath of their apparent victory. Various opposition factions, which have little in common ideologically apart from their hatred of Yanukovych, will have to resist the temptation to seek revenge. That could only lead to more chaos in a country that came so close to civil war. Besides, cruel reprisals against Yanukovych and his cronies, which many Ukrainians crave, even blocking roads to airports to prevent officials’ families from fleeing the country, would make it that much more difficult for any Russian protesters to succeed: Their enemies will fight more fiercely if they don’t expect any quarter in case of defeat.
New Ukrainian leaders — probably still the heads of the parliamentary opposition, Vitali Klitschko, Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Oleh Tyahnybok — will need to achieve a working truce with politicians in the Russia-leaning southeastern part of the country and start the painstaking work of building government institutions from scratch and consolidating a parliamentary system that will make another dictatorship impossible.
They will have to do it in an abysmal economic situation. Standard & Poor’s has just downgraded Ukraine’s debt to CCC, two levels above default grade. Inability to service public debt is a real possibility for a country that hasn’t seen steady economic growth for two years and, in 2013, had a current account deficit of 8.9 percent of gross domestic product. Any new government will have to devalue the currency and drastically cut public spending, which ballooned to 49.5 percent of GDP under Yanukovych. Keeping public support throughout all this will be more difficult than ever: Ordinary people, still flush with their victory over the regime, don’t feel they owe politicians any thanks for what they have achieved at a bloody price.
At every step, Putin’s propaganda machine will try to seize on the new Ukrainian leaders’ smallest mistakes and blow them up for Russians to see that they shouldn’t go down the same path. While he still has the benefit of an economy buffered by vast oil resources, Putin will watch with anxiety how Ukrainians manage. He will need all his considerable cunning to make sure his own people don’t follow in their footsteps once the economy falters.
29 Comments on "Will Ukraine’s Protests Swallow Putin, Too?"
MSN fanboy on Fri, 21st Feb 2014 8:02 pm
And?
Certain countries need dictatorships to keep everything in place. At least with a dictator you know who your enemy is and how you suppose they act.
Democracy on the other hand is far more vague, it has short-term sound bites and tells you what (the apparent majority) think. You do not know the true leader in a democracy (presidency is a figurehead) and it is far more ever subtler in its corruption. Who runs America, Government or Corporations?
Trick question, they’ve merged.
Arthur on Fri, 21st Feb 2014 10:00 pm
The only interest Wladimir Putin has, is that IF the Ukraine falls apart, the western part of the Ukraine, with possible/likely capital Lemberg/(“Lvov”) will not become part of NATO and that US missiles stay away from Russia’s doorstep, although it is unlikely that Germany would cooperate with that. There is reason to believe that actually Russia would not mind if the Ukraine would fall apart, so that it could take back the Russian, that is eastern part of the Ukraine, with all the industry, as well as the main prize: the Crimea and leave the dirt poor western Ukraine for the EU to manage. The problem is, the Ukraine is not Belgium or the UK or Czechoslovakia, with clear cut regional borders. Yugoslavia or Syria, that would be a more appropriate comparison and a separation would by messy and bloody, possibly prompting Russian military intervention. Just like the Serbs considered Kosovo as the cradle of their nation, so do the Russians consider Kiev-Rus as the foundation of their state:
[wiki kievan rus]
The uprising does have a grassroots origin, comparable to the Arab Spring: the Ukrainians want a better, western life style, but the US lead West was quick to smell it’s chance to weaken Russia and they foolishly chose side from the beginning, emboldening the opposition in an attempt to draw the Ukraine into Europe, read: away from Russia. The EU is in fact less keen on adopting another broke aspiring memberstate, than the US is, but hey, as la Nuland said: “F*** the EU”.
One thing is clear: the rapprochement between Europe and the Slavic world has begun and is irreversible and is in fact cornerstone of the Russian grand strategy:
http://rt.com/politics/official-word/putin-russia-changing-world-263/
Russia is interested in becoming European, but is not interested in becoming part of the American NWO and neither is China. But all that Russia and China need to do is wait for the opportunity to “de-Americanize the world”, as a Chinese state newspaper recently called it. When that will happen and the US empire will be dismantled, because it runs out of funds and energy, nothing will block the coming alliance between Europe and Russia. The developments in the Ukraine are a step in that process, the construction of many pipelines from Russia to Europe is another.
Arthur on Fri, 21st Feb 2014 10:05 pm
Putin’s own words: Russia is an inalienable and organic part of Greater Europe and European civilization. Our citizens think of themselves as Europeans. We are by no means indifferent to developments in united Europe.
That is why Russia proposes moving towards the creation of a common economic and human space from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean – a community referred by Russian experts to as “the Union of Europe,” which will strengthen Russia’s potential and position in its economic pivot toward the “new Asia.”
dissident on Fri, 21st Feb 2014 10:46 pm
Gotta love that Putin the tyrant meme. Little details like polls showing he has 68% approval and gets over 50% of the vote in the first round with no opponent breaking through 30%, are just so irrelevant to a good narrative. Much like leaving out the word “children” when describing the recent “anti-gay” law in Russia. The western media and the pundits it parades are a joke.
In 1991 Russians were in love with the west. In 2014 they could give a rat’s ass what the west thinks. The west is not interested in objective analysis of Russia. The west just wants a the cold war to go on.
J-Gav on Fri, 21st Feb 2014 10:53 pm
MSN – A pertinent comment. To answer your question though, it is without a doubt corporations and the military (along with the pusillanimous complicity of the press-titutes).
As for the article, I don’t expect events in Ukraine to bring down Putin. Back in the Middle Ages (roughly, 10th to 13th C), Kievan Rus’ was the center of the first federation of Slavic peoples. To think that Russians would turn against Putin for defending the idea that Ukraine is part of the Russian sphere of influence is completely silly. Without Russian economic support (energy!) Ukraine is nada. But, as I’ve mentioned before here, Ukraine is actually two countries after having been carved up so many times. It’s a rare case where, IMHO, it might make sense to divide it in two, allowing the westerners to link up more strongly with Europe and the easterners to meld into the Russian fold. I don’t see that happening though. Where’s Kiev? Sort of in the middle … Who gets that prize? Looks like a prime candidate for civil war to me, already being stirred up by US manipulation by the way …
DC on Fri, 21st Feb 2014 11:00 pm
The morons @bloomberg can dream on. Putin is not a lying hypocrite like the puppet Obomber. Rather, he a skilled politician and statesman, he knows what he has to do, and when the time is right, I trust he will do the right thing. Or the best he can given the hand he’s been dealt.
So bloomberg can keep living in their make-believe world where Putin will be swept away and replaced by a compliant western stooge over this. Yanukovych is a weak leader-Putin, is not. He is not about to allow any part of Ukraine to become a forward launch pad for so-called ‘missile interceptors’ and other NATO(read US) hardware aimed at Russia. The US made the mistake of trying that in Georgia with the help of the traitorous Mikhail Sashkashvili. Look what got the US. The US thought it had a willing and compliant satrp on Russias southern border in the bag-hah. The US has been creeping steadily eastward towards Moscow for years-maybe its time to throw them back a little?
Arthur,you keep saying that the Europe will be free someday of amerikas toxic influence.Its sounds great,and I hope you are right about Arthur, but TBH, I dont see it happening on any sort of timetable. The EU is right now, a wholly owned subsidiary of the US empire(inc). France, formerly a strong proponent of European independence, is now a willing partner in amerikan imperialism. I cant share your optimism. If the EU intends to declare their independence from the US and have normal and positive relations with all nations, Russia, the arab world etc, they better get on it pretty soon….
Yeti on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 2:18 am
“with the help of the traitorous Mikhail Sashkashvili”.
Thought for a second you were from Venezuela, but now….
As an American, I wonder at how great Russia could be….if not for it’s near perpetual bad governance.
There is a vast amount of grey area between Putin and “a compliant western stooge”. How great it would be for Russia (and the world) if the people could finally dip a toe into that grey.
Makati1 on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 3:02 am
Anyone who beleives that this is not the work of the uS Empire, put your hand up. Anyone who beleives that Venezuela’s problems are not the work of the US Empire, put your other hand up. If you think…
90% of the world’s troubles and wars since 1939 have been because the US meddled to keep the dollar in power.
The Banking Cartel is in charge of the West, not any leader/country. That is why the ‘need’ to get hold of the Central Banks of the few still independent countries, like Iran. Remember Libya. The country that wanted to start an African currency based on gold and not fiat? What happened there?
No, Putin is in power and will stay there. The Ukraine is just part of the events we will watch this year.
DC, I agree.
Yeti on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 3:20 am
“wars since 1939”? And who decided to share in the spoils of invading Poland back in the day?
Was a great idea, until it wasn’t.
You can thank J.S., not the U.S. for that world changing blunder.
Arthur on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 8:16 am
DC, nobody will challenge, confront, defeat the US directly. In the end the US will defeat itself due to a glaring mismatch between US ambitions of global empire and the increasing lack of means to realize that goal. Rising nationalism in Europe, rising islamic fundamentalism, rerising Russia, rising China and, extremely important, the rising influence of the internet, circumventing the MSM, as well as rising resistance from within the US itself against the NWO, as well as changing demographics in the US, all work against the aspirations of the zionist dominated PTB in Washington. The US empire is a house of cards and is most vulnerable from a financial point of view (questionable continued acceptance of the dollar as reserve currency).
In history there is a recurring pattern of ca. 10 years time between the first signs of a coming revolution and the real thing:
The 1917 Bolshevik revolution was preceded by the one of 1905.
The 1989 revolution in Eastern Europe was preceded by the Polish uprising of 1980 in Gdansk.
The Orange revolution in Kiev in 2004 initiated the real thing now in 2014.
A few years ago there was the nationwide uprising in the US, called OWS. And there is organized protest on the right as well (TP). Yesterday I read that 30% of US citizens under 35 still live with their parents. Something is brewing. There was the Ron Paul movement, without a real chance of success, but still significant.
About Europe… Germany can’t afford to openly challenge the US (Natzis!!), but it plays a very moderating role nevertheless and does not contribute (significantly) to the imperial adventures of The Lobby. In 2003 there was even outright French-German rebellion against the Iraq safari, greatly increasing Russian confidence in the future of Greater European cooperation. The deep state documents of the EU reveal that no long term subserviance to Washington is foreseen. In France there was the shortlived Jewish intermezzo of Sarko and Bernard Levy, who promptly abandoned the consistent anti-Anglo policies of the Gaullists before them. Now we have Hollande, a not very impressive if not comical figure. Nevertheless, last week, he followed the proposal of Merkel to setup a European internet, blocking any inter-European traffic from crossing European frontiers, so bye-bye NSA/MI5.
Davy, Hermann, MO on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 10:29 am
Man, (SOME OF) you guys need to buy new text books at the university store. All this “de-Americanism”, lets defeat the US directly, US global empire, China Russia partnership, US NWO, and Zionist PTB in Washington. You guys have been hoodwinked by your own ideology of fear and hate. You wallow in your desire to fix blame on someone and something. Your claim of new alliances of China and Russia against America sound like someone playing the board game “Risk”. In the meantime the real reality has past right over your head. The real reasons for a collapsing complex global society are not seen by you. You see the new normal with a polarization of a cold war mentality 20 years ago. You are just as bad as those at the top who are practicing the corruption, manipulation, and deception. We are lucky you are not in power because if your fingers were on the wmd’s we would all be finished soon. Let’s us not deny the sins of the American Empire. They are plain to see. Yet, lets us mature as a people and realize this blame game is not a solution. There is no way you can get a handle on the predicament we face with the old thinking. The old mentality is what got us into this in the first place.
Arthur on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 11:13 am
lets defeat the US directly
Strawman, nobody says that.
China Russia partnership
Is called SCO and is a fact of life, founded in 1996, but really got traction in 2005, after the US funded Orange revolution in the Ukraine.
You guys have been hoodwinked by your own ideology of fear and hate.
Why should we love what the US lead West has done in Iraq, Libya, Syria and now the Ukraine?
Your claim of new alliances of China and Russia against America sound like someone playing the board game “Risk”
Yep, that’s geopolitics for you. Always has been.
The real reasons for a collapsing complex global society are not seen by you.
The actions of the US PTB are a result of the ‘unipolar moment’ and subsequent Zionist written Program for the New American Century as well as Clean Break (–> regime change in many countries of the ME), after the collapse of the USSR. They don’t even try to hide it anymore that they want a global empire (‘exceptionalism’). Peak-oil plays a secondary role in US leading circles or rather a subject that is ignored/denied by the elite.
You see the new normal with a polarization of a cold war mentality 20 years ago.
Nobody here wants a cold war, let alone plan for the next war. But that does not mean that we should close our eyes for what has happened in Iraq, Libya, Syria and now the Ukraine. Constant meddling and regime change policies, if there is a chance that after regime change the country ends up in the western camp. And if hundreds of thousand need to be killed, no problem.
We are on the brink of the multi-polar, post-imperialist era. The time of the European, Soviet and American empires is almost over. Zionist run Washington wants the world under their control, the rest of the world is not interested. In this respect the Israel/US/UK-coalition has now maneuvered itself in a hopelessly isolated position. In the end the US-population will draw the conclusion itself and voluntarily will end the American Era itself, without war, calling all the troops home. There are enough American Lech Walesa’s waiting in the wings to take over after the defeat of the US imperialist will be clear for all to see (Alex Jones, Jesse Ventura, Richard Snowden, too mention a few). And that turning point will be initiated by a financial meltdown/dollar losing reserve currency status.
Davy, Hermann, MO on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 11:18 am
Damn @Arthur I think I touched a nerve of insecurity or otherwise why make a fuss?
Arthur on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 11:26 am
You want to abandon the discussion and try to discredit the arguer instead?
Looks like you are running out of arguments.
Arthur on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 11:30 am
Meanwhile the police in Kiev has changed sides and no longer supports the regime:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/krise-in-kiew-ukrainischer-parlamentschef-rybak-tritt-zurueck-a-954913.html
Very significant development. Yanukowitsch has vanished towards his home base in Charkow. Kiev now belongs to the protesters. Meanwhile European economists plead to pump billions into the Ukraine:
spiegel . de/wirtschaft/soziales/wirtschaft-in-der-ukraine-staatsbankrott-droht-a-954937.html
Now it remains to be seen how the Eastern Ukraine and it’s oligarchs are going to respond.
Putin will have a busy agenda, once Sotchi is over.
Arthur on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 12:27 pm
Parliament in Kiev decided to release Timoshenko. Not one iot less corrupt than Yanukowitsch, but it looks that the 2004 gang is back in place. Soros and Washington happy. The bills no doubt are going to be paid by the EU.
The EU just got potentially enlarged by yet another 45 million –> 550 million.
It also means that power is slipping away from Yanukowitsch and that the EU brokered accord from yesterday is already null and void.
Makati1 on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 1:38 pm
Arthur, don’t be so sure you know all the answers … lol. Russia is NOT going to let the US get closer to their borders without a war starting somewhere.
I still think Russia will be forced into a nuclear exchange with the US before this is all over. The “Cold War’ never ended. It just faded into the background for a while. I hope I am wrong, but…
Davy, Hermann, MO on Sat, 22nd Feb 2014 2:01 pm
Makati – That will happen after China invades the Philippians and enslaves the local population. They are already at your doorstep.
baptised on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 12:35 am
What would happen if you threw a large rock or gas bomb at a cop in the USA????
DC on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 1:06 am
Aye that Arthur, the ‘west’ already has their favorite Ukrainian sock puppet making speeches and grandiose claims about the neo-liberal paradise to come. In fact, shes egging the protesters on, telling them to stay put. Clearly she doesn’t feel secure enough to have her motley collection of Neo-nazis, ultra-nationalists,Faux-NGO ‘activists’ paid thugs, with the odd ‘true-believer’ tossed in for good measure, go home just yet.
And what a surprise, Tymoshenko is a *jew*. Bet none of you saw that coming did you? My national press, which BTW, only regurgitates ‘stories’ mainly from AP(amerikan propaganda) here even blamed her ‘back’ problems, which were an issue even before her well-deserved prison stint ever began. But the wheel-chair makes for nice media friendly optics I guess.
The whole timing of this fake ‘revolution’ could be more fortuitous. With Sochi winding down, the Russian gov’ts attention would be focused on that. The US likely calculated any strong response by Russia to help re-assert Ukraine’s independence is not something Russia would be willing to undertake with Sochi still on. Put another way, they wanted to use this time to do a quick and dirty regime change on Russia’s doorstep while attention was diverted elsewhere. Well see if they manage to pull it off I guess. I am sure once Sochi is over and the US resumes its terrorism and regime change full bore again, Syria, Venululua, etc, President Putin will have a lot to think about. I wouldn’t write Ukraine off just yet however, Princess Leia is hardly secure yet no matter how much her neo-nazis brownshirts may think.
Davy, Hermann, MO on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 1:46 am
I see the blame and complain team is at it again. The Anti-AmeriKan is drumming up wild stories in that wild and crazy mind. They almost sound like hallucinations. I wonder if he spent time in North Korea studying in the Ministry of Propaganda. Many of his shrills and parrot squawks sound like text book NK propaganda spew
Makati1 on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 3:14 am
Davy, the American flag is torn and dirtied by it abuse over the last 100 years. The Empire’s days are numbered.
As for the Philippines, many of the corporations here are owned by families of Chinese decent. They are everywhere. Nothing is going to change. The Philippines is not a threat to anyone. We have no way to hurt China so we will be ignored unless the US causes the islands to become a proxy war with China. Even then, this is not WW2. We are about 20 minutes form mainland China as missiles fly. And I do NOT expect the US to provide any protection. They are broke in more ways than just monetarily.
So, even if everything from China to New Zealand becomes colonies of China, I will do what is necessary to live here. It will be no worse than being in the States.
Arthur on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 8:41 am
Russia just cancelled it’s aid to the Ukraine, so now Europe can try to solve the mess it foolishly helped creating. Europe just got ‘enriched’ with four new Greece’s in the overdrive (a Greek still makes three times what a Ukrainian makes). The Western Europeans, already complaining about the large influx of Poles and soon Romanians and Bulgarians, can expect the Mother of all Invasions once the Ukraine will be allowed into the EU on the fast track. Where every year tens of thousands of Africans undertake the dangerous journey to Lampedusa to reach the ‘European Nirvana’, here is an entire nation of 45 million that achieved the same goal by merely protesting for a few weeks. This could set an example, Minsk/Bela-Russia anyone? The consequence will be that support for the EU in western Europe will erode further. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Saakashvili, Timoshenko, has occupied ‘EuroMaidan’ square. She is one of the richest women in the country and did not get that wealth from her regular salary as a politician. In reality she got rich from her political activities in the energy business.
Wonder how Putin is going to react on Monday-morning, when the (for Russia very successful) Olympics will be over. Yesterday on the Dutch radio I heard that the very Russian Crimea is not willing to accept the new constitution from Kiev. However, a split-up of the country is not a done deal. Quit a few Russian speaking Eastern Ukrainians would love to see their standard of living raised to Polish levels. If that is going to materialize is a different thing altogether.
Arthur on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 9:44 am
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-crisis-eu-washington-plan-282/
Good story in RussiaToday by the Californian Peter Lavelle. The guys in charge in the streets of Kiev now, are ultra-nationalists, see:
[wiki Right Sector]
These are the typical Ukrainian bodyguard types, straight from a Hollywood film set, making yet another concentration camp movie with Ukrainian guards. To complicate matters: these people are pro-Ukraine, pro-Russia and anti-EU.
At the moment, nobody is in charge. There is no consensus about anything, except that nobody will oppose western money flowing into the country:
It is the economy, stupid!
While the EU and the US State Department have been ceaselessly recruiting proxies on the ground and media spinning Ukraine, this former Soviet republic faces economic collapse and financial default. The economic situation in Ukraine is grave. Russia has decided to step away from its gesture of economic aid in the amount of $15 billion. When it was promised, there was a legitimately elected government in Kiev. Now the EU plan up-ends the political playing field. Will Victoria Nuland and Brussels bail out the rioters on the streets of Kiev? The good folks of eastern and southern Ukraine would like to know.
Washington and Brussels have long wanted and planned regime change in Ukraine. This just might happen. But both should be wary of wishes coming true. The end result may be a failed western Ukraine state on its border
Amen to that.
Arthur on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 11:34 am
http://www.globalresearch.ca/is-ukraine-drifting-toward-civil-war-and-great-power-confrontation/5369900
Paul Craig Roberts on the situation and confirms what RT wrote:
Many of the protesters are just the unemployed collecting easy money. It is the witless idealistic types that are destroying the independence of their country. Victoria Nuland, the American neoconservative [*] Assistant Secretary of State, whose agenda is US world hegemony, told the Ukrainians what was in store for them last December 13, but the protesters were too delusional to hear.
In an eight minute, 46 second speech at the National Press Club sponsored by the US-Ukraine Foundation, Chevron, and Ukraine-in-Washington Lobby Group, Nuland boasted that Washington has spent $5 billion to foment agitation to bring Ukraine into the EU.
Nuland speech Dec 13: youtube . com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU
[*] codeword for neo-Trotskyite world revolution plotting, ‘let’s wreck another country today’, youknowwho. Or as fellow neocon youknowwho Michael Ledeen so subtly formulated it in 2002, while preparing the ground for the impending Iraq slaughter, after successfully tele-crashing planes into buildings: “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business”.
Davy, Hermann, MO on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 1:15 pm
@Arthur
Balance please my friend. Do you think you have all the subtleties of what is going on in the Ukraine? It is nice to know this side of the story. Yet, it is the anti-American anti-western propaganda point of view. I would be nice to have balance. I would respect your political expertise more with balance. I see an overwhelming amount of anti-American propaganda here. I do not deny the crimes and sins but I feel this site is a good site because of balanced dialogue.
Arthur on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 1:35 pm
Davy, what’s keeping you from providing us with your no doubt very balanced view?
All ears, the microphone is yours.
Davy, Hermann, MO on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 2:08 pm
@Arthur these things are not my expertise and I honestly think you are well versed here. I realize you may not care what I think as an American but, I would enjoy your insight more if the tone was not so severe on “all” Americans. It is a big country
Arthur on Sun, 23rd Feb 2014 3:57 pm
Davy, forget about the idea of ‘anti-Americanism’. The struggle is about globalism/NWO versus the survival of European civilization in Europe and north-America. I have said repeatedly that I advocate a continuation of the transatlantic bond after the end of globalism/NWO. In Europe there generally is no ‘hate’ for America, and neither with me. See it as an older brother coming to the rescue of his younger brother.