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Page added on August 31, 2017
There is no Planet B
Yeah, the earth is warming. If things don’t change we’ll be like Venus – uninhabitable. So, what are we going to do about it?
There’s certainly no leadership coming from President Trump, or EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt.
Is it all hopeless?
Actually not.
Anchorage Mayor Ethan Berkowitz is actually upbeat. So is former Lt. Gov. Fran Ulmer, who still chairs – unbelievable in the Trump era – the federal Arctic Science Policy Commission.
Berkowitz recently put Anchorage on the list of about 300 U.S. cities supporting the Paris climate accord, basically giving Trump the finger. Trump, a climate change denier, took the U.S. out of the Paris agreement.
Berkowitz and Ulmer say there are thousands of things – little things – that are starting to happen mostly at the local, grass-roots level. People can strive to use less fossil fuel and more renewable energy like solar, reduce food waste and eat more of a plant-based diet. Collectively these things can add up.
Some of this came out Thursday night, Aug. 24, when Ulmer chaired a panel of citizen climate activists at Anchorage’s downtown Side Street Espresso. Berkowitz was there to open the event.
Sandy Harper, recently retired from Cyrano’s, the popular Anchorage playhouse, has become a climate activist and organized the event. Travis Rector, University of Alaska Anchorage professor of physics and astronomy; commercial fisherman George Donart, Alaska Native leader Larry Merculieff, ecologist Ceral Smith, and journalist Yereth Rosen were on the panel.
“I don’t think we should be operating without facts, and the facts on climate change should make a difference,” Berkowitz said. “Change starts at the local level. That’s where ideas are generated.”
Donart is part of the Citizen Climate Lobby, a national effort, and has been working the halls of Congress with fellow citizen climate lobbyists from around the country. Surprisingly, Donart sees some progress even in a Republican-led Congress. While it’s easy to be cynical about Congress, grassroots citizen lobbying can actually work.
One result, after long and patient persuasion, is a “Bipartisan Climate Caucus” in the U.S. House of Representatives that now has 52 members. This is up from 16 members of the House since the start of the current Congress last January, Donart said.
The caucus was actually formed in the last Congress and was up to 20 members in 2016 but five were lost due to election defeats or member not seeking reelection. In any event, increasing the caucus to 52 in eight months is an achievement. While not a majority in the house, “this is still large enough to block bad legislation,” Donart told the forum.
What’s also surprising is that the caucus is equally divided between Republicans and Democrats. One of the rules, in fact, is that a new congressman or congresswoman joining most also bring in a new member from the other party, Donart said.
Rector, speaking as a scientist, described the effects that the increasing level of atmospheric carbon dioxide is having in causing increasing acidification in the oceans as carbon interacts with water and forms carbonic acid. This injures shellfish, and Rector said Alaska’s lucrative commercial crab fisheries will be in trouble within a decade or two.
The effects on salmon are still unknown but they can’t be good, he said.
“Right now, the oceans are still our friend because they are absorbing the bulk of the C02 being released, so that less of it goes into the atmosphere,” which would accelerate the greenhouse heat-trapping effect.
“But as the earth’s temperature rises and the oceans warm, they will begin releasing CO2,” increasing what is going into the atmosphere, Rector said. The atmosphere is already at 400 ppm CO2, up from the historic levels of 270 to 280 ppm.
If status quo prevails and 1,000 ppm is reached the effects will be catastrophic. “Even at points below that, bad things will happen,” he said. The rise of sea levels is already happening and the more conservative modeling predicts at 3-foot rise by the end of this century. If the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets are destabilized, the rise will be greater.
“Miami could be history,” he said. “Most of the world’s population lives in cities and cities are usually on the coast, so the effects will be very disruptive.”
The Earth’s climate has always changed, but the difference now is the speed of change. “What has happened in the last 50 years formerly took 100,000 years,” Rector said. “It’s like a person who has experienced natural weight variation over his or her life and there’s a sudden 30-pound weight gain in two years. If this were a friend, wouldn’t you talk about it? Wouldn’t you be alarmed?”
Ulmer described her personal observations on a trip to the North Pole earlier this summer aboard a Russian icebreaker.
“I stood on the ice at 90 degrees north, and it was raining. Imagine, rain at the North Pole,” she said.
“Also, we didn’t see any thick multi-year ice,” she added — only thinner and newer first-year ice. This is a huge change in the Arctic ecosystem and the creatures that depend on it. Actually, we all depend on the Arctic. The Arctic acts like a huge refrigerator for the world, helping regulate climate and weather,” she said.
Merculieff, who is from the Pribilof Islands, recounts observations from Native elders who have observed unusual lesions on salmon as well as parasites that they believe is caused by low water levels in spawning stream, exposing salmon to gravel.
“We are also seeing a proliferation of beavers including in the Arctic,” Merculieff told the panel. Low water is sign of a smaller winter snowpack and lower spring runoff. Changing levels of water also affect mosquito breeding, which may be a relief for humans in places where mosquito levels are down, but it affects bird populations.
George Donart, who is a commercial fisherman, said that while scientists are unsure of the cause of the 2016 collapse of pink salmon runs across much of coastal Alaska, he believes it had something to do with unusually warm water temperatures in the Gulf of Alaska.
Rector said the climate change problem “seems so overwhelming that it has left people paralyzed, feeling fear and shame,” that so little can seemingly be done. “Actually, we can do things,” he said. “We have the ability. We’ve done it before with DDT and the ozone problem,” where nations worked collectively to tackle global environmental problems.
He acknowledges that climate change is much bigger, but “we can start to fix it. We shouldn’t let people feel paralyzed.” At the same time, as much as people blame Republicans for playing out a political agenda with climate change, it’s possible that Democrats do the same thing.
For example, Merculieff said he was once recruited by people working with former vice president Al Gore to join an advocacy effort. “I asked if I could include Native elders, and I was told no, that I had to follow Al Gore’s script,” Merculieff told the panel.
Merculieff declined to join Gore, but said he actually has a lot of hope for the future. “Twenty-year-olds get this,” he said. The issue is complex and, includes not just the climate crisis but related problems like deforestation, but people are starting to do things, Merculieff said.
He also said people should have a vision of what they want the world to be.
“It’s important not just to react, to want to stop something, but to have a vision of how to guide what you do,” he said.
However, there can be complex side-effects that must be remembered, Merculieff said. For example, more use of electric vehicles will increase the numbers of dead batteries to be disposed of, which can create toxic pollution if that isn’t done properly, and monitored.
Ulmer said it’s of fundamental importance to change how energy is used. She was asked what encouraged electric utilities in Texas, a major oil state, to begin using large amounts of renewable wind power. Credit for that is sometimes given former Gov. George W. Bush.
Ulmer said market forces actually had a lot to do with it. Renewable power is becoming less expensive across the world and in Texas it became a simple business decision. Economics will drive much of the shift away from reliance on fossil fuels, she said.
Major corporations see these trends and are already including assumptions for climate change in corporate planning, including using an internal price for carbon emissions to see how financial performance will be affected is policies like cap-and-trade for carbon dioxide emissions, or a carbon tax, were imposed.
Despite the current political environment, many large companies, including international oil and gas companies like Shell and BP, believe renewable solutions are inevitable in the long run.
“The business case is what will really drive this. If we could start with a very modest carbon fee that gradually increases,” the economy will be able to absorb it very easily, Ulmer said. The Citizen Climate Lobby is pushing this idea in Congress, Donart said, with the added idea of a “dividend” paid back to people from the reduced carbon use.
What is so surprising about today’s political environment, Ulmer said, is that 10 years ago there was actually bipartisan agreements on the need for some form of policy to slow climate change, with carbon emissions trading the lead policy option. “It has taken us ten years to undergo this shift to outright denial,” Ulmer told the panel.
If action is taken soon can the earth heal itself? Ulmer thinks so. “Nature can be part of the solution,” she said. “Our planet can heal itself if we get out of the way.” There are things citizens can do to help this. “Wetlands are incredibly important. If we keep filling them in, the natural cycle can’t help us. We could also do with a little less timber harvesting and more planting of trees,” she said.
The move toward electric vehicles is well under way but governments can speed this with incentives, Ulmer said. “Norway is an oil and gas producing nation but it has the highest percentage of electric cars in the world. This is encouraged by no parking fees for electric cars in Oslo, and no tariffs on imported electrics,” she said.
Yereth Rosen said there are nations that don’t buy into this, Russia for example. “Russia is really big on climate change denial. A lot of Russians think global warming is good,” if it makes winter less severe, she said.
Donart is still hopeful, though. Regardless of Russia a lot of things are happening in many nations. “It’s important to have a hopeful message. If people feel there’s no solution to climate change, they’ll be discouraged and will try to ignore it,” he said. It’s important to help people see what others are doing.
Tim Bradner is co-publisher of Alaska Legislative Digest
Want to do something on climate change?
Here are two local contacts:
George Donart
http://www.citizensclimatelobby.org/
Ceral Smith
http://fossilfreealaska.blogspot.com/p/the-path-forward.html
92 Comments on "There is no Planet B"
Davy on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:05 am
Hopium science that denies the science of the reality of no solutions to a mega multidimensional predicament that is bigger than energy, climate, or a currency. This is existential planetary stuff that has been set in motion. It has been human forced process now for 200 years and is even more than just this human forcing. Nature is unfolding as she does also. You didn’t think nature was going to stay friendly to civilization forever did you? What a child you are. LOL. There are no solutions to this except to acknowledge it and make other arrangements.
Since draconian measures will not be taken enjoy the ride. We likely have some more years ahead for the lucky that are good times. If you are the unlucky majority of the world well that sucks. You deserve to spoil it for the lucky. For the lucky treat these remaining techno optimistic years like a modern day “Logan’s Run”. Some of you young kids on here google “Logan’s Run”. I remember that movie when I was young. Funny you don’t see Logan Run type movies anymore. You see Hunger Games. The reason may be because we are now a binary world of blame and complain of good and evil. We want to blame the “Panem ruling class” or like in Avatar we want to blame the not too disguised MIC. What we lucky ones need is a Logan’s run type fantasy mentality. Enjoy yourself now as you float up to your death.
http://tinyurl.com/yd7rfrz4
“In the year 2274, young residents enjoy an idyllic, hedonistic lifestyle within the protective confines of a domed city. The general belief is that when each person turns 30, they are reincarnated for another blissful life cycle. Those who know the much darker truth become “runners” and flee to a hidden sanctuary. When law enforcement officer Logan (Michael York) goes undercover to locate the refuge, he winds up instead trying to initiate a revolution with runner Jessica (Jenny Agutter).”
Makati1 on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:05 am
” So, what are we going to do about it?”
Hoq does the song go…? Oh, yea.
“Absolutely nothing!”
Isn’t it funny how Russia is in every article if it can be made to look bad. Russia with a population half that of the US, a GDP 1/3 that of America, but sitting on all those resources that avarus America wants.
But then, who backed out of the Paris Climate Treaty signed by 195 countries? Why, the US of course. Yep, the US deserves what is coming and “it ain’t ah gonna be pretty”. Consequences…
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:24 am
Yes and we as a species have been acting like they’re is or will be a Planet B
forbin on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:56 am
If things don’t change we’ll be like Venus – uninhabitable. So, what are we going to do about it?
nothing , nothing at all
if we could burn limestone and chalk then we could make this planet like Venus
but not by burning coal and oil
dont get me wrong – we could end up to our necks in water ( depending on where you live ) but the planet will
be fine
just we humans will be in for a lot of hurt
fun times
Forbin
peakyeast on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:57 am
Planet B – is the same as Planet A, but after the cleanup. That must be why noone in charge is taking the overpopulation and derived problems seriously.. But first we must have enough AI to be able to rebuild high-tech civ. without all the pesky “ordinary” humans…
Duncan Idaho on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:38 am
The physics doesn’t care
The age of paid debate is over , the age of costs is here.
jawagord on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:57 am
The comparison to Venus is always a head scratcher, anyone making it should give back their Noble Prize.
* Venus is 70% of earths distance from the sun and gets almost twice the amount of sunlight of earth.
* Venus rotates in 243 days. The orbital period of Venus is 225 days … the combination of these two periods results in … a day-night cycle of 117 days!
* The atmosphere of Venus is 90 times more dense than that on Earth and it is made of 96.5% of CO2!
* Because of the denser atmosphere and the chemical composition … the temperature …. is more than 470ºC!
Marty on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 11:25 am
Strive to ban gas leaf blowers in your community ! Two-cycle motors are extremely air (and noise) polluting.
The California Air Board estimates that gas lawn tools will be polluting more than cars here by 2020.
Plantagenet on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 12:28 pm
182 nations signed the Paris Climate Accords in 2015 agreeing that the earth can’t warm more than 2°C.
What morons. Signing an agreement that the earth isn’t allowed to get warmer won’t actually stop the earth from warming.
Cheers!
Jerome Purtzer on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 1:02 pm
People have choices. We could all become vegetarians, stop driving cars, live more local, slower lives or we could become cannibals raging around in our hemi cars. Let’s see, what is the intelligent choice? Davy is probably right, the choice has already been made.
Apneaman on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 3:15 pm
Yabut there’s a Planet C
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOjAzI5zALo
That’s where I’m going.
Apneaman on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 5:36 pm
“The physics doesn’t care” indeed. Nor does the biology.
Tree-Killing Beetles Spread into Northern U.S. Forests as Temperatures Rise
A study finds strong links between climate change and the spread of southern pine beetles, whose damage increases the risk of ecosystem harm and forest fires.
Winter cold snaps that once killed the beetles in their larval stage are becoming less frequent at the northern edge of the beetles’ current range, which will allow them to multiply and spread into new territory quickly, the study’s authors say.
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/28082017/southern-pine-beetles-spreading-climate-change-northern-canada-new-jersey-maine
Long running Canadian science program ‘The Nature Of Things’
The Beetles Are Coming – 2013, 43 min
“Summer 2006: Peter Jackson, a meteorologist in Prince George B.C., couldn’t believe what he was seeing on his radar screen. It was like a rainstorm, but thicker, and it was crossing east over the Rocky Mountains. It looked a little like insect swarms, except insects had never been seen at such high altitudes before. Farmers on the eastern slope of the Rockies described huge clouds of insects. They could hear them pinging off their steel roofs. The swarms were so dense they gummed up the windshield wipers on the farmers’ vehicles. This was this first attack of the Mountain Pine Beetle east of the Rocky Mountains… the year when the unthinkable actually happened: carried along by the prevailing winds, trillions of Mountain Pine Beetles crossed the Rocky Mountains from BC into Alberta. Now, the great Northern Boreal Forest, one of the world’s richest ecosystems and one of its greatest carbon sinks, was face to face with a grave threat – a plague of insects, each the size of a grain of rice.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24zxOYwhAys
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 6:34 pm
ape,
I remember beetles warnings 25 years ago along with acid rain killing off trees. Did they plant more??
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 6:40 pm
“Did they plant more??”
No Boat, they’re mostly still dead and standing, except for the ones that keep errupting into those massive firestorms.
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 6:52 pm
Plantagenet on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 12:28 pm
“182 nations signed the Paris Climate Accords in 2015 agreeing that the earth can’t warm more than 2°C.”
Show the link please. Your wording sounds like Republican Fox News propaganda.
The Paris Agreement’s central aim is to strengthen the global response to the threat of climate change by keeping a global temperature rise this century well below 2 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels and to pursue efforts to limit the temperature increase even further to 1.5 degrees Celsius. Additionally, the agreement aims to strengthen the ability of countries to deal with the impacts of climate change. To reach these ambitious goals, appropriate financial flows, a new technology framework and an enhanced capacity building framework will be put in place, thus supporting action by developing countries and the most vulnerable countries, in line with their own national objectives. The Agreement also provides for enhanced transparency of action and support through a more robust transparency framework. Further information on key aspects of the Agreement can be found here.
http://unfccc.int/paris_agreement/items/9485.php
The Paris Agreement’s central aim.
and to pursue efforts
Plantagenet, don’t be a fake news shrill. mak is bad enough. Look at the wording. They be aiming and pursuing towards goals. Are you trying to mimic Ann Coulter?
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:00 pm
According to what you copy and pasted above Boat, the central aim is not just to ‘pursue efforts’ as you so wrongly stated. Shall we try reading the sentence again?
“The Paris Agreement’s central aim is to strengthen the global response to the threat of climate change by keeping a global temperature rise this century well below 2 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels and to pursue efforts to limit the temperature increase even further to 1.5 degrees Celsius.”
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:04 pm
In any event Boat, the agreement is bogus. We are already at 1.4 degrees C, and there is a further 40 years worth of warming already baked into the cake. Plus we continue to add even more CO2 each and every year, including the CO2 added through the manufacturing and implementation of alternate energy schemes.
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:06 pm
Plantagenet on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 12:28 pm
On the other hand I agree with Cheeto that the world does not need a subsidy to fight climate change from the US.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:11 pm
There is no such thing as fighting climate change Boat. Nobody has come up with a viable solution to remove 200 years worth of human generated CO2 from the environment, and each and every year that we continue to add even more, only makes the problem exponentially worse.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:17 pm
Oops, sorry Boat, my bad, you don’t do exponential.
It only makes the problem bigger.
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 7:49 pm
greggiet,
What part of, “aim is to strengthen the global response” do you not understand.
“In any event Boat, the agreement is bogus. We are already at 1.4 degrees C, and there is a further 40 years worth of warming already baked into the cake. Plus we continue to add even more CO2 each and every year, including the CO2 added through the manufacturing and implementation of alternate energy schemes”.
So they don’t meet their goals but continue to work towards limiting CO2 levels. That is better than not working towards limiting CO2 levels you ignorant savage. lol
“including the CO2 added through the manufacturing and implementation of alternate energy schemes”.
Prove that Ann Coulter/greggiet. Dropping coal from 60 percent of electricity to 32 is quite an achievement along with thousands of others. Remember when you look at the graphs the US added millions of people while lowering co2
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=30712
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:01 pm
greggiet,
Full-0-shyt I say. Your a pussy that would give up. I might have been wrong saying Americans are not any more exceptional than others. My bloodline would never quit the fight.
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:31 pm
Boat, it has nothing to do with giving up. Greg is just pointing out that the solutions mankind up till now are proposing are inadequate for the level of threat now existing. And to boot, we are not even fully implementing any possible solutions whether proposed or not. It is a time bomb, the lag effect, the temporary protection from our own pollution blocking the full extent of sun rays, the oceans that inevitably will give up much of the CO2 that they have been storing. Do you really think we can wantonly disregard the signals from Nature and its limitations or fight Nature. That is the hubris of mankind speaking.
Davy on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:42 pm
Onlooker, OK, so what are we going to do? Blame and complain like so many here on this board? Make huge hissy fits on how bad the deniers are and how they should be punished. There was even insinuation a higher power of some kind was punishing Houston. Give me a friggen break like nature gives a rat’s ass about Houston. Nature is doing what nature does best and that is being Nature. Houston was part of a target rich environment. They got some learn’in from this one and I can assure you after this storm season is over the economics of coastal and near shore development will change. This will likely be the year economics trumps denial.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:46 pm
Boat,
I haven’t given up. I’ve already made a radical change in my lifestyle. Billions of others have not.
I do not for one second believe that there will be any meaningful global top down reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, at least not voluntary. The only chance of that ever happening will need to come from the bottom up, and that is simply not going to happen either. I am doing my part, or at least I’m giving it my best shot. How about you? Or are you a merely a pussy who is waiting for somebody else to do it for you?
Makati1 on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:53 pm
Ap and onlooker, I agree. There is nothing that can be done, at this point, to prevent the end of humanity before the end of this century. It appears that the speed of change is increasing, meaning that by 2050, survival as a species may be what is left of humanity’s most important goal. We had it all and are wasting what is left of our resources with capitalist waste and unnecessary wars. We deserve our fate.
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:53 pm
To be honest, I can hardly help myself. It seems just so much in a world is such a bunch of bull. Then to come to this site and hear the bull spewed over and over again from well some here is just too much. We are all keeping each other honest, I think. This is just my way of keeping the Deniers honest. Given that not here nor in the big wide world nobody can or will come up with a way to save us from this monumental train wreck, at least lets talk without the bull.
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 8:56 pm
Mak and Davy, you both actually have more in common that you think. You talk without the bull.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:01 pm
“This will likely be the year economics trumps denial.”
Extremely unlikely. Those who are doing OK will just return to business as usual, those who are not, will continue to be thrown under the bus.
Makati1 on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:04 pm
Gregt, few Americans will voluntarily give up their wasteful lifestyle. We both know that. If you live in the US, the rules and regs require you to do many things that are wasteful. And the bastard American culture is one of waste and sloth.
Most have to own a car because if the burb culture, so they go for SUVs and huge pickups to haul their fat asses and a few bags of junk food from Walmart. Americans are forced to pay taxes to subsidize most of those wasteful, polluting industries and government ‘services’ like a bloated military, car industry, ag industry, petroleum industry, chemical industry, etc. They COULD downsize, but it would mean sacrifice and being shunned as a ‘doomer’ by their friends and neighbors. Not going to happen voluntarily. I have been, and am still, stepping down the ladder. Better to fall from the bottom rung than the top one. lol
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:08 pm
Yep, we need AP, to re-link one of those psychological exposes of how denial does not follow any reason or logic but more like wishful thinking. Case in point Sunweb did a masterful job of debunking Renewable as a solution on a mass scale but we know Clog and others will be back proposing Renewable.
Davy on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:20 pm
Those who do not deny the science but then practice another kind of denial by embracing science denying solutions is just another form of denial. The fake green is another kind of bull. Then there is the “it’s the US fault” bull or it is the “oil industries fault” bull. Let be honest, blaming oil is blaming ourselves. We are little more than an oil derivative. Everything we do and touch is oily so whining about the oil industry is spilled milk.
We need to whine about ourselves as human and our desires to be affluent. Anyone affluent is not doing their part. Patting oneself on the back for doing their part when they are affluent is not it. These people just bought their green washing. To be really green is to be poor with a small footprint. I am not green. I want to be and I am trying to be greener. Not because it matters because it doesn’t matter anymore. I like green as a state of mind and body in relation to Nature. We are on a trajectory and that is a done deal IMO. I am all for renewables but they are not green. Renewables used in the wrong way are just extenders. If renewables are being used in an affluent way then they are not being used in the right way in regards to being green.
Maybe we should start thinking less about being green and more about surviving a coming showdown with reality. That has another focus which includes anything that will lessen pain and suffering ahead. That focus would include FF. I am trying to be green despite the fact it does not matter. I am doing this for my own personal reasons. It feels right to me. It does not make me any better.
I find people who brag about their greenness a joke. Real green people don’t brag. One reason they don’t brag is they are likely not tapping on a keyboard telling us how green they are. They are offline being real green. Another reason they are not bragging is they don’t have time to brag. They are too busy making a hardscrabble living. Real green is stoic, humble, and quiet. No one on this board is real green that I have read especially those who brag about it.
Makati1 on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:29 pm
onlooker, you are not correct on that one. I am no more like the Missouri Mule than you are. He is a bloody flag waving “patriot” 1%er who sees the rest of the world as a sewer. His mind is a sewer as he cannot honestly rebut anything I post, so he reverts to childish putdowns and name calling.
From his latest: “…stupid…”.”…having little understanding of finance.”, “Pass the poopcorn”, “What a sick old man.”, “… your failed American life…”, “…you asswipes…”, and on and on. He has no actual knowledge of my abilities or experience or situation and never will. All he can do is rant like a spoiled child who doesn’t get his own way. If I use putdowns, at least they are polite ones and are in reply to his potty mouth. lol
I could go back and list literally hundreds over the years. Most every reply to any post I make contains at least one. And he cannot resist replying, even if I do not mention him by name. Especially if it some unpleasant fact about the FSA. If you want to back up your claim with facts, I may revise my thinking, but not my comments about the US and the Ps. He can ignore them.
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:35 pm
Totally agree Davy. True green are the poorest on this planet with the lightest ecological footprint. I totally respect anybody who is trying to be lighter with their footprint. But we have talked so much about the many many ways we are on the wrong trajectory that those of us who truly are honest know that we are doomed collectively. Giving up is offing yourself, eating lead etc. But as you said Davy, it is about lessening the mental and physical suffering on that road of perdition.
onlooker on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 9:41 pm
Fair enough Mak. Both of you have irreconcilable differences with each other. But you both have made important points about our collective situation and both concede that we as a species are collectively on an inevitable downward and collapse trajectory. That is way more honest from both of you than what Boat or Cog or some others have voiced. They are the ones who in my opinion are truly dishonest to others and to themselves.
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:02 pm
mak,
Less than 20 percent of leakage originates from ocean-based sources like fisheries and
fishing vessels. This means over 80 percent of ocean plastic comes from land-based sources;
once plastic is discarded, it is not well managed, and thus leaks into the ocean. Over half
of land-based plastic-waste leakage originates in just five countries: China, Indonesia, the
Philippines, Thailand, and Vietnam
Well mak you made the top 5 in something.
https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-01-13/5-countries-dump-more-plastic-oceans-rest-world-combined
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:08 pm
“Totally agree Davy. True green are the poorest on this planet with the lightest ecological.”
I completely agree as well, even though I’m sure that Davy’s little bragging stab was directed at me, which was completely unwarranted.
We’re trying the best that we can to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels, but we are also very aware that going cold turkey would be next to impossible. We aren’t poor dirt farmers living in the third world, and we don’t have multiple lifetimes worth of experience to fall back on.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:16 pm
“Over half of land-based plastic-waste leakage originates in just five countries: China, Indonesia, the
Philippines, Thailand, and Vietnam.”
Interesting stat Boat, but somehow that doesn’t jive with the top ten plastics manufacturers in the world, 3 of which operate out of Texas.
http://polymerdatabase.com/Polymer%20Brands/Plastic%20Manufacturers.html
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:21 pm
Sorry, I see what you said. Leakage.
The thing is, if somebody didn’t manufacture the plastics in the first place, there wouldn’t be any plastic to leak.
Makati1 on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:21 pm
Ok, onlooker, I agree with your analysis. I will continue to point put the FSA’s failures and he will just keep denying them with putdowns and name calling. I think I am one step above such immature reactions. He can ignore my comments. They can all be backed up with facts and reputable refs. I do not accept any US MSM refs as ‘reputable’. There is no truth in them, just spin and lies.
The FSA is dying. Why deny it? Get out if you can. Someday in the not too distant future, the exit door will be slammed shut, just like China is in the process of doing to those who want to leave and take any resources with them. So it will happen in the FSA.
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:23 pm
onlooker,
Your zest for collapse has made you among other doomers pretty poor prognosticators. I am not sure it’s fair to criticize the posters honesty who accurately predicted no crash. I personally have received many verbal attacks for offering an opposing view which day by day continues to be correct.
Makati1 on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:32 pm
Boat, do some research and find out that that article came from a US government affiliated source, PBS (Propaganda Broadcasting Station).
Maybe you haven’t noticed that the US is currently pissed at the Ps because Duterte told Obama that he was a bastard, and then turned to China and Russia as friends and weapon suppliers? You have to put EVERYTHING in to contest to understand the ‘facts’. But, that requires more than parroting US propaganda.
Interesting that the extremely wasteful America, with 20 times the Ps economy and 320% more wasters, is not on that list. Propaganda? LOL
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:35 pm
Boat,
At least 90% of everything that you say is incorrect. Even your above comment is pure nonsense. Onlooker has no ‘zest’ for collapse, and neither do the vast majority of the rest of the posters here. You appear to believe that you are in opposition to most here, when in reality, most here do not want a collapse, and are very well aware of what that will entail.
The reason for the personal attacks Boat, is that you are completely relentless in your ignorance, and you continue to call out people who are miles ahead of you. People who have done the research, that you refuse to even consider.
Boat on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:36 pm
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:21 pm
“Sorry, I see what you said. Leakage.
The thing is, if somebody didn’t manufacture the plastics in the first place, there wouldn’t be any plastic to leak”.
Remember what I said about 3rd world countries and few regulations? Those countries allow plastic in the ocean. In the US you would be fined for not mowing yard.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 10:59 pm
Boat,
Every time I go down to the ocean for a walk on the beach, there is plastic everywhere. Regulations do not stop people from littering. Just like speeding tickets do not stop people from speeding. If human beings stopped manufacturing plastics, there wouldn’t be any plastics in the ocean, or anywhere else for that matter, and just like CO2 in the atmosphere, those plastics are accumulating over time. The more plastics that are manufactured, the more plastics that will end up being discarded everywhere on the entire planet.
Bloomer on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 11:29 pm
Often i go to the grassy knoll and look out to the bay. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. Live in the moment and soak it in. The best things in life are free and is carbon neutral.
GregT on Thu, 31st Aug 2017 11:49 pm
I had a huge dragonfly land on the back of my hand this afternoon. It stayed there for at least a minute. It seemed like forever. Then it flew away.
Bloomer on Fri, 1st Sep 2017 12:15 am
Exactly Greg T we are a specious so busy running about… we lost track of what is going on around us.
GregT on Fri, 1st Sep 2017 12:33 am
I remember reading an article back about a decade ago Bloomer. The average 10 year old is said to be able to identify over 100 corporate logos, but unable to identify 10 species of birds in his own back yard. I find that to be a very sad reflection of our times.
Anonymouse1 on Fri, 1st Sep 2017 1:16 am
The uS spends ~ 900 billion on education, hard to believe when one considers how little they have to show for it…
Anyhow, the uS also spends between 150-200 billion a year on advertising. If you consider advertising directed at merikans but originating outside the uS, the numbers are going to be higher still.
*Im not sure if that ~200 billion figure includes things that don’t appear to be advertising at least on the surface, but actually are, like big-budget movies, superbowl for examples.
Don’t be surprised if the industrial-advertising complex in the uS is anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the education system in terms of resources and budget. And that complex, is not interested in turning people into ornithologists, but brain-dead morons, (right boatietard?).
Mission accomplished, fair to say..