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Page added on January 7, 2016
The Rule Of Law No Longer Exists In Western Civilization
My work documenting how the law was lost began about a quarter of a century ago. A close friend and distinguished attorney, Dean Booth, first brought to my attention the erosion of the legal principles on which rests the rule of law in the United States. My columns on the subject got the attention of an educational institution that invited me to give a lecture on the subject. Subsequently, I was invited to give a lecture on “How The Law Was Lost” at the Benjamin Cardozo School of Law in New York City.
The work coalesced into a book, The Tyranny Of Good Intentions, coauthored with my research associate, Lawrence M. Stratton, published in 2000, with an expanded edition published in 2008. We were able to demonstrate that Sir Thomas More’s warning about prosecutors and courts disregarding law in order to more easily convict undesirables and criminals has had the result of turning law away from being a shield of the people and making it into a weapon in the hands of government. That is what we witness in the saga of the Hammonds, long-time ranchers in the Harney Basin of Oregon.
With the intervention of Ammon Bundy, another rancher who suffered illegal persecution by the Bureau of Land Management but stood them off with help from armed militia, and his supporters, the BLM’s decades long persecution of the innocent Hammonds might have come to a crisis before you read this.
Bundy and militiamen, whose count varies from 15 to 150 in the presstitute media, have seized an Oregon office of the BLM as American liberty’s protest against the frame-up of the Hammonds on false charges. As I write the Oregon National Guard and FBI are on the way.
The militiamen have said that they are prepared to die for principles, and the rule of law is one of them. Of course, the presstitute media is making the militiamen into the lawbreakers—and even calling them terrorists—and not the federal government’s illegal prosecution of the Hammonds, whose crime was their refusal to sell their ranch to the government to be included in the Masher National Wildlife Refuge.
If there are only 15 militiamen, there is a good chance that they will all be killed, but if there are 150 armed militiamen prepared for a shootout, the outcome could be different.
I cannot attest to the accuracy of this report of the situation (the resources required to verify the information in this account of how the government escalated a “crisis” out of the refusal of a family to bend is beyond the resources of this website) – However, the story fits perfectly with everything Lawrence Stratton and I learned over the years that we prepared our book on how the law was lost. This account of the persecution of the Hammonds is the way government behaves when government has broken free of the rule of law.
I can attest with full confidence that the United States no longer has a rule of law. The USA is a lawless country. By that I do not mean what conservative Republicans mean, which is, if I understand them, that racial minorities violate law with something close to impunity.
What I mean is that only the mega-banks and the One Percent have legal protection, and that is because these people control the government. For everyone else law is a weapon in the hands of the government to be used against the American people.
The fact that the shield of law no longer exists for American citizens is why, according to US Department of Justice statistics, only 4 percent of federal felonies ever go to trial. Almost the entirety of federal felonies are settled by coerced plea bargains that force defendants to admit to crimes that they did not commit in order to avoid “expanded indictments” that, if presented to the typical stupid, trusting, gullible American “jury of their peers,” would lock them away for hundreds of years.
American justice is a joke. It does not exist. You can see this in the American prison population. “Freedom and Democracy” America not only has the largest percentage of its population in prison than any country on the planet, but also the largest number of prisoners.
If you consider that “authoritarian” China has four times the population of the United States but fewer prisoners, you understand that “authoritarian” China has a more protective rule of law than the United States.
Compared to “freedom and democracy America,” Russia has hardly anyone in prison. Yet, Washington and its media whores have defined the President of Russia as “the new Hitler.”
The only thing we can conclude from the facts is that the United States Government and those ignorant fools who worship it are evil incarnate.
Out of evil comes dictatorship. The White House Fool, at best a two-bit punk, has decided that he doesn’t like the Second Amendment to the US Constitution any more than he likes any of the other constitutional protections of US citizens. He is looking for dictatorial methods, that is, unlegislated executive orders, to overturn the Second Amendment. He has the corrupt US Department of Justice, a criminal organization, looking for ways for the dictator to overturn both Congressional legislation and Supreme Court rulings.
The media whores have fallen in line with the would-be dictator. All we hear is “gun violence.” If only Karl Marx were still with us. He would ridicule those who turn inanimate objects into purposeful actors. It is extraordinary that the American left-wing thinks that guns, not people, kill people.
The position of the “progressive left-wing” in the United States is perplexing. Here are Americans, immersed into a police state, as are the Hammonds, and the progressive left-wing wants to disarm the population.
Whatever this “progressive left-wing opposition” is, it has nothing in common with revolutionaries. The American left-wing is totally irrevelant, a defeated force that sold out and no longer represents the people or the truth.
If protesting the murder of a young black American by Ferguson police is not legitimate and the protesters are “terrorists,” why aren’t the Oregon protestors terrorists for trying to protect jailbirds from their “lawful sentence”? This is the wrong question.
It really is discouraging that the American black community is unable to understand that if any American can be dispossessed, all Americans can be dispossessed.
It is also discouraging that RT decided to play the race card instead of comprehending that law is no longer a shield of the American people but is a weapon in the hands of Washington.
Why doesn’t RT at least listen to the President of Russia, who states repeatedly that America and the West are lawless.
Putin is correct. America and its vassals are lawless. No one is safe from the government.
68 Comments on "The Rule Of Law No Longer Exists In Western Civilization"
Cloud9 on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 8:48 am
Cycles of lawlessness are as perennial as the grass. “…Destruction and violence are before me; there is strife, and conflict abounds. Therefore the law is paralyzed, and justice never prevails. The wicked hem in the righteous, so that justice is perverted.” Habakkuk 1: 3,4
What follows is social, economic and political collapse. Too many of us have called on the justice system to enforce the laws and been told to go pound sand. The law is no longer a shield for the citizenry. It is a club for our oppressors. In a world of injustice there is just us. Never disarm. Then, when the time comes you will have a choice of dyeing on your feet or dropping to your knees. That is not much of a choice, but it is a choice.
makati1 on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 8:49 am
Laws? What stinkin’ laws?
If you steal a candy bar, you go to jail. If you steal billions, you get praised for your business savvy. THAT is America.
makati1 on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 8:52 am
So true, Cloud9. If you value your life more than your freedom, you will soon lose both. Americans cannot see the chains that are being forged for each of them by their masters.
penury on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 8:55 am
As sad as it makes me I agree with this article. You can take it down to local levels and show where laws are no longer followed. It is sad.
paulo1 on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 8:58 am
Why should anyone have to sell their land to the Govt.? Okay, I accept in times of crisis a levee or highway access is required. For example, where I live a flood washed out a bridge and approach. The town was cut off from the outside world as it is in a narrow valley. The Govt. shaved off a corner of the major landholder, paid him well, and allowed him to reclassify the cut off land in order to be able to sell it. I know, because I bought it. Everyone won on this.
In no way should the rancher be forced to sell for a wildlife refuge. Sweeten the pot until he wants to sell. And if he doesn’t? Wait until the next owner comes along or increase the offer.
Govt. cannot operate as a school bully taking someone’s lunch.
joe on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 9:03 am
Of course there is no law in America, it’s the land of ‘free markets’ and ‘creative destruction’. This is the nation that stole the native Americans lands and put thousands of Japanese Americans into camps (hmm wonder if it could work for muslims) to ‘keep America safe’. No sir, the law always bends and breaks when it suits the power of the land.
eugene on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 9:20 am
There never has been “rule of law” in America. That concept is for the middle class. Lower classes have always been convicted and, often, for crimes they did not commit. Legal representation is crap for those folks. Upper classes have always bought their way out. they can hire the top attorneys, obtain legal favors from judges, etc. It’s all about the charade we call justice.
Like most, I left high school with “visions of sugar plums dancing in my head”. In other words, fantasies of America. I worked around the legal system for some time and quickly started seeing the incompetency, etc. As I “grew up”, I lost all respect but developed a real fear. Prosecutors are scum in my mind. The legal system is just like the rest of us ie promotions, getting ahead, building a reputation, etc any way they can. There are ethical folks but rare as hens teeth as the old saying goes. This ain’t new folks, you’re just starting to see it.
pennsyguy on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 9:42 am
One well-used library card did more to preserve freedom than ten thousand guns. Especially when the powers-that-be could always out gun the citizens. It’s a moot point now though.
Davy on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 9:42 am
I would Agee that civil society in the US has degenerated. If you stay bellow the radar screen and do not look for trouble your chances of avoiding it are good. I live here and I have no problems. People around me do not have problems. This is a big country so we know where the hot spots are. I don’t listen to the hollow rhetoric our leaders preach. If you are a disenfranchised your odds are significantly greater that trouble will find you but the maxim still holds. Don’t look for trouble.
ghung on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 10:56 am
Sorry to spoil the party, but the article has some inaccuracies. The Hammonds aren’t being “forced” to sell their land. Selling the land may be the only choice they have if they can’t pay their fines for starting fires that spread to BLM land they had grazing rights to, before the BLM cancelled their permits. Just sayin’, things aren’t as cut-and-dried as the article wants you to believe:
http://www.tsln.com/news/17302049-113/story.html
Years ago, I was confronted by a rancher for camping on BLM land in Nevada. I had a permit to do so, but the rancher claimed, since he had grazing rights, he “owned” the property. Total bullshit. Anyway, I was diplomatic and asked him where I could camp. He showed me an old ghost town on the map where no one would object. Turned out the place was on a Military Reservation, and I wasn’t supposed to be there either, but someone had torn the signs down. Still, I didn’t get bothered again.
That said, the BLM are assholes in my experience. Legalities not withstanding, this whole thing could have been handled better.
noobtube on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 11:07 am
Selective outrage.
When the Indigenous, freed slaves, or Mexicans, stood up for their rights, the Americans used merciless violence against them, stole their land, and gave nothing in return… THE LAW BE DAMNED!
The United States has always been lawless.
It’s just that now it’s the Americans turn to get a taste of their own medicine… and have the nerve to expect sympathy.
Americans are insane.
baha on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 11:31 am
All the more reason to be independent of society as much as possible.
Keep your head down,
Pay off your debts,
Make your own power,
Grow your own food,
Pay your taxes,
Reload your own ammo.
All of these things remove the handles they use to pry you out.
Apneaman on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 11:37 am
The Oregon Fail – Stephen Colbert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktr9MYFdadc
Apneaman on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 11:49 am
“Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.”
Adlai Stevenson
PracticalMaina on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 11:53 am
BLM should not allow so much grazing on federal land, these animals are the largest emitters of methane, they also should not kill as many mustangs as they do, they should encourage buffalo herds, large mobile omnivores are important to land fertility and carbon sequestration. Another government agency screwing over our ecosystems future for short term profits.
PracticalMaina on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 12:00 pm
Dear Facebook, please send snacks, we are not as hearty as we thought. Turns out the government is stubborn, who knew?
Go Speed Racer on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 12:28 pm
Looks like we are at Peak Whining.
Apneaman on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 12:47 pm
There is no rule of law because the 1% ruling class has corrupted the political and legal system and the managerial class. You could kill a whack of politicians, but they would just be replaced the next day. If you could get enough people to massively reduce their consumption down (See baha’s comment above) to the very basics that would do more damage than any amount of bullets ever would. Might even bring them down, since their power relies on our continual decadence. An actual sacrifice. It’s been done before to great effect and now would be the perfect time. Not likely. Instead you get Trump & Bundy tards. I guess that’s the difference in the quality of the people at beginning of a nation and those near the end of one. Beginning = Ben Franklin, Gandhi, etc. End = Donald Trump, Hillary, etc
During the Revolutionary War, colonial women supported the Revolution by boycotting British goods and raising money.
In response to British taxes on tea, women who sided with the Patriot cause boycotted tea. They also refused to buy imported fabrics like silk and satin, which were subject to British import restrictions.
-Women began spinning and weaving their own cloth at home using American materials. They also scrimped and saved on their household budgets to have more to contribute to the war effort.
Source: Boundless. “Domestic Support for the War Efforts.” Boundless U.S.
non-consumption
The boycott of British clothing and other imports by Americans during the Revolutionary War required the sacrifice of many consumer goods. This policy of non-consumption was an act of resistance by the colonists.
boycott
To abstain, either as an individual or group, from using, buying, or dealing with someone or some organization as an expression of protest. Colonists boycotted British cloths and other goods during the Revolutionary War.
https://www.boundless.com/u-s-history/textbooks/boundless-u-s-history-textbook/american-life-during-the-revolution-1763-1789-8/american-life-during-the-revolution-71/domestic-support-for-the-war-efforts-414-2334/
Swadeshi movement
“The Swadeshi movement, part of the Indian independence movement and the developing Indian nationalism, was an economic strategy aimed at removing the British Empire from power and improving economic conditions in India by following the principles of swadeshi (self-sufficiency; svadēśī), which had some success. Strategies of the Swadeshi movement involved boycotting British products and the revival of domestic products and production processes.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swadeshi_movement
GregT on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 3:02 pm
“Looks like we are at Peak Whining.”
Not yet Go Speed. Expect the whining to get much louder, the longer that the general public allows this shit to continue. It’ll probably reach it’s peak, right about the same time that martial law is imposed. After that, expect the whining to stop.
JJHMAN on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 3:02 pm
I’m not sure if there is more nonsense in the article or the comments. Here’s my contribution:
-The rule of law always has been and always will be a fragile thing. From the school yard bully to the Donald people with power will try to exercise it. To claim that the US is somehow uniquely unlawful is simply a confession of ignorance of human nature and history. I suspect that western Europe may be a better place to live now than the US but that is a very recent thing, within the last 30 years or so. But Europe seems to be going through a bit of madness now and it is not clear where they will end up. I doubt any other nation or region of the world is a better place for a decent, law abiding person to live.
– We will be a lot closer to the rule of law in the US if these Bundy creeps are confronted by the law and brought into a courthouse. They are law breakers and aggressivly ignorant. They are about as patriotic and sensible as Timoth McVeigh. I would take my chances with just about any legal system in the country in favor of them and their values.
PracticalMaina on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 3:04 pm
Just read a report saying the Cologne police were completely overwhelmed by the mobs during New Years eve. Riot control must have been tired from beating up climate protesters? They were apparently pelted with fireworks and bottles, not much of an excuse for not doing your job in my opinion. If ever there was a time for heavy handed police response, they dropped the ball.
GregT on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 3:19 pm
“If ever there was a time for heavy handed police response, they dropped the ball.”
“The beatings will continue, until moral improves”, is not going to solve the problem, and will only make matters worse. There is an underlying issue here that isn’t going to go away until it is addressed. The growing divide between the haves, and the have nots.
Dredd on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 3:29 pm
Sad but true Mr. Roberts (Proxymetry3 – 2).
onlooker on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 6:25 pm
Now that is a priceless quote Mak “If you steal a candy bar, you go to jail. If you steal billions, you get praised for your business savvy. THAT is America.” Yep that is where we are at. The Elites and wealthy can to have and do what they want, everybody else on the planet is just slaves to be molded and manipulated. Here is a good dissection of the world the elites have created for us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipe6CMvW0Dg
Davy on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 6:34 pm
The doors are starting to close:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-07/slovak-pm-closes-door-refugees-we-dont-want-what-happened-germany-happen-here
makati1 on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 6:36 pm
Ap, “I guess that’s the difference in the quality of the people at beginning of a nation and those near the end of one. Beginning = Ben Franklin, Gandhi, etc. End = Donald Trump, Hillary, etc”
Yep you get a people willing to die for their freedom (Revolutionary War) and end up with a people willing to die for the latest ‘must have’ gadget at Walmart. Oink! Oink!
Apneaman on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 10:34 pm
Mak, another example of that high quality 21st century community spirit and patriotism.
Reports of price-gouging, as Porter Ranch families look for temporary homes
“Some landlords in nearby Woodland Hills and Northridge have jacked up rents since the gas leak was discovered in late October in Aliso Canyon. One 4-bedroom home in Northridge is advertised on Craigslist for $8,500 as a ‘Huge Estate House Available, Perfect for Families Affected by Gas Leak.’
Allen Brodetsky, president of Boutique Realty in Tarzana, said “where rental prices would normally go between $3,000 and $4,000, now landlords are asking six, seven, eight, nine thousand dollars— double, triple the rent of what it should be.”
http://www.scpr.org/news/2016/01/07/56700/fears-of-price-gouging-as-porter-ranch-families-lo/
makati1 on Thu, 7th Jan 2016 11:43 pm
Ap, The US is divided between the Oinkers and the Baahers. There is also a hybrid that depends on the situation to make the appropriate noise. Oinkaahs? I think we have one of those here on the forum. LOL
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 5:03 am
Mak, we all know who you are referencing. What is worse being an oinkaahs or a goon?
JuanP on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 8:01 am
As far as I am concerned, that land belongs to the Paiutes and other Native American local tribes. The US government should mount a full assault on these terrorists invading native lands ASAP. Give them a one hour warning and bomb them into oblivion. These guys are terrorists perpetrating a terrorist act in US territory, and the USA does NOT negotiate with terrorists, so kill them all with drones and missiles. They are not worth risking a single outsider’s life.
I will quote the Paiute national leader on this matter “These people are desecrating our sacred lands.” Do I need to add anything more? How long will we keep stealing from the natives?
Now, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Theedouche came here to illuminate us on how these are not terrorists, but rather freedom fighters because they are all trailer park white trash rednecks just like him.
farmlad on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 8:35 am
Juan So you are saying that the paiutes and other local tribes are the real owners of that property. When its most likely that they took it away from other people, and at times used lethal force to keep it.
Now when some white trash want to take it for themselves you are not okay with that?
I suggest you read up on the the idea that land/resource rents be captured for public use or shared, in lieu of harmful taxes on labor and productive investment,by Henry George. Might not be a perfect Idea but something we could all live with.
makati1 on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 8:42 am
farmlad, are you going to sell cheap to the government, your land? If you don’t own land, you don’t have a vote in this argument, I think.
And, you assume that the indians took it from someone else. Assuming something without proof is dangerous here.
Are you also suggesting communism/equal sharing is the way to go? Interesting!
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 8:49 am
No one owns any land. We are visitors and if we hang around we should be responsible caretakers. Since we live in a human construct divorced from a natural reality we have private property and public property. There are well known maxims for fair and equitable property use and ownership. No need to elaborate.
The key concept for the awakened is my first point. If you spiritually submit to nature’s ownership of all land, air, and water everything else falls into place. If you don’t, well, you have what we have today almost everywhere.
farmlad on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 8:53 am
Juan I agree these guys seem to have few morals left, and on top of that, made a stupid move, but I also understand there frustration with the BLM. The BLM keeps on abusing their power and has made life so difficult for many ranches, that they just quit.
Imagine the BLM making life so hard for all the residents in Miami, to the point that they all up and leave. from my perspective it would all be the same.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 9:09 am
Farmland, these type of issues arrive at limits of growth when commons are abused and power corrupted. Our whole global system is to blame at a philosophical level. On the level of the practical refer to Ghung’s comment from yesterday for a good summary.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 9:28 am
If these guys were smart they would be creative not decisive. They would withdraw with a minor victory and increased strength then return to fight another day with more support.
bug on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 9:41 am
Davy, do most people in the US support them? Seems if they did, this would have happened at many more wildlife refuges. Since it didn’t, I am sceptic.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 10:10 am
Most people don’t care. The people who care are politically charge by these issues and of course the locals. These folks have a point but this is a much greater issue than a localized dispute. We have some issues here in Missouri with federal and state land but most people manage to adapt on both sides. What is the limits of private use of the commons and what are the boundaries for administering them? That is a complicated issues above most people’s radar.
GregT on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 10:13 am
“If you spiritually submit to nature’s ownership of all land, air, and water everything else falls into place. If you don’t, well, you have what we have today almost everywhere.”
This is where you and I constantly run into problems Davy. Your US-centric attitude is in complete opposition to your above statement, which I completely agree with. You can’t have it both ways man.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 10:33 am
Greg, your extremist blame and complain everything is Americas fault is the issue. Extremist have issue with any message that diverges from their tightly focused agenda. You have your winners and losers. Your winners are losers just like the US and its problems. I have a right to my opinion without being harassed.
Why did you call me out and label me today? Feel like I have too much to say? If you want to battle fine lets battle with ideas but not labels and names. You get so pissed when I do the same thing to you to show you what it feels like. Somehow you think it is alright for you to do it but having it done to you and or your gang is fighting talk.
I don’t like people like you that are righteous and feel you can point a finger. You are hyper condescending like your shit don’t stink. So what is it battle or discussion? I have lots of poop on your life. Do we spill blood? You and Ape man love to mess with me daily. It will be just another day of shit on the board which people have indicated multiple times they are tired of.
GregT on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 10:46 am
There you go again Davy. I don’t believe in imaginary human lines drawn in the sand. I don’t believe in nationalism, militarism, or the little flags used by the elite to control the masses. Everything that you say mostly revolves around the USA. America this, America that. Grow up already Davy. Re-read your above statement over and over until it sinks in. Otherwise stop wasting your breath. You’re making yourself look like an idiot.
Practical on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 10:47 am
You 2, agreeing and then fighting, agreeing then fighting. I just read an article about DuPont getting away with dumping carcinogens, finally starting to pay up a small fraction of what they profited. I love this country but when the EPA and federal government is constantly fucking over its people for kickbacks, it makes us look like shit. As well as poor foreign policy. I am blessed to live in this country but disappointed we let this shit go on.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:10 am
Greg, back to the usual repetitive game of calling out people with labels then waiting for a response you know you are going to get then starting the game again. Eventually the goon squad gets involved and it is the usual 4 against one day long battle.
You are the most nationalistic on this board. Everything in your friggen life revolves around your hatred of the US. That is your nationalism. You have plenty of support here so someone who would normal be weak emotionally feels emboldened to attack.
It is not enough that the lion share of the messages on this board are anti-American. That is not enough to satisfy your greed so you have to go after people that do not have your required credentials of anti-Americanism.
I am going to provide my opinion as an American with a right to my opinion without your harassment. I live here not in Canada. If you do not allow my right to a message and harass me I will harass you back. So who is the idiot that started this idiots game?
GregT on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:20 am
“If you spiritually submit to nature’s ownership of all land, air, and water everything else falls into place. If you don’t, well, you have what we have today almost everywhere.”
I completely agree with your above statement Davy. You are contradicting yourself.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:29 am
Folks do you see a pattern or trend? This is how it goes on and on and on. Next His buddy will wake from his slumber and lay into me.
Greg, people who label and call people names are weak. Their positions are insecure so they must attack people. The weakest and the most insecure people are those who attack and are mean. Do you want to rise above that and move on or play the game some more.
GregT on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:32 am
“If you spiritually submit to nature’s ownership of all land, air, and water everything else falls into place. If you don’t, well, you have what we have today almost everywhere.”
I completely agree with your above statement Davy. You are in contradiction with yourself.
JuanP on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:38 am
Farmlad, I agree with your perspective about the BLM, but this is not a good way to address the issue. These guys should go home now, their action is counterproductive. It only provides one more excuse for the federal government to increase and abuse its powers.
As far as land property goes, from a philosophical point of view I am against both public and private ownership of the land, but we live in a world where everything and everywhere are owned by someone.
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:44 am
There you go Greg interject some fun and humor. Now I guess that means we can move on.
Apneaman on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:44 am
Davy, why are you starting so many comments with “folks”?
Davy on Fri, 8th Jan 2016 11:58 am
Ape, good morning.