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Page added on July 10, 2014
Plunging toward Armageddon in Israel
The latest cycle of Israeli-Palestinian violence is pulling the region and the world deeper into a grotesque crime of religious-inspired slaughter, but U.S. politicians can’t see beyond their narrow self-interests, writes former U.S. diplomat William R. Polk.
With the killing of three Israeli teen-agers and the apparent revenge murder of a Palestinian youth – possibly burned to death – the hatred between Israelis and Palestinian has reached a new level of obscenity, and it looks like it will get worse. Much worse.
The major Israeli newspaper Haaretz wrote in an editorial: “There are no words to describe the horror allegedly done by six Jews to Mohammed Abu Khdeir of Shoafat. Although a gag order bars publication of details of the terrible murder and the identities of its alleged perpetrators, the account of Abu Khdeir’s family — according to which the boy was burned alive — would horrify any mortal.
“Anyone who is not satisfied with this description, can view the horror movie in which members of Israel’s Border Police are seen brutally beating Tariq Abu Khdeir, the murder victim’s 15-year-old cousin.”
Or, as Israeli columnist Gordon Levy wroteabout the recent atrocities: “The youths of the Jewish state are attacking Palestinians in the streets of Jerusalem, just like gentile youths used to attack Jews in the streets of Europe. The Israelis of the Jewish state are rampaging on social networks, displaying hatred and a lust for revenge, unprecedented in its diabolic scope. These are the children of the nationalistic and racist generation – Netanyahu’s offspring.
“For five years now, they have been hearing nothing but incitement, scaremongering and supremacy over Arabs from this generation’s true instructor, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Not one humane word, no commiseration or equal treatment. They grew up with the provocative demand for recognition of Israel as a ‘Jewish state,’ and they drew the inevitable conclusions.”
Loss of Civilized Men
My own observations are in accord with these remarks. Over the years since my first visit to what was then the Palestine Mandate in 1946, I have watched the disappearance of the generation of civilized men. Such great Jewish figures as Judah Magnes and Martin Buber flourished in the 1930s but are now forgotten or, if remembered at all, are thought of (by Israelis) to have been naive do-gooders and (by Arabs) to have been just front men for the real Zionists, men like Vladimir Jabotinsky, the spiritual father of Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and Benjamin Netanyahu.
The Palestinians now point out that what the most extreme of their spokesmen told the American investigators (in the King-Crane commission that Woodrow Wilson sent to the Levant in 1919), that they feared what has now happened.
In the words of the then senior British intelligence officer (Kinahan Cornwallis), the Palestinians hold “a deeply felt fear that the Jews not only intended to assume the reins of Government in Palestine but also to expropriate or buy up during the war large tracts of land owned by Moslems and others, and gradually to force them from the country.”
The British cabinet already thought something like this was inevitable. It was a price the British were willing to have the Palestinians pay since in 1917-1918 – as World War I dragged on – the British desperately wanted Jewish support in Germany (where they thought much of the Army was under Jewish officers), in Russia (where they thought Jews were the leaders of the Bolshevik movements for a separate peace that would release large German forces to fight on the Western front), and in America (where they thought Jews could provide financing for the war effort).
British Interests
So, the British authorities courted Jewish support in the Balfour Declaration. In careful compromise, they stuck in the Declaration two qualifications – as I recount in two of my early books, Backdrop to Tragedy (with David Stamler and Edmund Asfour) and The United States and the Arab World. They specified their objective as being only “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people” and emphasized that this was not to denigrate the rights of the Arabs “it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.”
Qualifications aside, what has happened was precisely what everyone then knew was likely what has happened was precisely what everyone then knew was likely, the transformation of Palestine into a Jewish state.
In a remarkably candid statement on Aug. 11, 1919, Lord Balfour, the titular author of the Declaration, admitted that “so far as Palestine is concerned, the Powers [The Allies, Britain and France] have made no statement of fact which is not admittedly wrong, and no declaration of policy which at least in letter, they have not always intended to violate.” (Quoted in my book The Elusive Peace: The Middle East in the Twentieth Century.)
The history of the past century of Palestine can be summed up in a few words: For their own interests, the British and then the Americans just closed their eyes to the developing tragedy; both were content to have a poor, defenseless Near East people pay the price for the historic crime of Western anti-Semitism.
Predictably, the Jewish community grew, appropriated most of the best land (largely by purchase from absentee owners), and benefited from massive infusions of foreign money (now totaling well over $100 billion, or more than all the aid programs for the rest of the world). Meanwhile, the Jewish fate in Europe moved toward the Holocaust.
A Tragedy Unfolds
If I were a Jew in Germany in the 1930s, I certainly would have gone to America and if I could not get in — some could not — to Palestine; if I were an Arab at almost any time from 1920 onward, I would have tried to stop the flood of immigrants encroaching on Arab land. Thus, the real culprit in this long-unfolding tragedy is neither the Jew nor the Palestinian. It is us. Anti-Semitism is a Western disease.
What we see today is that the people who really agree with the Jewish terrorists are the Arab terrorists — with the religious fanatics among both peoples increasingly taking the lead. Between them, there is little if any room for people of moderation, much less for decency. Tit-for-Tat is a game played with blood and steel in which no one is or will be immune. There is no end in sight.
So how have we viewed these events? I have listened for my whole professional life to a false dialogue. For years, policymakers and opinion leaders have argued over “solutions” that are unreal or at least tangential. We keep chanting the dirge — one can almost put it to music — one state or two states. Neither is realistic and even if feasible would not solve the fundamental problem. But we seem to believe that, if we can say one or the other often enough, one of them might become acceptable.
The Hard Choices
It is time to drop the nonsense and face the simple facts. They are these:
In the “one state,” the Arabs will be the subjugated minority with few rights and little or any security — they will be the “Jews” of an Israeli Germany or the “Jews” of an Israeli Imperial Russia, cooped up in ghettos, imprisoned, driven into exile or subjected to a final partition. They, their children and their grandchildren will sporadically resist. Their resistance will call forth more hatred and more reprisal. The cycle will continue.
In the “two states,” those living in the truncated remnants of Palestine (the West Bank and Gaza) will be condemned to perpetual poverty and humiliation. They will have almost no usable agricultural land and virtually no water. They will be cut off from possible markets for what little they can produce. They can have no hope of manufacturing because their draw on electricity will be squeezed.
Even the limited money they can earn will be closely controlled and often blocked by the Israeli Central Bank as it now is. They will have limited access to health facilities, educational institutions and even contact with one another, segregated as they are and will be by restricted zones, walls and standing security and military forces. They too would periodically resist or strike out in fury and so draw upon themselves reprisals. And so too the cycle of violence will continue or even escalate.
Even those who think of themselves as “Israeli Arabs” will remain, in the eyes of the real Israelis, just Arabs. They will have marginally better, but still limited, lives as they do today. As hatred grows ethnically they too will be drawn into the struggle. They are likely to lose what they have so far kept.
Shocking the World
Is there an alternative? Yes, there are three although they either would shock the conscience of the world or are themselves unrealistic. Which is worse depends upon who does the evaluation. But as the French political philosopher Montesquieu once observed that my task ”is not to make people read but to make them think.”
The one the Israelis really want is for the Palestinians to just leave. To go where? To refugee camps or wherever, the Israelis don’t care. A reading of all Israeli policies underlines the Israeli intention to make life as unattractive for the Palestinians as world opinion allows. Honest Israelis admit that the conditions they are creating are worse than South African apartheid was for the Bantu. And always the threat of ethnic cleansing hangs high.
The second alternative, which of course many Palestinians want, is for the Israelis “to go back where they came from.” The Arabs day-dream of their relations with the Israelis in parallel to the Crusades. The Crusaders stayed a long time but finally left. The more recent parallel is to the “French” (many of whom were not French at all) pieds noirs in Algeria. It took a century but they too finally left.
The Palestinians keep track of the immigration statistics and observe that in some years more Israelis leave than immigrants come. They also note that a large part of the Israeli population keeps dual citizenship which gives them the option of leaving. New York is said to have a larger Israeli population than Jerusalem.
The third alternative is Armageddon. Israel has a huge store of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and at least once in the past came close to using nuclear weapons. The Arabs, of course, don’t (now) have nuclear weapons, but at least two Arab states are thought to be capable of getting (producing or buying) them quickly. More immediate, the Palestinians, divided and relatively unarmed as they are, have the capacity to inflict pain on Israelis (and so to bring about retaliation). Sooner or later, that capacity will grow.
The Crusades Analogy
Here the analogy with the Crusades may make some sense. One can envisage a scenario in which acts by Arabs could either make life in Israel unattractive or, alternatively, cause the Israelis — in frustration, fear or fury – to destroy the Middle East and all its people. They have the means to do so.
Should we care? Forget the pious statements. If the past is any guide, we didn’t much care about anti-Semitism when it affected the Jews in Europe and don’t much care about it when today it makes life horrible for many Arabs in the Middle East.
There is much cynical (but covert) anti-Zionist feeling even among many U.S. politicians who rush to benefit from Jewish donations. Privately, many admit that much of what the Israelis are doing is illegal and even more is immoral, but it is the rare politician who says anything publicly. And those who have done so have usually paid a politically mortal price.
Meanwhile, as a nation, we Americans keep on doing what we know how to do — giving money and arms. And, in a destructive and self-defeating gesture to “even-handedness,” giving them to both sides, the Israelis and Arab states.
It is not so important that we don’t incur favor by this policy – neither side is smitten by affection for us and the Israeli government almost daily goes out of its way to humiliate our government. But it could be, and in my judgment eventually will be, significant that we are moving toward Armageddon.
Even the most hardheaded and cynical among us should be concerned since there is a considerable danger of a spillover of any Middle Eastern war into our lives — both abroad in other areas, particularly Islamic areas, and at home.
At minimum, long-term and perhaps escalating hostilities in the Middle East would hurt the U.S. economy. Additionally, they could further damage our already fragile ecology, possibly trigger a wider conflict and certainly damage the sense of law, morality and order by which we live. Even short of actual war, the contagion of instability, hatred and violence is likely to spread and so affect us in other areas and on other issues about which we care.
Perhaps, if U.S. leaders could even slightly raise their eyes above their immediate interests and pay a little attention to the turbulent river of events in which we float, we could grab onto a handhold and stop before we reach the waterfall.
Does anyone see any such leader anywhere? I confess I do not. I am afraid, not for me, since I am now 85 years old, but for mine and yours and everyone’s.
57 Comments on "Plunging toward Armageddon in Israel"
Baggins on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 7:26 am
As long as Israel is aiming at expanding border and some kind of Greater Israel the conflict won’t be solved peacefully. There have been plans&suggestions for various kinds of (con)federalism och two-state solutions but they won’t be implemented if one party is not interested in compromising.
paulo1 on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 7:48 am
re statement:
“Perhaps, if U.S. leaders could even slightly raise their eyes above their immediate interests and pay a little attention to the turbulent river of events in which we float, we could grab onto a handhold and stop before we reach the waterfall.”
They can’t do this in their own country, why would one ever expect they would do it in the ME? Everything is about short-sighted US interests. No gain, why not another Rwanda? it looks like Jews will be the Hutus but will use guns and bombs instead of machetes.
Sometimes democracy doesn’t work so well.
Paulo
Richard Ralph Roehl on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 7:51 am
Eventually… there SHALL BE a one $tate $olution in Israel… where arrogant tribe-all-eeego insanity will be subservient to the rights of all humans living get there… or the alleged ‘holy lands’ will be turned into a huge sheet of black radioactive glass. Either way… the world will a better place.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 9:12 am
My guess is that some time in that not too distant future, when the world is suffering an economic collapse and everybody is preoccupied with their own near-term survival, Israel will deal with all their pesky neighbors in short order. There are a lot of problems conflicts in this world that could be ended quickly if those damned human rights and Geneva war crimes monitors weren’t always standing on the sidelines taking notes. Once TSHTF, don’t expect today’s rules of engagement to be adhered to.
Davy on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:00 am
NR, I sometimes think about how compassionate and politically correct the world is now with relative prosperity. I wonder how the rules of engagement with the military and global politics will be when SHTF and the worlds teeming masses are desperate. Who will be listening to these human rights activist? Further I wonder about minority rights and female freedoms. I have a feeling. We will see a reversal of many if not most gains we have seen in the 100 years.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:12 am
Davy, I agree 100%. We will see a return to scorched earth policies. Taking cover behind the skirts of women and children will cease to be a “good” tactic. There will be zero mercy and zero consideration for villages suspected of harboring or aiding opponents — one push of a button two thousand miles away and POOF! — no more village. And I also suspect that you’re right about female freedoms — those are only made possible by the “slave labor” of fossil fuels. No more fossil fuels — then it is back to preindustrial mode of life we go, and kiss all those women’s rights goodbye. We live in an artificial world right now only made possible by vast quantities of oil. When that oil goes, so does the artificial world, and we’ll be right back to facing hardcore reality right in the face. I wonder if men will still be opening doors for the ladies in the future?
Arthur on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:47 am
NWR, and what about slavery? It was abolished in the north only because an oil-based industrial revolution had been kicked off, in contrast to the cotton picking south. If you have ten virtual energy slaves at your disposal, a real human slave is a pain in the neck and not worth the hassle of feeding and housing anymore. The Uncle Tom business model simply had outlived itself.
Arthur on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:49 am
“I wonder if men will still be opening doors for the ladies in the future”
Too pessimistic, as far as the doors to the bedroom and kitchen are concerned.
Arthur on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:53 am
“I wonder how the rules of engagement with the military and global politics will be when SHTF and the worlds teeming masses are desperate. Who will be listening to these human rights activist? ”
To paraphrase slightly the wisdom of chairman Mao: human rights grow out of a barrel of oil.
The more virtual energy slaves per capita a society has at its disposal, the nicer that society tends to become.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:59 am
Arthur — My guess is that one of these days, slavery will make a big comeback. Yeah, it is wrong, brutal, ugly and morally repugnant. But when has that ever stopped some humans from doing what they needed to do to “get ahead” and stay there? If it was up to guys like me, there would never again be slavery in this world. But there are plenty of sociopaths and power-mongers who aren’t like me, not one little bit.
And you are of course correct about men opening doors for women too. Females will retain much of their power over men, for obvious reasons. Some things never change. sigh…
Plantagenet on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 11:00 am
This article is exactly right about the failings of US leaders. Obama’s much ballyhooed “peace” initiative in the middle east is just another one of his many failures. From Russia to Iraq to Israel, Obama’s incompetence results in the exact opposite of what he claims to want.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 11:13 am
Plant — Your “blame Obama fetish” is flat out weird. Like me and almost everybody else in America, you are a totally and completely uninformed on all the secretive inner workings of real powers behind the throne. You only *think* you know what’s going on. Despite repeated attempts by me and many others to explain to you that Obama is just a cog in the machine — a short term employee following orders — you just can’t seem to get it through your thick skull that Obama doesn’t actually call the shots any more than a Captain or a Colonel on the battlefield runs the war. In any case, what you interpret as incompetence, others view differently. Your statements are PURELY political sentiment — your own — and I think your political sentiments stink. Drop the politics, please.
louis wu on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 11:30 am
Plantagenet on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 11:00 am
This article is exactly right about the failings of US leaders. Obama’s much ballyhooed “peace” initiative in the middle east is just another one of his many failures. From Russia to Iraq to Israel, Obama’s incompetence results in the exact opposite of what he claims to want.
And yet the only one that you mention to place all blame on is Obama.
bobinget on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 11:45 am
It appears Israel is preparing the “Final Solution”, a ground invasion.
Egypt opened it’s border yesterday to accommodate
coming hordes of Palestinian refugees.
A mandate to ‘eliminate’ Hamas, elected leaders, representatives of Gaza is going forvards as planned.
No more descriptive name but ‘genocide’ comes to mind.
Our world will soon have an additional million war refugees added and WW/3 is hardly underway.
Israel is a nation of immigrants. Most vocal are Russian and American Jews. “We come from one of the largest countries, (richest countries) in the world to one of the smallest”. ” We have no intention of permitting Israel to get smaller”.
Davy on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 11:57 am
Art so true about openning the door to a woman…she better be a good piece of ass and great in the kitchen. I imagine those women will still pull some strings.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 12:03 pm
Davy — From a purely macho sexist point of view, maybe women’s rights will be reserved for only those that “earn” them the old fashioned way!
I can’t believe I said that — jokingly, of course… 🙂
PrestonSturges on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 12:36 pm
As someone noted, some of the most militant nuts in Israel were born in NYC.
Davy on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 1:03 pm
NR, I am all for it myself. Women and children wlll need an attitude adjustment for sure.
PrestonSturges on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 1:14 pm
Eventually the whole region is going to be radioactive glass, and we may never know who sends up the balloon.
Tiny Radioactive Tree on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 1:25 pm
I like the most the toilet analogy
In a two toilet dwelling with 2 residents, everybody gets their own private toilet. You can go whenever you want, and use the shelves however you want, and you can do there whatever is needed to relieve yourself. Basically everybodies right to the toilet gets respected, as is promised in our constitution of toilet rights.
However,
In a two toilet dwelling with 20 Israelis and 20 Palestinians, it doesn’t matter if you believe the toilet rights and the toilet freedom dream. You have to stand in line, share the shelve space, ask if someone is done, and knock before you enter. But most of all, you have to deal with other peoples shit!
Perk Earl on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 2:02 pm
Armageddon? Seems a bit hyperbolic since these two foes have been going at it from time to time for a very long stretch.
Plantagenet on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 2:56 pm
Its just part of our shared reality that Obama’s so-called “peace” initiative in the middle east has completely failed. I don’t know why some people are so delusional that they can’t just admit the truth. As this article points out, as long as we have leaders like Obama who are naive, self-deluded and unable to face the hard truths about the world, the US will continue to blunder and stumble as it tries to interact with the rest of the world.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 3:03 pm
As long as we have Plantagenet posting on the forum, every problem and every non-problem that can ever be imagined will be all Obama’s fault — no other factors, facts, realities or possibilities considered. Just “Obama did it”. Thanks for your valuable insight and deep thinking on the subject, Plant.
Plantagenet on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 3:19 pm
@NW Resident
This is a thread about the failures of US leadership. Obama is the current US leader, and he is failing, just as the article says.
You’ve apparently appointed yourself the protector of all things Obama, but your self-appointed role as grand poobah and censor doesn’t actually allow you to censor other posters. IMHO, discussions of current events should also include discussions of obama’s role in current events.
Cheers!
bobinget on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 3:20 pm
Perk Earl,
‘Diamonds are forever’ Israel and Palestinians have only been at it for 66 years.
There is talk of a truce. If BOTH sides stop the killing,
there could be a cease fire. The problem, Hamas is not entirely in control of all rocket launches. Much MORE radical Islamic fighters fresh from Syria are loath to stop till they even up scores. Not one Israeli has been injured while 300 or more Gazians have.
This will change as longer range missiles are put into
play. It’s my opinion Right Wing Israeli pols have placed themselves in invasion mode. An untenable position.
If Israel manages to evict or kill most the tiresome indigenous population it makes itself far more
likely to see PRESTON STURGE’S prediction come true.
In the past there was always some doubt if Iraq’s airspace was open to Israeli bombers for their logo awaited war on a powerful Middle East nation, Iran. We can safely say that option is closed to Israel but not Iran’s proxy, Hezbollah.
It looks like Israel is being suckered into a land battle they cannot win.
When I wrote the Syrian (proxy) War has metastasized,
I hoped my meaning was clear. Israel can deal with Hamas, they have contained them for decades. Israel is not that certain about ISIS and a anti Israel united front
that blames all Mideast problems on the US and Israel.
Iraq’s problems are also Iran’s and Israel’s. (Ireland, Indonesia, Iceland, Italy, India, not so much involved)
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 4:16 pm
Plant, whether the article is about Obama’s failures/successes or not, your response is to blame Obama. I’m not trying to censor you, not capable of censoring you. Just trying to convince you to leave your childish and silly Obama-blaming and political opinions somewhere else when you post on this forum. You’re addicted to blaming Obama — please stop it, at least on this forum. Not that I like or dislike Obama and certainly not trying to “protect” him — just tired of seeing your constant splatters blaming Obama for everything wrong in the world when the truth is so much more complicated than you seem able to grasp.
Shaved Monkey on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 5:01 pm
This should have been recognised when it was first implemented that mass migration of Eastern Europeans into a region resulting in the locals being killed, displaced or expelled as refugees wasn’t going to end well.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 5:05 pm
Shaved Monkey — I think humans are right now being faced with a broad assortment of decisions made long ago that have turned out very badly. The decision to establish a “homeland” for Jews in the middle of the one place on earth where they are hated and despised more than any other might rank as one of the worst, perhaps even the worst. But here we are, having to deal with it. Of course, back then, the people native that part of the world were barely even considered people, and certainly not people who’s opinions mattered or who were considered to have any valid say in world affairs. Times have changed, and not for the better.
Perk Earl on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 8:26 pm
“Israel and Palestinians have only been at it for 66 years.”
Bobinget, you don’t consider 66 years to be a long stretch?
Plantagenet on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 8:39 pm
@NW Resident When the article touches on Obama’s failures, your response is to try to hide Obama’s responsiblity. I wish I could convince you to leave your childish and silly Obama-cover up and political opinions somewhere else when you post on this forum. You’re addicted to covering up for Obama — please stop it, at least on this forum. Not that I like or dislike Obama and certainly not trying to “bash” him — I’m just tired of seeing your constant splatters covering up for Obama and the mistakes he has made in dealing with peak oil, the economy and the world. The truth is so much more complicated than you seem able to grasp.
Makati1 on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 8:41 pm
Israel nukes Tehran … 50,000,000 Muslims overrun Israel. They know that. Israel is an ant in a land of anteaters. Numbers do not need nukes, just knives.
Not to mention that the nuclear countries downwind (Pakistan, India, and China) will not be too happy about it either.
Israeli nukes are a threat only if they are NOT ever used.
Davy on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 8:49 pm
Mak, at his Nuk neurosis again. Mak for talking about Nuk weapons as much as you do you sure are ignorant of the realities of the Nuk age. At least you got it right that you are down wind from a ME NUK exchange.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 9:21 pm
Plant — Point to one place where I have tried “to hide Obama’s responsibility.” Good luck with that. This is a peak oil and related topic forum, Plant, and you pollute the comments section frequently with your anti-Obama blaming political sentiments. If you want to blame Obama and engage in political discussion, why don’t you go to a politically oriented forum where your Obama blaming will be welcome? Why leave your smelly political commentary and accusations on a peak oil related website? I’m not the only one who thinks you’re a total ass for doing so, repeatedly, despite numerous requests to stop.
If you were here repeatedly blaming GWB for all the ills in the world today, I’d have the same request — cut the political bullshit on this forum.
BTW, that’s quite a twisted rendition of my post. Not clever at all, but nice try.
Stick with comments on peak oil and related subjects, refrain from controversial political accusations and Obama blaming. Please.
Plantagenet on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 9:34 pm
Hi Northwest Resident. I post here because I’m interested in peak oil, climate change and other related issues. What I don’t get is why you post here? Your only interest seems to be to censor other posters.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 9:45 pm
Plant — If you’re interested in peak oil, climate change and other related issues, then stick with the subject matter. When you post your Obama-blaming accusations on various articles, accusing him of personally being responsible for the problems being discussed in the article (or often times even not being discussed in the article) you do this forum a big disservice. For one thing, new people coming here are likely to see your posts and be turned off — except of course other Obama blamers. Second, you distract from the issues that you claim to here to learn and comment about.
If you read my posts, you’ll find numerous comments on peak oil and related issues, and agreements and disagreements with others on the issues being discussed. I also post links to other articles that I feel add to the on-topic discussion. Your accusation that my “only interest seems to be to censor other posters” is not based on anything but your own twisted perceptions. I’m not trying to censor you, Plant, I’m trying to encourage you to stop posting political accusations and other purely political B.S. on this forum. If it feels like I’m coming down hard on you, it’s only because I and numerous others have asked you to stop the purely political accusations and blaming, and yet you persist. Do you simply enjoy annoying other people and degrading the quality of the comments section on this forum? Is that why you’re here?
clueless on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 9:48 pm
Obama + Oil are like connecting 2 dots, or should i say US + Oil should always be in one sentence, followed with the word addiction, the ends the sentence with WAR.
GregT on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:07 pm
NWR,
Stop feeding the troll.
Makati1 on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:12 pm
Anyone who doesn’t see a war in the near future, is just in deep denial. That is the way most, if not all, empires end. Rome went to war until it couldn’t pay it’s troops and then died. Today, nukes are the war of last resort. And if you think the US is going to submit to another nation …
Northwest Resident on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:19 pm
GregT — Trust me, I’ve thought of that. Maybe I think Plantagenet has some good qualities, and it is worth an effort to try to persuade him. Yeah, that’s it. Waste of time?
Makati1 on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:29 pm
Barack Obama Writes Exclusive Article for Israeli Media: “Our Commitment to Israel’s Security remains Ironclad”
http://globalresearch.ca/
“… Obama’s article proves he is on board with Israel’s policies giving full support politically and militarily. Washington’s peace plan for Israel and the Palestinians has failed which is no surprise especially with pre-conditions that would have forced the Palestinians to accept Israel as a “Jewish State” which Obama mentions in his article. Peace is not on the agenda for the Israeli government. It never was. The tragic death of both Israelis and Palestinians is the consequences of the occupation. A true lasting peace is the only option. Until that dream becomes a reality, the nightmare of unlimited warfare will continue. Obama ends his piece by saying “that is the future the United States remains committed to, as Israel’s first friend, Israel’s oldest friend, and Israel’s strongest friend” for once, I actually believe him …”
About the author:
Timothy Alexander Guzman is an independent researcher and writer with a focus on political, economic, media and historical spheres. He has been published in Global Research, The Progressive Mind, European Union Examiner, News Beacon Ireland, WhatReallyHappened.com, EIN News and a number of other alternative news sites. He is a graduate of Hunter College in New York City.
SilentRunning on Thu, 10th Jul 2014 10:44 pm
Religion is – in the final analysis – a curse upon humanity. Perhaps there is a God, but he is actually a Supreme Demon who delights in spreading fanaticism and watching his mortal creation tear each other to shreds over petrified superstitions.
In an ideal world, all religions would be annihilated by education and medication.
Northwest Resident on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 12:19 am
SilentRunning — For there to be no religion, there would have to be no ignorance, superstition or fanaticism. Unfortunately, where we’re heading as a civilization I think we’re going to be seeing a lot more of that, not less. I’m afraid that ideal world is completely out of reach in the foreseeable future for humanity. Maybe another civilization of humanoids somewhere else in the universe have it all figured out. Humans have a long way to go.
GregT on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 12:24 am
“Religion is – in the final analysis – a curse upon humanity.”
Human science and technology is- in the final analysis – a curse upon humanity. The planet that ‘humanity’ is borne from, lives on, and dies on, does not live by our rules. We are not in control of it. The planet has existed for million/ billions of years without us, and will exist for millions/ billions of years without us. Our ‘science’ is totally irrelevant, it is nothing more than arrogance.
In an ideal world, all educational indoctrination, and political propaganda would be annihilated. Spirituality would be widely accepted. and promoted, not masked by false human ideologies, or drugs.
Shaved Monkey on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 1:41 am
Capitalism is a religion.
Arthur on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 3:56 am
Humans are hands down the most fascinating creatures on the planet, the most evolved containers of the eternal World Soul. Stumbling from tragedy to tragedy, beyond good and evil.
Look in the mirror and be prepared to meet God.lol
See ye on Mars.
Davy on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 6:48 am
Guys, I am a spiritual person mainly. I find all major religions infested with what NR says “ignorance, superstition or fanaticism”. I also agree to a degree with Silent “Religion is – in the final analysis – a curse upon humanity”. I whole heartedly agree with Greg “Human science and technology is- in the final analysis – a curse upon humanity”. In the end it is human science that opened Pandora’s Box allowing collective suicide. At least a suicide that may almost work i.e. bottleneck. Silent the reason I agree to a point with you, as is apparent from what NR mentions is religion has killed and maimed directly and indirectly more than any political/economic “religions” like Monkey points out. The major religions of Christianity and the Muslims are promoting the collective suicide of overpopulation. Not enough Jews around to matter but they are in on it too. I do want to say my boys go to a very good Catholic school in a small town. They have an excellent academic program and are receiving very good moral and ethical training. Small school, small class size, and moral behavior is a great combo. I am only in this small town a few times a month for a few days. I can’t leave my animals on the farm long and the boys live with their mom. I participate in the Catholic services when there and help out at school. I want to say this about religion in the coming collapse especially in America. Our country is firmly religious with the backbone of America’s “salt of the earth (middle class)” people. It will be these religious communities of the faithful that will be our vehicles for negotiating the coming descent most effectively. It will be these communities that will accept hardships, suffering, and death through their faith. They are an organized group “communities” of people dedicated to providing and caring for the members. You can say what you will about religion but 2000 plus years of traditions, customs, and the community does matter in many ways. Forget the dogmas and look at the “community”. IMA an analogy Silent “guns don’t kill people, people kill people we can look at religion in a similar vein. Also I do not want to leave out the eastern traditions like Buddhism, Taoism, and the Hindu’s. It is the incorporation of the eastern, western, and Native American traditions (naturalism) that has influenced me spiritually. I have ended up somewhat mystical because Faith and Science act like a magnet at a point being repelling forces of opposite energies and you cannot go any further with either IMHO yet you cannot negate either power. OK, done preaching for the morning.
Makati1 on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 8:21 am
What is religion but a way to blame god for our fate when things do not go the way we want, and to thank that god for our good luck when things go the way we want? Hope is another name for faith that some god will take care of us. The after-life is just a way to say this life is not important so I will pay my taxes to my church and hope for that promised land instead of fighting to make my current world better.
A rational adult will take responsibility for all of his actions and accept the results, good or bad. Unfortunately, too many of us are not rational adults but immature semi-adults. After 28 years as a Mormon, holder of the high priesthood and member of five bishoprics, I saw the lie behind the curtain. Religion … A blight on humanity since there was extra resources to pay a priest to lead us around by the nose and control our only life.
bobinget on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 8:39 am
“Come on Jesus, are we here to do miracles, or play golf?”
Death toll in Gaza is now over 100. In Israel, zero.
Does ANYONE still believe Israel continues to pound Gaza as revenge for unsolved murders of three Israeli young?
Wikipedia:
“During the occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany, the Germans applied collective responsibility: in Poland, any kind of help given to a person of Jewish faith or origin was punishable by death, and that not only for the rescuer but also for his/her family.[3][4][5] This was widely publicized by the Germans.[6][7] During the occupation, for every German killed by a Pole, 100-400 Poles were shot in retribution.[8] Communities were held collectively responsible for the purported Polish counter-attacks against the invading German troops. Mass executions of roundup (pol: łapanka) hostages were conducted every single day during the Wehrmacht advance across Poland in September 1939 and thereafter.[9]”
Traumatized Israelis seem to always forget the outcome of WW/2.
Israel has ulterior motives attempting to kill off most of Hamas leadership. I speculate Israel feels it needs to
neutralize opposition in Gaza prior to mounting a far larger operation. Rapprochement with Iran is out of the question. The fact that recent events in Iraq have drawn Iran and Iraq and US into an affair of convenience must have Tel Aviv in a tizzy.
J-Gav on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 11:50 am
Lots of interesting info from and about posters here so I’ll add my 2 cents on two or three.
First, Makati. 28 years as a Mormon? Man, that blew me away! Not at all a judgment, just found it fascinating …I spent 14-15 years as a devout Protestant (medals all over the place to prove it) before walking away but your experience must have been something else again!
I have no regrets, it’s all part of waking up as to who we really are in the scheme of things to the extent that we’re capable of it. As you say, over history, extra resources enabled the establishment and extension of hierarchical priesthood systems with their attendant privileges, etc. Kinda defeated the original message, didn’t it?
J-Gav on Fri, 11th Jul 2014 12:15 pm
Davy – You’re next up here for my “spirituality part 2 comments.
All of the so-called “religions of the book” (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), put into historical perspective, provided some measure of improvement over reigning social conditions at the time. Judaism brought some order into the Mess-‘o-potamia which already existed over 2500 years ago. Islam did the same vis-à-vis the head-chopping marauders who roamed the steppes of Central Asia. Christianity also provided what were essentially the first institutions to provide for the destitute, the sick, the mutilated, etc.
This all came at a price however, as the strictures and dogmas and hierarchical structures confined the populace ever more within ‘official’ interpretations leaving little room for personal intellectual freedom to investigate the issues.
Not to mention all the wars, devastation .. wrought in the name of one intrepretation over another, or against indigenous peoples, whose very humanity was questioned.
So, like you, I dug into the Kabbala, Taoism, Hinduism, Bouddhism, Chamanism etc and found something attractive in each of them.
Upshot? I agree that “sprituality” will have to be a part of getting through the bottleneck. But, just as with politics and the economy, if it’s imposed top-down as opposed to welling up from peoples’ true sentiments on the ground, it will be a “Fail.”
PS – I have a brother who is a staunch (but not aggressively militant) atheist (like me) who still goes to mass every Sunday to play guitar and sing for the congregation – and I have no problem at all with that.