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Orlov: Fact-Free Zone
The fog of war that has been hovering over eastern Ukraine has now spread to the shores of the Potomac, and from there has inundated ever pore of western body politic. The party line is that pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine have shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17, using a surface-to-air missile provided by Russia, with Russia’s support and complicity. The response is to push for tougher sanctions against Russian companies and Mr. Putin’s entourage. None of this is based on fact. To start with, it isn’t known that MH-17 was brought down by a surface-to-air missile; it could have been an air-to-air missile, a bomb on board, a mechanical failure, or the same (or different) mysterious force that brought down MH-370 earlier this year. Mysteries abound, and yet western media knows it’s Mr. Putin’s fault.
Step through the looking glass over to Russia, and you hear a completely different story: the plane was shot down by the Ukrainians in order to frame the rebels and Russia in an attempt to pull NATO into the conflict. Here, we have numerous supporting “facts,” at varying levels of truthiness. But I have no way to independently verify any of them, and so instead I will organize what has been known into a pattern, and let you decide for yourself which story (if any) you should believe.
When trying to catch a criminal, a standard method is to look at means, motive and opportunity. Was the criminal physically capable of committing the act? Did the criminal have a good reason for committing it? Did the criminal get a chance to do it? One more criterion is often quite helpful: does the crime fit the perpetrator’s known modus operandi? Let’s give this method a try.
Means
Did the rebels have the means to shoot down the plane? They have no military aviation and no functioning airport (the one near Donetsk is out of commission and occupied by Ukrainian troops). They have shoulder-fired missiles, which can take out helicopters and planes flying at low altitude, but are useless against airliners flying at cruising altitude. They also have a “Buk” air defense unit (one truck’s worth of it) which they took from the Ukrainians as a trophy, but it’s said to be non-operational. A rocket from this unit could have shot down MH-17, but only if it were integrated with a radar system, which the rebels did not have.
Did the Ukrainians have the means? They had five “Buk” units active in the area on that day, integrated with a radar system which was also active that day. (Deploying an air defense system against an enemy that does not have any aviation seems a bit strange.) According to a report from a Spanish air traffic controller who was working in Kiev (and has since been dismissed, along with other foreign ATCs) MH-17 was followed by two SU-25 jet fighters. According to a Russian expert on “Buk” systems, the damage to the fuselage visible on photographs of the crash site could not have been from a “Buk” surface-to-air missile, but could have been caused by an air-to-air missile fired by a SU-25.
Did the Russians have the means? Of course they did. Never underestimate the Russians.
Motive
The rebels had absolutely no reason to want to shoot down that plane. This leaves open the possibility that they shot it down by mistake, but that’s not a motive, and if that is what happened, then this is not a crime but an accident, because a crime is an intentional act.
On the other hand, the Ukrainians had a really good motive for shooting it down. This part takes a little more explaining.
You see, the Ukrainians have been doing everything they can to pull Russia into the conflict, in order to then pull NATO into it as well, because their chance of victory while acting alone is nil. To this end, they have been shelling civilian targets relentlessly, causing many dead and wounded, in the hopes that Russian troops would pour across the border to defend them. This failed to happen; instead, the Ukrainians have succeeded in precipitating a refugee crisis that has produced something like half a million refugees seeking asylum in Russia. This has had an effect opposite of the intended. Whereas previously the rebels’ recruitment activities were somewhat hampered by a wait-and-see attitude on the part of the population, now they have seen all they need to see and are ready to fight. Also, the Russian population inside Russia itself has found the stories of the refugees sufficiently compelling to open their wallets, so that now the rebels are drawing healthy salaries and have good kit and a steady stream of supplies. They are highly motivated to fight and to win, with a steady rah-rah of support coming from across the border in Russia, while the Ukrainian forces they face consist of underfed, untrained, badly armed recruits being goaded into battle by Right Sector thugs. Their recent battle plan was to directly attack the population centers in Donetsk and Lugansk while cutting the rebels off from the Russian border. One column managed to break through to the defunct Donetsk airport, where it has been kettled every since (it is currently trying to break out in the direction of Donetsk). The troops massed along the Russian border got kettled there and decimated, with quite a few Ukrainian soldiers walking across the border sans weapons seeking food, shelter and medical treatment.
So much for Ukrainian military strategy. But the other thing to note is that time is not on the Ukrainians’ side. First, a bit of background. Ukraine has always been a rather lopsided country. There are the Russian provinces in the east, which had coal, industry, good farmland, and lots of trade with Russia proper. They used to be Russia proper until Lenin lumped them into Ukraine, in an effort to improve it. And then there is western Ukraine, which, with the possible exception of Kiev, could never earn its keep. In terms of economic and social development, it resembles an African nation. Since its independence, Ukraine had subsisted through trade with Russia and through transfer payments from (Russian-speaking) Ukrainian citizens working in Russia. Because of fighting in the east, trade with Russia has been disrupted. Ukraine has been cut off from Russian natural gas supplies due to nonpayment; as a result, more and more Ukrainian cities no longer supply hot water, and come winter, there will be no heat. The economy is in freefall. The Ukrainian government received some funds from the IMF, but these are being squandered on the failing military campaign. The association agreement which Ukraine signed with the EU remains a dead letter because Ukraine does not make anything that the EU wants, and Ukraine has no money with which to buy anything the EU makes. So much for Ukrainian economic strategy.
And so, from the Ukrainian government’s perspective, shooting down an airliner and blaming it on Putin (which is something that western governments and media are only too happy to do) probably seemed like a good ploy.
What about Russia? Well, the Russian government’s chief concern is with avoiding becoming drawn into the conflict. The basic Russian strategy is, as I put it a couple of months ago, to let Ukraine stew in its own juices until the meat falls off the bone, and this strategy is working just fine.
It is important to draw a difference between the Russian state (Putin, the Kremlin, etc.) and the Russian people. According to Russian law, any Russian-speaking person born on the territory of the USSR has an automatic right to a Russian citizenship, so the people of eastern Ukraine are by default Russian citizens. It is a fine line between providing support to your fellow-Russians across the border as a people and being drawn into an international conflict as a nation, and the Russian government has been rather careful to preserve this distinction. Thus, the Russian government was very highly motivated to prevent this incident.
Opportunity
For the rebels, the opportunity amounted to looking up and seeing a plane. If, at that moment, they made the split-second decision to shoot it down using one of the “Buk” rockets (provided they had one ready to go) without radar support they could have only fired that rocket in “pursuit mode,” where the rocket flies to where the plane is, not to where the plane will be, and it is rather uncertain whether the rocket would have caught up with the jet before running out of fuel.
On the other hand, the Ukrainians gave themselves the opportunity by having Dnepropetrovsk ATC redirect the flight over the conflict zone, where they deployed their “Buk” systems.
I have trouble imagining a scenario in which Russian air defense forces would have been presented with an opportunity to shoot down MH-17.
MO
Although some criminals commit just one crime (and sometimes even get away with it), typically a life of crime follows a pattern. What is the pattern behind shooting down MH-17? It is to kill civilians for political gain. What has the Ukrainian government been doing, for quite some time now, in shelling apartment buildings, schools and hospitals in the east of the country? Killing civilians, of course. And why have they been doing it? For a political reason: to attempt to draw the Russian military into the conflict, in order to then appeal to NATO for help. This is part of a larger plan on the part of the US to use Ukraine as a wedge between Russia and the EU, to deprive the EU of Russian natural gas supplies and make it even more dependent on the US.
Conclusions
My effort here is to present you with a better framework for analyzing these events than you might find elsewhere, but I hope that you uncover your own “facts” (to the extent that facts can be said to exist on the internet) and draw your own conclusions.
But I would like to point out a few things.
First, I often encounter a certain attitude among Americans. They may absolutely hate the evil clowns in Washington who are ruining their lives, but when looking at the world, they suddenly decide that every other government is equally bad, that theirs is not so bad after all, and since the Ukrainians are suddenly our friends (or so says John Kerry) then they are not so bad either. Don’t make such assumptions. Look for evidence. To me it indicates that your government is run by evil clowns; other governments—not so much.
Second, citizens of the European Union shouldn’t think that it is only the dark-skinned people in faraway places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and so on that get killed in the various wars instigated by the US. Continue outsourcing your foreign policy to the evil clowns of Washington (and the spineless jellies in Brussels) and you too will get killed.
Lastly, we already know who the criminals are in this case: they are the western politicians and journalists. Airliners fall out of the sky with some regularity. This is tragic, but not unexpected, and is not necessarily the result of a crime. The real crime is in exploiting this tragedy in order to smear and insult an entire people. Don’t worry, the people in question are too wise to respond to such ridiculous provocations. But the reputations of western journalists who have been covering this tragic event have already gone up in smoke. All of western media is now about as good as Pravda was back in the Soviet days—good for wiping your ass with, that is. It’s a sad day for anyone who cares about the truth but can only understand English.
57 Comments on "Orlov: Fact-Free Zone"
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 8:02 pm
Thanks Dmitry,
For attempting to be a voice of reason. Sadly, your message has already been drowned out by the west beating their drums of war.
It is war that they want, and it will be war that we will get.
Makati1 on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 8:46 pm
Well done Dimetry Orlov.!!!
Is this the one shot heard round the world like ~100 years ago* ? WW3 is in process, but now it may come out in the open with ‘duck and cover’ coming back to America in reality.
*28 June 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:06 pm
Orlov should be disqualified as a juror in this case. He is a rabid anti American. He makes some good points but just like the western story it is still a story and it is bias towards Russia. I am still on the fence. Red flag action seems most compelling and western MSM story too simplistic and idealogue. But this is the fog of war. Remember what happened at the UN before the Iraq war. Both sides are suspect IMHO.
Northwest Resident on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:40 pm
On the one hand, the Russian “rebels” were winning decisively, so why in the world would they shoot down a civilian aircraft. Given the fact that the Ukrainians were getting their butts kicked, it would seem logical that they would be most likely to shoot that airliner down and attempt to frame pro-Russians for the disaster. In this world, Public Relations is everything!
But then, we also know that pro-Russians were successfully shooting down Ukrainian combat planes leading up to this event. And it makes perfect sense that a bunch of pro-Russian missile launching dudes might be sitting around drinking vodka and doing the nasdahrovia thing (as Russians are very fond of doing, I know because I lived there), and they shot the plane down thinking it was “fair game”, not knowing that it was a civilian aircraft. Then, realizing their mistake, they reverted to doing what any group of vodka-drinking Russians who just screwed up big time would do — they denied everything.
The REAL QUESTION in my mind is WHY was that Malaysian passenger jet flying over a KNOWN combat zone? WHY! WHY! WHY! Did Ukrainians direct the jet over that area, knowing that vodka-drinking Russians were in the area with a hair trigger on their missile launcher? If so, then the Ukrainians (also a bunch of vodka-swilling dudes if ever their were any) are the guilty party.
It was and is a fucking war zone. Opposing force combat jets are fair game. The vodka-swilling Russians could NOT have known that it was a Malaysian passenger jet. This situation stinks, and I suspect that it was set up and is being played for pure propaganda value.
Never forget that the lives of almost 300 people are meaningless to the ruthless and Machiavellian forces that run things on planet earth. If 300 deaths is what it takes to rack up a big propaganda victory and sway public opinion your way, then so be it.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:41 pm
Orlov is not anti American Davy. He is anti-people that have highjacked the American government, the American constitution, and the American citizenry. Myself I have always been a proud Canadian, after watching the events of the last several days unfold, I am saddened to say that my country has now been taken over, much like yours has been.
As citizens we have a responsibility to hold our leaders and our media accountable. That is what it means to be a true patriot. To allow the lies, deception, corruption, and murder to continue, is to allow our fine nations to be systematically torn apart. If we can no longer trust our institutions to uphold the very ideals that we espouse, freedom, justice, and the rule of law, then we will lose the very things that have made our nations the shining lights in an otherwise dark world. It is a slippery slope Davy, and we are sliding down that slope at an accelerated pace.
And yes, I can remember what happened at the UN before the Iraq war, sadly familiar to Samantha Powers today. In a just society, innocence is upheld until guilt has been proven. In an unjust society, guilt is proclaimed before any proof has been shown. We have now become unjust Davy, no evidence has been produced, as a matter of fact, no investigation to find that truth has even taken place. Our governments are bearing false witness Davy. I know that you understand what that means.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:52 pm
Fair enough Greg on the Canadian and US government. Your not going to sell Orlov on me. He is as bad as the people he criticizes. Even his original book on collapse had a US centric focus instead of a global focus. The US is in his cross hairs distorting his clarity.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:55 pm
NR, I am with you with the question of wtf was a passenger airliner flying over a war zone. Maybe someone should be asking the Malaysians about that. Looks like pure negligence if you ask me.
Makati1 on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:58 pm
“Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014,” (S.2277)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-congressional-blueprint-for-us-intentions-legislating-the-way-to-world-war-iii/5392415
Nuff said…
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 10:13 pm
Sorry Davy,
Not picking on you. There is plenty of info on exactly why that particular flight was 200 km north of it’s usual flight path. Info that should be considered in an unbiased, fact finding investigation. Info that is being completely ignored and covered over, to promote an agenda.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 10:32 pm
Thanks for the link Makati,
Should be mandatory, but I’m sure that it will be mostly ignored.
People truly are no longer concerned with truth, I see it more every day.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 10:33 pm
Greg, not feeling picked on. I need more time to draw a conclusion. In the mean time I appreciate your inputs.
steve on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:31 am
Dimitry is a hack job….yes he does make some good points but he is too U.S centric…it is an easy sell…but still it falls way short….I don’t trust russians never have not since WW2.besides how can you take anyone that always has creepy sadomasochist sex pictures attached to his stories…creepy old man…yuck…..Also his boat theme in the time of collapse is probably the other dumbest idea I have ever hear….anyone who has ever spent time in the ocean sailing knows that upkeep on a boat is enormous….
GregT on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 1:03 am
Steve,
Russians were our allies in WW2, but I guess you probably have some good reason to mistrust 145 million individual people of all different colors, religions, and walks of life. Who in their right mind would ever question your strong, high moral integrity on this matter? You are truly a person of distinguished character.
Arthur on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 3:52 am
http://www.powned.tv/nieuws/binnenland/2014/07/trein_met_doden_nog_altijd_in.html
Train has arrived in Charkov.
Arthur on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 4:25 am
Home run lucid article by Dmitry Orlov. The truth will probably come out soon now that the black boxes are underway to Malaysia and a Dutch led forensic team will investigate the wreckage. Unlike Anglo politics, Dutch politics has been extremely reluctant with finger pointing and insisted on a thorough investigation first. That is the correct attitude.
It won’t be long before Ukrainians start to realise that their country was merely used as a pawn by the west (read US/Nicky F@ckland and spineless satraps in Brussels, who let it all happen) to instigate conflict with Russia. By the end of the coming winter Ukraine could be back in Russian orbit again.
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 6:47 am
Art this is why I am on the fence. I feel some here in their passions are inadvertently taking sides in an attempt to call into question the western MSM propaganda onslaught. This is understandable but again lets give this investigation time. The real blame is with the Malaysians. You don’t even think about flying over a country that is a war zone. Their airline deserves to be dissolved after two weird events.
Arthur on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 7:07 am
I agree Davy. I’m on the fence as well, but from what I have seen and read so far I’m leaning towards the Russian interpretation. The blackbox voice recorder could give important clues, because the same recordings were confiscated by the Ukr secret service, no doubt for a reason.
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 7:19 am
Fair enough Art, I am also leaning that way. I have become so disillusioned with western MSM and the propaganda machine. Yet, the Russians and their offspring (rebels) are master manipulators so I would not put foul play past them. In any case all side bear blame including Malaysia.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 8:25 am
First, Dmitry. I disagree with Dmitry on most subjects most of the time, but I value his input and read his writings for two reasons. First, his experience of collapse in the former USSR and the fact he migrated to the USA provides a unique perspective, and, second, he is an original thinker who sometimes provides valuable insights in spite of his biases.
I might add that as a rule I don’t believe a word anyone says or writes, and this applies to him, too. We are all biased and biases are very hard to compensate for, one of my life long fights is against my biases. Buyer beware as usual!
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 8:47 am
The article makes one point that is sadly true about Western MSM today being no better than Pravda of old. I have to admit that the way the MSM has been treating this airplane tragedy is repugnant to me.
I, like others here, am 100% on the fence on this one at this time, in spite of my gut feeling for days about a coming false flag in Ukraine. Facts are missing, there is no evidence of any kind yet, but, I’ll beat Plant to it, and accuse President Obama of lying in public by assigning guilt without proof, investigation, or trial. And, we all know, that if they had any proof of Russia being guilty in any way they would have used it by now. I repeat, I think we will never know the truth beyond reasonable doubt on this one.
GregT on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 8:59 am
Newspaper article this morning is stating that the inspectors were loading the bodies into trains last night and they suspect that the rebels have removed all traces of shrapnel from them. It also claims that the black boxes have been tampered with, probably destroying the evidence of the time stamped explosion that Kerry says the US has traced to a missile launch in rebel controlled territory. It goes on to state that the intercepted cell phone call has been proven to be the voices of a rebel commander speaking with a Senior Russian military advisor.
The media propaganda is a blatant lie. Having followed this story from the beginning, and watching the media from all sides, what we are hearing here is not even remotely close to reality.
Sickening really.
Arthur on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:10 am
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/us-government-releases-alleged-evidence-mh17-missile-trajectory
CNN now comes with a very detailed interpretation of events. No proof yet.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:11 am
NWR, reading your comment on those guys drinking Vodka by their missiles got my twisted mind going on a new perspective.
You pointed out that the rebels have been shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft for weeks, with increasing success I will add.
I agree with Orlov in that both sides most likely had BUK anti air missiles. There was an undisputed report by an AP reporter on the ground weeks before this incident that reported with pictures that the Eastern Ukrainians had stolen one launcher unit and the Ukrainian army has had several for years.
These medium range BUKs are very complicated pieces of equipment. They require a minimum of two different vehicles to operate, the radar unit and the launcher. The vehicles can be many miles apart from each other and the effective range is 22 km or less, the closer, the more effective. It takes a crew of six or more and requires very specialized training for its operation.
Anyway, back to my new idea: What if Kiev did this in a bid to discourage the Federalists from continuing shooting down their planes and stop Russia from providing them with short range missiles?
I don’t believe for a minute that Putin gave this, or any other, medium range Buk to the people of Eastern Ukraine. Putin is not that stupid and is trying his best to deescalate, IMO.
Dredd on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:18 am
Davy,
When you feel like getting of the fence be sure to peruse some history of the Ottoman Empire, which the Ukraine was part of at one time.
The exercise is to know that this episode is just another oil war in a past century of such oil war episodes.
Just sayin’ …
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:21 am
Davy, the simple fact that you read the article sets you apart from the majority of your compatriots.
I don’t think Dmitri just hates the USA, he both loves and hates it. He loves the good and hates the bad as he sees it, but, as the saying goes, you have to take the good with the bad.
Some aspects of American culture irritate him and he is expressive and melodramatic about it in his writings, which gets annoying after a while.
As a lifelong sailor, I think his idea of living in a boat as an adaptation to collapse is bad in the long run. Piracy will become rampant and boats are indefensible, I sold my sailboat three years ago.
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:23 am
Juan, I agree with your bend “But” there is a porous border and Putt does not have complete control of his rebel offspring. The necessary equipment and expertise could easily cross the boarders with or without blessings or taking a blind eye. I feel the DC mafia and their minions the USMSM is in the wrong for not laying low until the facts are in. In this case of a propaganda offensive rational people like here on this board will feel the false flag is compelling.
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:29 am
Dredd, this complex and a multi-caused conflict that goes deeper than oil but for sure energy is a background reason.
Juan, Dimitri had those intensions early on but has become disillusioned and frustrated. He is now drifting into extremism of thought IMHO. He still has valid points but his bias is towards extremism.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:36 am
Davy, There have to be in Eastern Ukraine, former military elements that know how to operate the BUK, if it works. That border has more holes than Swiss cheese and Putin can’ t be everywhere at the same time, but I think he would have done everything possible on his part to only allow the transfer of small weapons. I believe Putin is more scared than ever before in his life right now, and he would not turn a blind eye to transferring this systems or knowledge on how to use them to the rebels, IMO, he would kill on the spot anyone doing that, if he is as smart as I think he is. I would not do it if I was in his position. And the Russian troops must have been informed of this informally.
Northwest Resident on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:39 am
Davy — My take on Orlov is that he is under pressure to produce articles that appeal to a certain segment of the doomer population. Scanning the internet for peak oil, economic and “doomer” related websites, I see a lot of the same sentiments that Orlov gives voice to, and those sentiments are coming from Americans living right in the midst of us. Orlov became an overnight sensation with his first book and was instantly promoted to the ranks of “peak oil experts”. He has a name that is well recognized and he probably or in fact obviously feels compelled to keep that heady buzz of “fame” going strong. To do that, he needs to come up with articles and material from time to time. He really doesn’t have anything new to say — he said it already in his book. So, like so many others, he caters to the crowd that needs constant doom and self-hate and conspiracy in their daily diet. He may or may not have bought into the ideas that he frequently expresses. Chances are, he’s just making a buck off of a bunch of suckers, just like so many other true-blue Americans are doing, laughing all the way to the bank.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:45 am
Davy, I haven’t read Dmitri much lately, I read his blog regularly for a few months some years ago, until I got bored of it. I am sorry to hear he is getting worse, most people seem to with time. I learned some lessons from him back in the days.
Northwest Resident on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 9:48 am
JuanP — I personally think your “twisted mind” is right on track. The key to understanding what REALLY happened though, I think, is to pinpoint where the decision came from that resulted in that Malaysian passenger jet flying off course over a restricted war zone. Those passenger jets are directed by traffic controllers who work under the jurisdiction of the government of the land they are flying over — in this case, Ukraine. The pilot did NOT just independently decide to take a cruise over a war zone where missile launchers are looking for targets — or, maybe he did. Inquiring minds want to know (what really happened to put that jet in harm’s way).
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 10:09 am
NR, the Malaysian did not have to route their flight by that route. Once in route they have to follow air traffic to an extent. If they are told to go higher or faster than they can they can negate that. Likewise if the pilot feels the plane is in danger he can indicate his wishes and do as he pleases. This may or may not require him to face review or in certain countries he may get shot out of the sky. I was a pilot for 10 years. My family has a jet. I know these things from actual experience. Normally there is no issue and rather routine with ATC centers and pilots. The real negligence is with the Malaysians with probably a cost saving route decision instead of a safer diverted route. This does not lessen the crime of whoever shot this plane down but it is genuine negligence on the Malaysian airliner.
NR/Juan, I am like everyone else with bias and my bias is a sensitivity to unfair US criticism. I admit guilt there. I no longer like Dimitri’s tone like some on this board. I admit to US political, military, and cultural sins but please folks be fair about it and acknowledge the rest of the world’s faults.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 10:16 am
NWR, I can give you some info on that, with the caveat that all this is unverifiable and potentially false.
There was an alleged Spanish air control operator working at Kiev’s airport control tower at that who has supposedly been fired and is back in Spain now, I think. I watched an interview in Spanish that seemed the real thing. He claims that the orders came from the Ukrainian Department of Defense. This ministry is currently in the hands of an oligarch, I forgot his name, who has been directly involved in organizing three of these new “brigades” of the Ukrainian National Guard that are said to be filled with neo Nazis and criminals, and are responsible for the vast majority of the crimes committed by Ukrainian forces this year.
This guy also claims the government removed the recordings from the control tower after the incident and that all foreign air controllers have been fired.
I have no idea if any of this is true.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 10:25 am
Davy, Yes the cheaper, shorter route was through the war zone, but planes have been mostly going around it for weeks. The airplane was supposedly rerouted midflight and told to turn North of its normal route, taking it over Donetsk instead of Crimea. This orders, supposedly, came from the Ukrainian Ministry of defense. So many unverifiable data points that it is almost impossible to discover the truth.
Arthur on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 11:06 am
The Ukrainians are doing everything they can to provoke Russia, on orders of Washington. They are indiscrimenately bombing and shelling civilians in the hope that Putin has to give in to internal pressure to come to the resque of his fellow Russians, parked in the Ukraine by Lenin. Currently there are a whopping 300,000 Donbass refugees in Russia. Hitler felt himself forced to intervene in Poland after 100,000 German refugees from Versailles Poland… and found himself trapped in a world war. Putin knows his history and tries to avoid this trap. He was against the separatist referendum and does not recognize these new republics.
J-Gav on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 11:36 am
Putin would have to be a strategic half-wit to participate (directly or indirectly) in provoking an incident that runs directly counter to Russia’s interests in the region. Not that he’s “Mr Nice Guy’ by a long shot but, personally, I don’t believe he’s that foolish.
So that leaves the rebels with their one BUK set-up but no radar back-up – considerably reducing their chances of a ‘hit,’ especially if they were as drunk as NR thinks they were … OR – the Ukrainian ‘government,’ which had several BUKs in the region replete with the accompanying radar.
The fact that it was ‘escorted’ along that route by two or three Ukrainian jets until 3 minutes before the shootdown also looks a little suspicious. Pinpointing where that decision to re-route the plane came from would further clarify things, as will, perhaps, some of the contents of those black boxes.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:08 pm
Art, If that is the case, I hope Putin doesn’t take the bait. We are at his mercy. We are lucky he is not a nutjob or a fool
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:18 pm
JGav, I’ve read all that, too, but I have doubts about the veracity of all these documents being presented by all parties on both sides of this conflict. Remember both sides are using all the propaganda tools available to them. Can you trust those radar trayectories provided by the Russians any more than the satellite ones provided by the Americans? Will all this “evidence” be made available to an independent international investigation? Is there any verifiable source and chain of evidence at all?
Having said that, if it was like that, it was a daring thing to do.
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:29 pm
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/after-delta-reroutes-flight-israel-5-other-airlines-suspend-flights-tel-aviv-missile
“About two hours ago, and in the aftermath of the public outcry regarding flights in conflict zones, first Delta then most other major international carriers announced they would suspend flights to Israel “until further notice” amid concerns that a rocket landed near Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv. The list of confirmed airlines that have halted such flights is shown below.”
This is what I am talking about. Route or reroute does not matter. The Malaysians should have been supper sensitive to safety on the heels of a recent air disaster. How could these flunkies have overlooked that the Ukraine is a war zone. The whole area should have been avoided including the Crimea.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:29 pm
JGav, The Ukrainians would have to be out of their minds to order and turn this plane midflight, tail this flight for miles with SU 25s, and then shoot it down with air or ground missiles. The Russians would have tracked everything on their radars. If they did that, these people are just plain bat shit crazy.
Please understand me, I am not saying that is not the way it happened, I don’t know how it happened.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:32 pm
Davy, We agree on the point that it was both stupid and criminally negligent to have civilian aircraft flying there. I suspect they will lose that suit. Malaysia Airlines will pay big time.
Davy on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:40 pm
If this is a false flag I am curious how the western MSM and DC mafia will back track. They have committed themselves to this story. The Russian are smart and I am sure have their details to bring to the jury. If this was a Ukrainian staged event outed with good enough evidence I would think any further support by the western powers would be complicity in the crime. Surely some kind of solid forensic evidence will surface. These days these investigative folks are really good at what they do. It will be hard to get away with a false flag IMHO. It is almost a crime that the propaganda has been ratcheted up like we see. Is this not an assault on the truth? You cannot claim guilt until guilt is proven! If it was the Russian offspring that made an error with some Russian supplied material then Putt needs a good ass chewing by the international public. This is a truly momentous event that could bring BAU down. The GP probably could give a shit but we here know how serious this is.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 12:55 pm
Davy, We all agree here on that we should punish the guilty for this atrocity.
I don’t think the MSM and DC will ever backtrack, backtracking is not an option. It will be full steam ahead no matter what. One of the reasons I see this Ukraine thing dragging on and getting worse. Like I posted above, who can be trusted to conduct an impartial investigation? What chain of evidence? This game is too big for impartiality, people will be bought, extorted, and killed if necessary to cover up this mess, no matter who is guilty. The stakes are too high. I want very much to be proven wrong on this one.
baptised on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 1:23 pm
Northeast @9.40 absolutely nailed it!!! Thank You
baptised on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 1:30 pm
Oh; This article flipped days speaking of 9.40 on Mon.21.
baptised on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 1:37 pm
Orlav goes over the line of prejudice often. BUT STICK TO THE LOGIC OF THE ARTICLE! The first thing people that cannot defeat the logic of a statement is to widen the argument to the author’s persona.
baptised on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 1:50 pm
I often wonder how many soldiers do an exhaustive, long research into if they should get behind a cause?
J-Gav on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 2:13 pm
Juan P – I don’t know what happened either – but I do smell something fishy here. The EU is going to be keeping a close eye on Washington’s next moves and may have to decide soon whether they want to keep kow-towing to the banksters, war-mongers (apparently Arthur thinks Kerry is a “leftist” – that was good for a chuckle!
As if there were no war-mongers amongst the Neo-cunts! OR, whether they might begin a step-by-step pivot to the east seeing NATO for what it is: a corrupt and bellicose machine made to order to expand instability in the regions they covet.
JuanP on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 2:42 pm
JGav, I am afraid that you may be right and Europe may be forced to make a choice between USA or Russia against its will at some point. You may be surprised or disapointed by the way things play out. I don’t see Europe winning anything in this game. I suspect nobody will win here.
As far as the smell goes, the whole thing stinks.
Northwest Resident on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 3:26 pm
“I don’t see Europe winning anything in this game.”
Europe is in a no-win situation due to the simple fact that Russia has all the oil/NG, and Europe has almost zero.
George Soros said in an interview last year that economic collapse would result in massive bloodshed in Europe, due to long-hidden ethnic and regional tensions. What we see playing out in Ukraine is probably just a small example of the horror that will envelope Europe if/when things get really tough.
Way back when the whole Ukraine fighting began, I had a strong suspicion that deeply embedded behind the scenes was a rationale — one formulated by top military and diplomatic minds — that Europe MUST integrate with Russia, like it or not. To accomplish that, it may be deemed necessary to dissipate some of those fanatical ethnic tensions in Ukraine first, before moving onto others. Just pure speculation on my part, obviously. It could all just be senseless bloodshed with no plan and no goal — but I doubt it.