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Page added on July 20, 2014
Operation Protective Edge: One Hundred Thirty Nine Square Miles of Sand, Part I
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| Operation Protective Edge, 2014 |
Events in Gaza fill us with deep sadness. We have friends in both Israel and Palestine who are swept into this conflict without wanting it. To them, as to us, it seems a doorless, windowless room. There is no escape, no illumination, no good reason for being there and no way to leave.
To get out of this room, we have to understand how it was built and why it is here. We have to cut a window to let some light in, and then build a door from the inside out.
When we first visited Israel, in the summer of 1991, Gaza City was much like the other ocean-front cities of the Mediterranean — stone buildings and winding streets, a long seawall, lovely beaches. Even though it had just been through the 1987 Intifada, it retained the charm of Jappa and Haifa. Fishermen gathered before dawn and shoved out with the tide, returning at midday with their catches. Shopkeepers sold antiques and fine needlework from stores below their homes. Apart from the tanks, barbed wire and ubiquitous IDF soldiers, Gaza Beach was a tranquil paradise.
In 1991 a young guard assigned to the Gaza Beach internment camp wrote for The New York Review of Books, “One day, if there is a state called Palestine, its government will no doubt lease this piece of ground to some international entrepreneur who would set up a Club Med Gaza Beach.”
In 1948, Gaza City, and the “Gaza Strip” became the refuge of people fleeing war after their homes, olive groves, barns and villages were destroyed, their cattle and goats machine-gunned, and their water, sewage and electricity cut off. Then, in 1967, tanks arrived at the beach, and there was nowhere left to flee. Some lucky enough to escape went to Egypt, and when Egyptians were no longer willing to feed, house or employ the growing tide of refugees, they closed the border. Even then, Gazans dug long tunnels, or tried to cross by boat.
In 1991 that young Israeli prison guard wrote:
In Gaza it’s all straightforward and clear. There’s no place to hide. And I think: What if someone were to sneak a hidden camera in here? If only Robert Capa were alive. If only Claude Lanzmann were to make a film here. He would see a bored soldier who sits and solves crossword puzzles chewing on his pencil, under the apparently innocent sign: “Compound Number 1,” while another soldier, one or our charming Sabra types, a youth from a Tel Aviv suburb, walks around with a wreath of handcuffs over his shoulder.
Then he might turn his camera on the forty-one prisoners whom we shove into the narrow filthy detention cell in the government building in Gaza. They are awaiting trial. Because they have no room to move, because they are squeezed one against the other from morning until noon like cattle, they press ever more tightly up against the bars on the door to the detention cell so as to gulp in a little air. And because the door is too narrow for them all, some collapse, and some crawl under the legs of others. And the seven or eight who are caught on the bars appear, without intending or knowing it, as a kind of living statue, a mute poster of protest against imprisonment and oppression.
In that summer of 1991, near Dagania, the first kibbutz (1909), we laid wildflowers on the tomb of Theodor Herzl, the conceiver of Israel, and placed a small stone on the grave of Rachel, the country’s first Poet Laureate. We walked with elderly IDF veterans to see the foxholes they had dug at the Jordan River in May of 1948. We immersed ourselves in the history of this place, visiting the chapel on the Mount of Olives and the archaeological dig at Capernaum. We stood upon the rock from which the young Jesus of Nazareth was said to hail the fishermen in the Sea of Galilee, telling them to cast their net on the other side of the boat.
Back in 1894, a Jewish lieutenant in the French Army, Alfred Dreyfus, was tried for treason. He was wrongfully accused, which soon became apparent, but with the anti-Semitic right-wing having taken power in Paris, and the French public inflamed, the Army feared public accusations of Jewish favoritism if Dreyfus was tried and acquitted. Dreyfus was scapegoated — summarily convicted and sentenced to prison.
In Paris to cover the trial for the Vienna News Free Press, Theodor Herzl was shocked at the open anti-Semitism he witnessed. If anti-Semitism could flourish in the most tolerant and progressive country in Europe, Herzl reasoned, Jews would only be safe in their own state. If they had to design a nation, what might it look like? Herzl imagined a socialist paradise — no poor, no ruling class, food and shelter for everyone. He wrote a bestselling book, The Jewish State, promoting his ideas, which eventually went viral as Zionism. Herzl’s reaction to the right wing excesses in France gave birth, half a century later, to the utopian dream of Israel.
In the late 19th century, facing growing persecution in Eastern Europe and pogroms in Russia, Jews began flowing to Palestine for refuge. Near Jaffa an agricultural school, the Mikveh Israel, was founded. Russian Jews established the Bilu and Hovevei Zion (“Love of Zion”) movements to assist settlers, who created self-reliant experimental agricultural communes that sought to get beyond the utopian “Holy Cities” of the Ashkenazi-Jews and not rely on donations from Europe.
The hardy arrivals, mostly from Russia — the First Aliyah, some 35,000 between 1882 and 1903 — revived the Hebrew language, developed drip irrigation, and greened the desert. They blended into and got along with the complex mix of Druze, Bedouin and Christian and Muslim Arabs. By 1890, Jews were a majority in Jerusalem. In 1909 residents of Jaffa established the first entirely Hebrew-speaking city, Ahuzat Bayit (later renamed Tel Aviv).
We have previously written of the seminal role of Lady Evelyn Balfour in the creation of organic gardening and the founding of the first Soil Association. We have not previously mentioned her very interesting uncle, Arthur James, First Earl of Balfour, British Prime Minister from 1902 to 1905.
Lord Balfour is also known for his noble mien — the Balfourian manner. A journalist of his time described it this way:
“This Balfourian manner, as I understand it, has its roots in an attitude of mind—an attitude of convinced superiority which insists in the first place on complete detachment from the enthusiasms of the human race, and in the second place on keeping the vulgar world at arm’s length. It is an attitude of mind … of one who desires rather to observe the world than to shoulder any of its burdens.”
“The truth about Arthur Balfour,” said George Wyndham, “is this: he knows there’s been one ice-age, and he thinks there’s going to be another.”
We are fond of Balfour, not just because he was apparently a protocollapsenik, but also because in his later years he argued that Darwin’s premise of selection for reproductive fitness cast doubt on scientific naturalism — the belief that there are no supernatural entities or processes — because human cognitive facilities that would accurately perceive truth would be at a disadvantage against competing humans genetically selecting for evolutionarily useful illusions.
While Balfour tilted towards the supernatural as a boon to humanity, his thesis goes a long way to explain the great smoldering track of the Advertising Age through our species’ inate common sense and our presently diminished capacity to survive the coming Anthropocene extinction.
Long evolved discriminatory abilities that assisted distant future pattern recognition and might have helped our survival are being bred out by twerking, gangsta rap, and The Shopping Network, leaving only the comfort of our illusions.
Despite his belief in the futility of action, Balfour, in his manner, could not resist the urge to meddle in world affairs. Like a child with an anthill and a magnifying glass on a sunny day he found special interest in Zionists. Meeting Chaim Weizmann, a wealthy British Zionist, in 1906, Balfour asked Weizmann what he thought of the idea of a Jewish homeland in Uganda, a British Protectorate.
According to Weizmann’s memoir, the conversation went as follows:
“Mr. Balfour, supposing I was to offer you Paris instead of London, would you take it?” He sat up, looked at me, and answered: “But Dr. Weizmann, we have London.” “That is true,” I said, “but we had Jerusalem when London was a marsh.” He … said two things which I remember vividly. The first was: “Are there many Jews who think like you?” I answered: “I believe I speak the mind of millions of Jews whom you will never see and who cannot speak for themselves.” … To this he said: “If that is so you will one day be a force.” (Weizmann, Trial and Error, p.111, as quoted in W. Lacquer, The History of Zionism, 2003, p.188).
Flash forward 8 years to November, 1914 and the retired Prime Minister is now British Foreign Secretary as his country is at war with the Ottoman Empire over oil and the Berlin-to-Baghdad railroad. A fellow cabinet official, Herbert Samuel, circulates a memorandum entitled “The Future of Palestine” to his colleagues. The memorandum begins with “I am assured that the solution of the problem of Palestine which would be much the most welcome to the leaders and supporters of the Zionist movement throughout the world would be the annexation of the country to the British Empire.”
This prompted a letter* from Alfred, First Earl Balfour to Walter, Second Baron Rothschild, a prominent funder of the first kibbutzim. Balfour wrote:
“His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
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| Mosul-Haifa pipeline reaches the coast in 1938 |
The overarching aim of Balfour was to gain support of both the Americans and the Bolsheviks for British aims in the Middle East. The Transjordan coast was strategically important as a check to Egypt at the Suez Canal, and there were already thoughts of a Mosul-Haifa pipeline to transport oil from Kirkuk. Two of President Woodrow Wilson’s closest advisors, Louis Brandeis and Felix Frankfurter, were avid Zionists. Several of the most prominent Russian revolutionaries, including Leon Trotsky, were also. The Foreign Secretary wanted to keep both the USA and Russia in the war and used the potential separation of a Zionist state from Transjordan as bait.
“The gradual growth of considerable Jewish community, under British suzerainty, in Palestine will not solve the Jewish question in Europe. A country the size of Wales, much of it barren mountain and part of it waterless, cannot hold 9,000,000 people. But it could probably hold in time 3,000,000 or 4,000,000, and some relief would be given to the pressure in Russia and elsewhere. Far more important would be the effect upon the character of the larger part of the Jewish race who must still remain intermingled with other peoples, to be a strength or to be a weakness to the countries in which they live. Let a Jewish centre be established in Palestine; let it achieve, as I believe it would achieve, a spiritual and intellectual greatness; and insensibly, but inevitably, the character of the individual Jew, wherever he might be, would be ennobled. The sordid associations which have attached to the Jewish name would be sloughed off, and the value of the Jews as an element in the civilisation of the European peoples would be enhanced.
“The Jewish brain is a physiological product not to be despised. For fifteen centuries the race produced in Palestine a constant succession of great men – statesmen and prophets, judges and soldiers. If a body be again given in which its soul can lodge, it may again enrich the world.”
In November 1918 the large group of Palestinian Arab dignitaries and representatives of political associations forwarded a petition to the British authorities in which they decried the hubris of the declaration. The document stated:
“[W]e always sympathized profoundly with the persecuted Jews and their misfortunes in other countries… but there is wide difference between such sympathy and the acceptance of such a nation… ruling over us and disposing of our affairs.”
Winston Churchill sided with the Arabs, saying in 1922, “I do not attach undue importance to this [Zionist] movement, but it is increasingly difficult to meet the argument that it is unfair to ask the British taxpayer, already overwhelmed with taxation, to bear the cost of imposing on Palestine an unpopular policy.
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| Arthur Balfour and his Declaration |
The British Mandate of Palestine was confirmed by the League of Nations in 1922 and came into effect in 1923. The boundaries of Palestine initially included modern Jordan, which was removed from the territory by Churchill a few years later. The United States, whose Senate refused to join Wilson’s League of Nations, signed a separate endorsement treaty.
Between 1919 and 1923, 40,000 Jews arrived in Palestine, mainly escaping the post-revolutionary chaos of Russia and Ukraine (the Third Aliyah) where over 100,000 Jews had been massacred. These immigrants were called halutzim (pioneers) because they were experienced in agriculture and quick to establish self-sustaining frontier towns. The Jezreel Valley and the Hefer Plain marshes were purchased through foreign donations, drained and converted to agricultural settlements. A socialist underground militia, the Haganah (“defense”) sprang up to defend outlying the outlying settlements.
Despite Palestinian Arab rioting in 1920 and 1922, 82,000 more Jewish refugees had arrived by 1929 (the Fourth Aliyah), fleeing pogroms in Poland and Hungary and rebuffed by the anti-Semitic United States Immigration Act of 1924.
The British governors of Palestine rejected the principle of majority rule or any other measure that would give the Arab population, who formed the majority, control over Jewish territory. The United States, whose strategic objective (oft quoted by comedian Robert Newman in A History of Oil) was “to bring democracy to the Middle East,” supported this policy, and still supports it today.
Following World War II, oil interests in the Middle East tilted western allies towards the Arabs. In an effort to win independence, underground Jewish militias waged a guerrilla war against the British. From 1929 to 1945, 110,000 Jews entered Palestine illegally (Bet Aliyah). Between 1945 and 1948, 250,000 Holocaust surviving Jews left Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia for refuge in Palestine. Most of these refugees were intercepted by the British and interred in squalid camps in Cyprus. Finally, under pressure from their Arab oil partners, the British had enough, and referred the whole matter to the United Nations.
The UN, looking at the status quo on the ground, drew this map, which is probably the worst partition ever conceived.
On November 29, 1947, in Resolution 181 (II), the UN General Assembly recommended a plan to replace the British Mandate with separate “Independent Arab and Jewish States” and a “Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem administered by the United Nations.”
Neither Britain nor the UN took any action to implement the resolution and Britain continued detaining Jews attempting to enter Palestine. The British withdrew forces in May 1948, but continued to hold Jews of “fighting age” and their families on Cyprus until March 1949, anticipating what was about to happen.
What was about to happen was the delivery of the promised utopia to the Jews and a catastrophe for the Palestinians.
To be continued
37 Comments on "Operation Protective Edge: One Hundred Thirty Nine Square Miles of Sand, Part I"
Plantagenet on Sun, 20th Jul 2014 4:35 pm
As the article notes, Gaza was a pleasant place under Israeli rule, but has become a hellish little totalitarian state since the israelis withdraw, and Hamas took over and imposed Sharia law there.
bobinget on Sun, 20th Jul 2014 7:46 pm
a little FAQ :
http://www.dw.de/the-gaza-conflict-faq/a-17781779
European POV (German)
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 5:24 am
What this article fails to mention is that Balfour did not give away Palestine out of goodwill. The price was that Weizmann, Brandeis and Frankfurter would exert pressure on Wilson to join the war against Germany, that until then had the upperhand. The Lusitania was the pretext, but the Balfour deal the real thing. The founding of the Federal Reserve as well as US war entry were the first two clear signs of the rise of the Jews in the US. Other subsequent highlights of Jewish power were bringing about WW2 via paid stooge Churchill, the killing of JFK, the opening of US borders for mass immigration from the third world in 1965 (which will make the US impotent in the long run), the 9/11 false flag operation and every war since. Today the Applebaums and Kerrys of this world try to kick off WW3, after what was almost certainly a false flag operation mh17 by Kiev, in coordination with Washington.
paulo1 on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 8:37 am
re: “after what was almost certainly a false flag operation mh17 by Kiev”
I think you have a bit of bias in your opinions, Art. Let’s wait a few days and see what the investigators say….maybe there will be a Dutch or German report which will be more acceptable to you.
Do people really believe all politicians want war…let alone one with Russia? I don’t think armies would be able to be filled by a weary and cynical public. Too many nukes in that part of the world to let this continue.
This has to cool down or we are fu&*ed.
Best hopes for a stepping back and reasoned appraisal. It is time for real leaders and real statesmenship.
Paulo
JuanP on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 9:20 am
Paulo, I have to admit that I suspect this to be a false flag operation, too, and I really, really don’t wan’t to believe this because it has such terrible implications.
Not all politicians want war, but some do, and they almost without exception take money from the MIC, which wants continuous multiple wars and conflicts
I don’t think anyone will ever be able to prove anything either way on either side. This will become a propaganda event, more than anything else, with both sides lying uninterruptedly.
This is not about invading armies. There will be no troops openly deployed, only covert ops. There is no need for the US army to get involved. The strategic goal here is not to invade and occupy any country, it is to weaken, break, and destroy Russia. And, yes, we are fu@&ed.
By the time this incident occurred I had been expecting a big false flag operation in Ukraine for a couple of weeks. I hate how I see this and I wish I didn’t see it this way.
IMHO, Ukraine is a fast collapsing failed state, and if I lived there I would get out ASAP.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 10:00 am
Juan, I am open to a false flag. I am objective with my countries leadership. I want truth not comfort of being in the right. If this is a false flag then the other side is doing a miserable job addressing this. In any case Putt and his offspring have lost the propaganda battle to the western NWO mafia. World sentiment is fully with the west with important implication for Russia. I am with you and Paulo this may be what was needed to calm this festering global crisis. We should not have two adversaries with multiple MAD WMD’ facing off, especially so close to Russian borders.
JuanP on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 10:18 am
Davy, I hate putting ideas like these in other people’s minds, I think I am doing you guys a disservice by sharing them, to be honest. But this forum is the only place where I feel I can openly express myself these days, and I need that. I agree that world opinion is turning against Russia, and I think that would make this a very successful false flag op. This is a lose lose situation for Putin and Russia.
I think the USA was always way better than the Russians at propaganda, among other things, and we still are. The Russians lose the propaganda war 10 to 1, easy.
If this crisis in Ukraine continues escalating, as I fear, the poor innocent people there face the winter of their lives. My heart goes out to them.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 11:25 am
Yeap, Juan, I am here so much for two primary reasons first The end is near, BAU that is and like you I have ideas only people here share. I also agree Juan Putt’s strength will show this winter. He is one of the most able statesmen I have seen forget good or bad, he is effective. You have to remember this guy is a decorated judo student. Read about judo to understand Putt.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 11:38 am
No investigation, no facts, no truth. In the meantime there is a relentless barrage of media reports here in NA, pointing to Putin as the sole perpetrator. The NWO oligarchs are winning, and anyone that thinks that they have our best interests at heart, needs to give their head a shake.
The world should be demanding an unbiased, truthful investigation. The fact that that will never happen, should be extreme cause for concern. I am afraid that we are too far gone. The sheeple are being lead to their own slaughter, and the few left among us that are still capable of rational thought, will be dragged kicking and screaming along with them.
This will not end with the crisis in Ukraine, my heart goes out to each and every one of us.
JuanP on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 11:47 am
Davy, I was thinking more of Ukraine’s weaknesses than any Russian strength, but, yes, the winter has always favored Russia at home as Napoleon and the Nazis found out, and this could become another example.
Putin is a judoka and a former KGB agent, and not to be messed with lightly, IMHO. I consider him, for good or bad, to be one of the most effective leaders in the world in spite of an excessive sensitivity to criticism he has exhibited in the past. It doesn’t take much to reach that position these days, what with the competition being what it is and what not.
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 12:05 pm
The two black boxes will go to Maleisia, which is good. Crucial are the recordings of the last minute conversation between mh17 pilots and Borispol ATC. My prediction: ‘ get the f@ck these fighter aircraft away, they draw fire!…bam’
The very fact that the Ukr secret service confiscated the recordings from Borispol ATC, tells me enough.
Meanwhile the EU is suspiciously silent. I think they know the likely truth and are completely embarrassed with their new found friends.
Davy on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 12:24 pm
Juan, great point with the Russian winter favoring Russia. You are right that this is likely to happen again. I have seen documentaries on Putin. He trusts few people. You are right he is very sensitive to critisim per this documentary. Art, thanks for the real scoop on what is going on. In your opinion if a red flag is exposed what could unfold with the west and Ukraine? Greg, you are probably right but the NWO folks time will come. Nature bats last.
JuanP on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 1:13 pm
Davy, Putin doesn’t betray much and keeps his cards, thoughts, and opinions to himself. He is not a trusting person. He is very hard to figure out, so that made me curious about him since I first heard about him. He is also a good poker and chess player, I’ve read.
The one weakness I have been able to perceive in him is that continued excessive sensitivity to criticism, which, IMHO, is symptomatic of some deeper psychological or character flaw. He can control it, though, and himself. He is not the type to make a decision without thinking things through first. He has a cold, calculating nature or, if you want to be more friendly towards him, a pragmatic and analytical mind.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 1:39 pm
Prime Minister Stephen Harper,
Canada will impose sanctions on a broad range of entities related to various Russian industries in response to action in Ukraine and to the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner over eastern Ukraine, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Monday.
The decision to go after entire sectors was taken in tandem with international partners for rapid implementation and maximum effect, he said.”The outrageous and criminal act of shooting down a civilian airliner last week is a direct product of Russia’s military aggression and illegal occupation of Ukraine, and demonstrates the need for the international community to continue applying pressure on the Putin regime,” Harper said in a statement.
“We call on (Russian) President (Vladimir) Putin to immediately order a withdrawal of his troops from the Ukrainian border, to stop the flow of weapons and militants into Ukraine, and to use Russia’s influence to persuade insurgents to lay down their weapons,” he said.
“It is also imperative that investigators be given full, unimpeded access to the crash site of the downed Malaysian airliner.”
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 1:40 pm
Obama,
Now, international investigators are on the ground. They have been organized. I’ve sent teams. Other countries have sent teams. They are prepared. They are organized to conduct what should be the kinds of protocols and scouring and collecting of evidence that should follow any international incident like this. And what they need right now is immediate and full access to the crash site. They need to be able to conduct a prompt and full and unimpeded as well as transparent investigation. And recovery personnel have to do the solemn and sacred work of recovering the remains of those who were lost.
Ukrainian President Poroshenko has declared a demilitarized zone around the crash site. As I’ve said before, you have international teams already in place prepared to conduct the investigation and recover the remains of those who have been lost. But unfortunately, the Russian-backed separatists who control the area continue to block the investigation. They have repeatedly prevented international investigators from gaining full access to the wreckage. As investigators approached, they fired their weapons into the air. The separatists are removing evidence from the crash site, all of which begs the question, what exactly are they trying to hide? Moreover, these Russian-backed separatists are removing bodies from the crash site, oftentimes without the care that we would normally expect from a tragedy like this. And this is an insult to those who’ve lost loved ones. It’s the kind of behavior that has no place in the community of nations.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 1:41 pm
PRIME MINISTER NAJIB RAZAK STATEMENT ON MH17 AGREEMENT
In recent days, we have been working behind the scenes to establish contact with those in charge of the MH17 crash site.
That contact has now been made. Under difficult and fluid circumstances, we have been discussing the problems that have occupied us all: securing vital evidence from the aircraft, launching an independent investigation, and above all recovering the remains of those who lost their lives.
Tonight, we have established the basis of an agreement to do just that.
Earlier this evening I spoke to Alexander Borodai, who is in command of the region where the tragedy occurred. We have agreed the following:
· Firstly, the remains of 282 people, currently in Torez, will be moved by train to Kharkiv, where they will be handed over to representatives from the Netherlands. The train will depart this evening Ukraine time, and will be accompanied by six Malaysian members of the recovery team. The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam on board a Dutch C130 Hercules, together with the Malaysian team. Following any necessary forensic work, the remains of Malaysian citizens will then be flown home to Malaysia.
· Secondly, at approximately 9pm tonight Ukraine time, the two black boxes will be handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk, who will take custody of them.
· Thirdly, independent international investigators will be guaranteed safe access to the crash site to begin a full investigation of the incident.
I must stress that although agreement has been reached, there remain a number of steps required before it is completed.
There is work still to be done, work which relies on continued communication in good faith. Mr Borodai and his people have so far given their co-operation.
I ask that all parties continue to work together to ensure that this agreement is honoured; that the remains of our people are returned, that the black box is handed over, and that the international team is granted full access to the site.
Only then can the investigation into MH17 truly begin; only then can the victims be afforded the respect they deserve. We need to know what caused the plane to crash, and who was responsible for it, so that justice may be done.
In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel. And that I feel. But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome.
I understand that for the families, nothing can undo this damage. The lives taken cannot be given back; the dignity lost cannot be regained.
My heart reaches out to those whose loved ones were lost on MH17. We hope and pray that the agreement reached tonight helps bring them a clear step towards closure.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 1:47 pm
Oh,
And all three statements were made within two hours of each other. Today.
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 2:01 pm
Don’t understand why they take the difficult route to Kharkov, via Donetsk. Donetsk station was the scene of heavy fighting today. Why not simply pop over the border with Russia?
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 2:12 pm
Arthur,
It appears to me at least, that the Ukrainian so called ‘rebels’ want an independent and unbiased investigation. The Malaysian Prime Minister appears to be seeking the truth. Western governments are already calling for even more sanctions on Russia, before the investigation has even begun.
Just watched the ‘news’ here, and they are still reporting that bodies are being taken by pro-russian separatists, and that nobody knows where they are, or where they are being taken to.
Funny how a 2 second internet search reveals more information than our multi-billion dollar media industry is able to uncover. I wonder why that is?
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 2:21 pm
The bodies were reasonable treated and all put in cooled railway carriages. The train is now underway, together with forensic experts, who said on location for Dutch television the bodies are in good condition and identification should not be a problem in most cases. Meanwhile rebels have announced full cooperation with the Dutch. The Dutch are even allowed to bring armed military men to protect the experts. This all happened no doubt on pressure of Wlad, who is under heave international pressure. I have some confidence that the truth will come out after inspection of the wrevkage and black boxes.
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 2:21 pm
The bodies were reasonable treated and all put in cooled railway carriages. The train is now underway, together with forensic experts, who said on location for Dutch television the bodies are in good condition and identification should not be a problem in most cases. Meanwhile rebels have announced full cooperation with the Dutch. The Dutch are even allowed to bring armed military men to protect the experts. This all happened no doubt on pressure of Wlad, who is under heave international pressure. I have some confidence that the truth will come out after inspection of the wrevkage and black boxes.
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 2:37 pm
Arthur,
Hopefully the truth does come out, those responsible need to be brought to justice, no matter who they turn out to be.
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 2:56 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/KiritRadia/status/491278428642246656/photo/1
First aerial view crash site I am aware off.
Arthur on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 3:19 pm
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.nl/2014/07/the-russian-military-finally-speaks.html
Russian press conference plus short English summary. Gist: there was a Ukr fighter jet ascending towards the plane, until mh17 disappeared from the radar.
Comments sections in blogs and twitter are excellent sources of information these days, making a mockery of the MSM.
J-Gav on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 4:15 pm
Plant – “Gaza was a pleasant place under Israeli rule.” What planet do you live on dude?
Do you know nothing of even recent history? Are you a simpleton or just pretending to be one? Don’t remember the trumped up 1967 war? Don’t remember the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty (34 dead, 171 wounded) during that ‘war?’
2008 wouldn’t even ring the faintest bell for someone like you, would it? Operation Cast Lead invaion of Gaza (otherwise know as the Gaza Massacre) where 1400 of them died vs 13 Israelis.
Get a life, man! Read Shlomo Sand and Miko Peled for a little info rather than spouting inanities.
Northwest Resident on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 4:26 pm
J-Gav — The article did give somewhat of a “charming” description of Gaza, except for the tanks and armed guards with machine guns of course. And not mentioned in the article would be all the deathly stares from Gaza residents who would slit your throat in a second were it not for said armed guards and tanks. But other than that, yes, a truly pleasant place.
J-Gav on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 4:27 pm
As for Putin, Juan P put it pretty well.
Concerning the aircraft downing, so far, the indications point to a ‘rebel mistake.’ That’s possible. As for any Russian contribution, I’m skeptical, however.
Those BUK anti-aircraft batteries are identical whether under Kiev’s command or the rebels’. Though Kiev forces would necessarily be more competent in their usage. Unless the Russians intervened on the ‘rebels’ side.
My question is, who has the absolute LEAST interest in provoking an incident of this sort? The answer is clearly – Russia. Up to now, Putin’s strategy has been superior to NATO’s. This has got the international media machine demanding reparations from Putin! We’ll see – prove it! I remember how Sadam Hussein had so many weapons of mass destruction, see what I mean?
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 4:38 pm
Thanks for the info Arthur,
It does appear now that it was Kiev that brought flight MH17 down. However, unless the MSM here reports otherwise, the vast majority of people are completely convinced that it was the rebels in eastern Ukraine with the help of Putin’s Russia. The damage has already been done. Further sanctions have been imposed against the Russians, and further support has been garnered for the western installed regime in Kiev. Will the truth ever come out here in Canada? Again, I certainly hope so, but I am not going to hold my breath.
Also, not sure of the validity of the reports, I’ll need to dig deeper, but I have heard that the plans are for Royal Dutch Shell to frak in the Donetsk region, and have also read that there are plans to dispose of European nuclear waste in or around the Chernobyl area, both in exchange for an IMF bailout.
Another victory for TPTB? Or not?
Northwest Resident on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 4:51 pm
This whole end of the oil age and economic collapse thing is going to get really, really nasty. Isn’t it?
J-Gav on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 5:16 pm
NW – I’d say that’s pretty much a foregone conclusion, though I’ve almost given up on convincing most (not all) people I know that such is the case. Too much for them, which I can also understand …
paulo1 on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 6:26 pm
Whoever it is who brought down the plane, and not just conjecture, loses. It is that simple.
Just an aside, for such a polarizing topic this discusssion was surprisingly civil and polite. I really enjoyed these comments and feel more informed for the experience.
Paulo
GregT on Mon, 21st Jul 2014 7:55 pm
Just watched the evening news. No mention what so ever of the Malaysian PM press release, no mention of Arthur’s Dutch news, no mention of anything even remotely resembling the truth.
This is a propaganda war people, the west wants Russia, and they will do everything in their power to bring Russia down.
You are correct NWR, things are going to get really nasty. We ain’t seen nothing yet.
Arthur on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 6:23 am
@Greg:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-ukraine-crisis-recovery-idUSKBN0FQ14Q20140721
GregT on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 10:05 pm
Arthur,
Yes, that is exactly the news that I have been reading on the internet. The message being conveyed by our MSM is exactly the opposite. Everyone that I talk to is horrified by the mistreatment of the remains. People are calling for blood in both the Ukraine and in Russia.
We are being fed blatant lies and propaganda.
Northwest Resident on Tue, 22nd Jul 2014 11:35 pm
US State Department “Confident” MH17 “Mistakenly” Downed By Separatists, Finds No Direct Link To Russia
Senior U.S. intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack
With a somewhat shocking lack of evidence, AP reports that US officials (on condition of anonymity) have stated that intelligence suggests Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was mistakenly shot down by separatists and can find no link to Russia.
zerohedge dot com/news/2014-07-22/us-state-department-confident-mh17-mistakenly-downed-separatists-finds-no-direct-lin
But no mention of WHY was the Malaysian jetliner flying over a war zone. Who screwed up big time? And when do we get to see his head on a silver platter?
Arthur on Wed, 23rd Jul 2014 1:22 am
NWR, indeed. The west is backtracking and afraid of what the inquiry will reveal. It is very important that the US so far has NOT denied Russian data, that a Ukr fighter jet was trailing mh17. It was likely an action by rogue elements. This mysterious Spanish flight controller Carlos Buca spoke of the interior ministry being behind the operation:
http://twitter.com/wmiddelkoop/status/491728828826664960/photo/1
Arthur on Wed, 23rd Jul 2014 1:29 am
“But no mention of WHY was the Malaysian jetliner flying over a war zone. ”
The answer is that normally mh17 had never flown over the war zone, but was told do to so by ATC Borispol… straight into its demise:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-ordered-to-fly-over-the-east-ukraine-warzone/5392540