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Page added on September 7, 2015
Kunstler: There Goes Europe
The desperate wish in what is loosely called the West to at least appear morally correct is unfortunately over-matched by the desperation of people fleeing unstable, overpopulated places outside the West, and it is a fiasco beyond even the events of the moment.
The refugee / immigrant crisis around the Mediterranean is a preview of a horror show to which there is no end in sight, and is certain to escalate. So anyone who indulges in fantasies about organizing an orderly, rational distribution of displaced persons for the current wave, is badly missing the point. Wave beyond wave awaits after the this one. And then what will the well-intentioned sentimentalists say? We wanted to do the right thing… we meant well… we cried when we saw the little boy dead on the beach….
Yes, the tragic intrusions of the US military in Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Syria, and elsewhere have been reckless and stupid. But that is not the whole story. The desert nations of the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) have populations abnormally swollen by a century of oil-and-gas-based agriculture, really by the benefits of Modernity in general. Now that the oil age is chugging to an unruly crack-up, and Modernity with it, and the earth’s climate is doing wonky things, and the rich nations to the north have faked their finances to the point of bankruptcy, well, circumstances have changed.
In the years ahead, populations will be fleeing and shifting from many more unfavorable corners of the world. The pressures are mounting all over. Alas, the richer nations in which the fleeing poor aspire to gain a foothold, will also be contending with the disabling effects of a universal economic contraction — the winding down of the techno-industrial system and the global economy with it. That process has the potential to shatter political unions, overthrow established social orders, and provoke wars between the demoralized countries who still possess dangerous military hardware. At the least, it will produce economic conditions in Europe and North America probably worse than the Great Depression of the 1930s.
So, the idea that the nations currently bethinking themselves “rich” can take in, shelter, and employ the masses fleeing MENA (and elsewhere) is absurd. Somehow the people in charge, plus the intellectual classes who shape opinion and consensus, are going to have to arrive at some clear notion of limits and boundaries. It is actually happening in parts of Europe right now, extempore, where the immediate crisis is worst, for the moment in Italy, Greece, and Hungary — which first interned the refugees and then let them loose on the road to Vienna, probably only a way-station to Germany. Soon all nations across Europe will be agonizing, shucking, jiving, or improvising some sort of desperate response.
Among other confusions of policy and intention, the public “debate” so far does not make any distinction between true political refugees fleeing for their lives or economic migrants seeking to improve their prospects elsewhere. It is surely easy to empathize with both categories of persons, but that doesn’t mean you give up the control of your borders just to make yourself feel better. That is pretty much what has happened in the USA, where the Left, for political expediency, has deemed it indecent to call “illegal” immigrants what they are, and the Right has just been pusillanimous and hypocritical about it. Hence the unfiltered persona of Trump who, for all his titanic shortcomings, has at least managed to make his rivals look like the craven midgets they are.
Likewise, the rise of Marine LePen in France, Geert Wilders in Holland, and other parties seeking limits to immigration, perhaps even deportations. Personally, I reject the idea that it’s “racist” to want to preserve one’s national culture and character (especially in language), or to favor bona fide citizens for gainful employment. Europe has the additional obvious problem of an immigrant Islamic population overtly hostile to European culture and tradition. Why is it morally imperative for Europeans to countenance what amounts to low-grade warfare?
The situation that smoldered for decades is now exploding. Don’t expect to see any end to desperation and instability in MENA, but do expect new demographic crises out of other regions: Indonesia, Ukraine, Pakistan, West Africa, and Brazil, with its cratering economy. It’s not inconceivable that China might bust apart politically, with centrifugal consequences. The global economy is contracting. We have indeed attained the limits to growth. Cheap oil is bygone and the capital infrastructure we have won’t run on expensive oil — including the oil industry itself. New technology or further central bank legerdemain is not going to fix that. We’re in population overshoot and a scramble is underway to bail on the places that just can’t support the people who live there. National boundaries will be defended. Sentimentalists will have to step aside. History is not a bedtime story about bunnies and kittens.
96 Comments on "Kunstler: There Goes Europe"
Makati1 on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 7:17 am
I would suggest that all of the countries send their refugees to Brussels as fast as possible. Let those arrogant puffballs who are causing it, deal with it.
Hello on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 7:37 am
For once I agree with Kunstler.
There is surely no man more stupid than white man.
Importing 3rd world hordes by the boat load is an invitation for trouble.
Davy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 8:15 am
it will be interesting to see what happens to the vast open spaces of Russia’s Far East when the Chinese hords head north. What can the Russians do China and Russia are best of friends now. The Chinese cannot head south because there is nowhere to go south in Asia from China unless that is they practice the genocide Asia is known for.
noobtube on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 9:42 am
Does this guy really believe the crap he writes?
So, Europe, which has zero/few natural resources, is some great destination for mankind?
The West (aka “The Waste”) is some savior for the world?
It is these cocksuckers that are destroying the very places these refugees are fleeing.
“The Waste” (oops, I meant the West) destroyed functioning states in Libya, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Mexico, and on and on… to steal all their resources so “The Waste” (there I go again, I meant the West) can have their fancy, luxury, cars; private jets; Mansions; cheap Chinese goods; Hollywood fantasies where Americans always save the day; and of course, a massive, bloated, ineffective military that terrorizes everyone on this planet.
Yeah, the West is just so great for humanity. What would the world do without them?
Well, for one, the world would be a much cleaner, safer, and prosperous place without the parasite/leeches from “the Waste” (did it again, I mean the West).
j.fradgley on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 9:53 am
Why is Davy talking about Asia… Yes China is fucked, so is everyone… So… Your point? Hi noobtube, I’ve missed your rants babes 😉 Feel me all over x
MSN Fanboy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 9:55 am
GAY! Alert! Gay Alert!
Davy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 9:55 am
Noob, where the hell have you been it has been 6 months or more since I whiffed your foul smell.
Davy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:02 am
Hey J, Davy here, why don’t you ask me? Are you afraid of a conversation?
You have not been around long enough to know the dynamics of the US expat that preaches a daily agenda of Anti-Americanism and Asiaphila and my counter arguments of
“Yes China is fucked, so is everyone… So… Your point?”.
You sound like another numb nut come in with the Noob. If you want a rant give me a little background on your dumb ass.
penury on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:02 am
I would not disagree with people pointing fingers about the cause of the problem But I feel that there are other reasons for this migration and for the next wave which will be even more of a problem. What will we do with the migrants from Calif? Oregon is already flush with real estate signs saying “no Californians” Brazil, Chile, Argentina may be added to the current source of most U.S. (what ever term is politically correct for you) incoming.
If the drought continues in the West we could have migrations from most of the S. West. states. I cannot see how any nation can acce3pt the sheer numbers of humans who will or are on the march. Yes, we created a lot of this mess, but we do not have the means, or the will to solve this predicament. Thus the fall back option as always:WAR.
Davy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:03 am
MsN, where have you been? Good to hear from you.
BobInget on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:04 am
World War Metastasizes, Minute by Hour
With forty nations deeply involved, most deny such a world wars existence. Let me explain.
Most people have no idea Russia and Iran have been sponsoring Syria’s president Assad in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia and the US in opposition. For the last five years half of Syria’s
22 million population have either been killed, displaced internally or migrated. Last week
because the flood of refugees overwhelmed,
Europeans, after five years, noticed.
As regular readers know Russia is expanding its
role in Syria with additional weapons and troops.
With Russia and Iran on one side and Saudi Arabia, France, UK, Iraq, on another,
‘What could go wrong?’
ANKARA/LONDON, Sept 5 (Reuters) – Britain moved closer to military action in Syria as a senior minister on Saturday said Europe’s migration crisis had to be tackled at its source and a newspaper said a parliamentary vote on bombing Islamic State militants in Syria could take place next month.
Finance minister George Osborne said Britain and Europe had to find a way to tackle the conflict in Syria as well as provide asylum to those genuinely fleeing persecution.
“You’ve got to deal with the problem at source, which is this evil Assad regime and the ISIL (Islamic State) terrorists, and you need a comprehensive plan for a more stable, peaceful Syria,” Osborne told Reuters in an interview.
“A huge challenge of course, but you can’t just let that crisis fester. We’ve got to get engaged in that.”
The Sunday Times newspaper said British Prime Minister David Cameron wanted to hold a vote in parliament in early October to pave the way for air strikes against Islamic State in Syria.
He was also seeking to launch a military and intelligence offensive against people traffickers, the newspaper said, quoting senior officials.
KEEP READING
French newspaper Le Monde reported earlier on Saturday that France was considering conducting air strikes on Islamic State in Syria, joining an international coalition led by the United States.
The Australian Sep 5
Australian air strikes in Syria will do little to damage Islamic State so the motivation for authorising them appears to be political, one of the nation’s top Middle East experts says.
Australia has not agreed to a U.S. request to expand its own operations against jihadists into Syria, however.
“Countries adjoining Syria and Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and others are bearing the brunt of millions of people fleeing into their borders and then into Europe”, Ms Bishop told The Australian.
France prepares for airstrikes against ISIS as it begins reconnaissance missions on terror targets in Syria
Hollande said reconnaissance would build intelligence on domestic threats
France has been the subject of several ISIS-connected attacks this year
Surveillance flights will also allow France to carry out effective airstrikes
So far France’s anti-ISIS involvement has been limited to neighbouring Iraq
But Hollande ruled out French ground troops being deployed against ISIS
By JOHN HALL FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 05:35 EST, 7 September 2015 | UPDATED: 07:44 EST, 7 September 2015
‘Successful use’
U.S. Defense Department Press Secretary Peter Cook praised Iraq’s air force in a statement Sunday for what he called the “successful use” of the aircraft in the year-old international campaign against the Islamic State group.
“The United States is committed to building a strategic partnership with Iraq and the Iraqi people and we will continue to work with the government of Iraq on the delivery of the remaining aircraft as they become available within the framework of the production schedule,” Cook said.
The U.S.-led airstrikes began in August 2014 in Iraq and a month later in Syria. Coalition planes have conducted more than 4,100 airstrikes in Iraq and another 2,500 in Syria, according to Pentagon data.
In addition to the U.S. and France, those participating in airstrikes in Iraq include Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Jordan and the Netherlands. In Syria, forces from Bahrain, Canada, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates have joined U.S. warplanes in bombing militant targets.
Iraqi ground troops backed by militia fighters have made some progress in regaining territory, but the militants still control much of the seized territory, including several of Iraq’s biggest cities.
Davy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:08 am
Yeap, Pen, migrations the new human reality. Let’s see how the rich and pampered do migrating. Many will not make it because they will not be capable.
I am making my last stand right where I am at here in the Missouri Ozarks. At least that is what I am feeling. I may change my mind when faced with death but it sounds tough now.
beamofthewave on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:17 am
I am wondering about the drought going on in Oregon, I wonder how bad it is going to get here too.
Ralph on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:39 am
The UK is unlikely to expand its military role in Syria. The PM is hamstrung by a previous promise to allow Parliament a free vote on new overseas offensive military action, and with a left wing candidate almost certain to become leader of the main opposition in a couple of weeks it is very unlikely that such a vote would pass.
BobInget on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:50 am
Like most industrialized nations Germany’s
upper work-force is dwindling to the point where once six or eight workers supported each retired person. Today, three workers must.
Japan’s situation is even worse. Because we are living longer, Japanese even longer, soon, we will see Japan and the Koreas invited educated class climate refugees.
The US and Canada have always attracted immigrants. We need more, not fewer.
I always read Kunstler to find out what won’t happen and when. I’m ashamed to say, in my youth I too made sounds like Mr Kunstler.
While i’ve been writing about this refugee crisis,
(not migrant crisis) for years, this is the first time Kunstler mentions millions of white folks in terrible pain.
I’ve got news, there’s much worse happening in Africa. CAR, Sudan, millions have been starving for years. Black lives really don’t matter as much as white. We won’t be seeing Germany or Iceland inviting Sudanese families to stay over. When economies get tough, darker skinned folks are the first to be deported.
MrNoItAll on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 10:53 am
The days of political decisions pandering to what is “morally right” are fast coming to an end.
Cultural and individual survival is at stake. The survival of The Tribe is being threatened.
During the Age of Oil, with all the excess energy and food, there was plenty of opportunity to feel “morally obligated” to provide for the poor and suffering of other “less fortunate” (consuming less energy, enslaved, manipulated, financially subjugated) nations.
That period of time is coming to an end.
Life in this world is about to get a lot more brutal, a lot less forgiving, much less magnanimous. The world is on the fast track to going Medieval once again — more so than is already the case. It is happening already in multiple places around the world. The fire is spreading.
It is better to not take too much for granted. Prepare to meet these challenges on a personal basis in the not too distant future.
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:02 am
Where are the music industry elite of this generation with their food aid concert and album to feed these people and show their empathy? People ate that shit up in the 1980’s. I am not the least worried about these refugee people or droughts, wild fires, social disorder, war, floods, starvation and the rest of the list. Everyone was warned this would happen a couple of generations ago and did fuck all about it. In fact we did more of the shit to bring it on and many people cheered “drill baby drill” and mocked “alarmists” the folks doing the warning. I really enjoy hearing the panic and hate from the xenophobes – it’s very entertaining listening to these people whip themselves up. It’s too late for any solutions, so open up and take your medicine apes. Any refugees show up in my town I’m going to rush out and give them a box of Tim Hortons doughnuts and a McDonalds gift card. That should turn them into toxic, obedient, passive slugs like the rest of the cancer.
We Are The World
BobInget on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:11 am
Ralph,
IS is spreading like a California wildfire.
Generals, most politicians are always ‘fighting the last war’. This time in Syria, powers believe with weapons like drones and Hellfire missiles
movements like Islamic State can be halted or at least contained. President Obama no longer brags “we are going to wipe out ISIL”.
me·tas·ta·sis
məˈtastəsəs/Submit
nounMEDICINE
the development of secondary malignant growths at a distance from a primary site of cancer.
a metastatic growth.
plural noun: metastases
How are Europeans to manage this cancer ?
Can we just kill off leadership and hope a movement just ‘goes away’ when it already spread to another state or continent?
Overheard: “You call us ‘suicide bombers’ we call ourselves “martyrs”.
Now Ralph, how do we deal with that?
BobInget on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:16 am
Apneaman, you are coming down with something. Be careful.
Schadenfreude (/ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/; German: [ˈʃaːdn̩ˌfʁɔʏdə] ( listen)) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.[1] This word is taken from German and literally means “harm-joy”. It is the feeling of joy or pleasure when one sees another fail or suffer misfortune. It is also borrowed by some other languages. An English term of similar meaning (but with no noun equivalent) is “to gloat”; which means to feel, or express, great, often malicious, pleasure, or self-satisfaction, at one’s own success, or at another’s failure.
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:20 am
What’s your point Bob?
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:39 am
Muslim Memories of West’s Imperialism
“Special Report: American politicians know little about history, so they lash out at people from formerly colonized Third World nations without understanding the scars that the West’s repression and brutality have left on these societies, especially in the Muslim world, as historian William R. Polk explains.
By William R. Polk
One result of the great transformation we call the Industrial Revolution in the northern hemisphere was the increasing scale of the European commercial, political and military domination of societies and states scattered from Morocco to Indonesia and from Central Asia deep into Africa. For convenience, because of their location, their relative weakness and their Islamic orientation, I called these Afro-Asian societies “the South.”
Because of the scale of the issues and peoples I am considering, I cannot hope to deal with all aspects of my subject, or indeed with any part of it in satisfactory detail, but I will endeavor to provide enough to give the reader a basis to get an overview of the growth of thought in “the South.” [For the first part of this three-part series – addressing the ancient roots of Muslim grievances – see Consortiumnews.com’s “Why Many Muslims Hate the West.”]”
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/09/04/muslim-memories-of-wests-imperialism/
Boat on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:44 am
Bob,
In a world that has serious sustainability issues, why in the world would you add people anywhere. The US for example kept adding 2 mill per year or so even after the crash of 2007. that’s approx an impact of 14 million while unemployment was still high.
Boat on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 11:55 am
Muslim, African, whoever need to look at the history of the US Indian. Adapt to trade or die. Acquire the necessary skills and become part of the workforce solution.
In a world of eventual resource depletion and room for a much smaller population on the planet, only the good little working minions with skills will survive. If they choose to lash out and fight an unwinnable war they will be the populations that deplete the fastest.
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 12:13 pm
Another first class in depth analysis from the leaky boat. Yep 90% of US Injuns simply refused to acquired the necessary skills/immunity to survive the diseases that killed them. Fucking brilliant.
Who’s winning boat? Seems to me the West is on their back foot and frantically scrambling to react. The Barbarians have already breached the gate and whitey is outnumbered just like the natives were when waves and waves of unwanted illegal European immigrants came to N America on their boats.
Boat on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 12:38 pm
apeman,
U.S. students are graduating from high school at a higher rate than ever before, according to new data from the U.S. Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics. The nation’s high school graduation rate hit 81 percent in 2012-13
This is not a whitey thing. This is an overpopulated thing with only room for fewer people.
U.S. students are graduating from high school at a higher rate than ever before, according to new data from the U.S. Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics. The nation’s high school graduation rate hit 81 percent in 2012-13
I feel bad for the future of the 20%.
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 12:48 pm
I could not agree more with kunstler.
Lets reinstate child mortality, contaigeous diseases and local handling of changes in the weather/climate.
That is cruel, but if humans can’t control their own proliferation, then other factors eventually will take over and limit the amount of humans in this world.
Jerry McManus on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:15 pm
Anybody see the movie “Children of Men”?
How long before we start fencing off entire cities as internment camps for the fugee’s?
randomguy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:17 pm
Eventually, and probably sooner rather than later, there will be immense genocidal pressure on the indigenous people of Europe as they control the more and more limited viable resources by “outsiders”, such as Africans and Middle Easterners whose populations have swelled under oil and would probably come crashing down in an exceptionally brutal manner if they were left to their own devices and didn’t migrate from the middle east and europe. Your already seeing these pressures metastasize in the formation of ISIS, which directly targets westerners.
Lucky for the United States, We border Mexico, with a much smaller population and reasonably good economy, with us white people being the dominant demographic group.
BobInget on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:21 pm
Apneaman, you may need a empathy transplant.
Millions of Americans don’t know who the Vice President is, think Obama is a Muslim, born in Kenya, have never voted, might have difficulty finding Canada on an un marked globe
Go to NASCAR Sundays or hunt with full stomachs.
Millions Firmly believe the earth to be five thousand years old. Think ‘Global Warming’ is caused by too many gays or whatever…
This doesn’t make them stupid people.
Just Donald Trump followers.
Boat, I wrote, ‘this has nothing to do with birth rates’. Not a single ‘new’ human is hatched because refugees relocate. In fact threatened
mortality has much to do with reasons
people leave home during disasters, It’s called survival.
Post WW/2, populations reconfigured. At the time Fascism was on the ropes, so we didn’t hear the complaints we do today.
Europe has been in far worse shape. Don’t worry
even Greeks are grown-ups.
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:31 pm
Whatever we do to help people in over-crowded nations, will just help them becoming even more over-crowded.
If they don’t have a willingness to limit their own numbers, all we do to help them is in vain.
All help to troubled nations should at least be accompanied by an obligation to curb birth rates. But tell that to catholics and muslims who actualy have a fight between them about who is to dominate theese countries.
randomguy on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:37 pm
We are approaching the downward slope in terms of economic and physical resource consumption. The time has come to be very aggressive in controlling these resources for our own kind.
Yet we still have politicians pandering with statements like we’re “all one tribe”, when in fact, this is not true at all.
On top of that, we’ve got Mexicans, Chinese, and Russians making very aggressive noises towards us and our possessions that need to be met by large expenditures in defense and aggressive border control, but politics is still pandering to the outsiders.
The survival of the tribe and the individual is well on its way to being threatened. We need to play the game very aggressively to secure a future for ourselves.
GregT on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:43 pm
Boat said: “U.S. students are graduating from high school at a higher rate than ever before”
And you believe that to be a good thing Boat?
LOW EDUCATION STANDARDS CRIPPLE U.S.
Americans must find a more effective way to combat substandard international averages in education
“For years, states around the country dummied-down standards to make it look as if students were more prepared for success after graduation than they actually were,” Joel Klein said in a New York Post article.
Unfortunately, success seems to be defined by the number of graduates a school spits out, rather than the students’ caliber. According to Amy Weisberg, a teacher and columnist for the Huffington Post, students are hardly encouraged to excel when the teachers’ only ultimatum is to pass as many as possible. Pupils are rushed through their education, taught to take standardized tests without truly learning.
“The current focus of education is on results, as in test results,” Weisberg wrote. “The powers that be have deemed it the sole measurement for students’ success, and when the scores don’t add up, the finger of blame is pointed squarely at teachers.”
When success is measured in numbers, quality is sacrificed for quantity.
https://www.liberty.edu/champion/2013/10/low-education-standards-cripple-u-s/
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:51 pm
Boat they could graduate them at a 100% rate and it won’t matter, since most of them are barely functionally literate and do not even know the difference between a fact and an opinion. The US is the bottom of the barrel as far as western countries go and even scores worse than some third world countries. Don’t get me started on the amazing level of innumeracy. They need to keep lowering the bar just to graduate the ones that are still there and like most “official” stats these days they are probably manipulated.
Students Bombed the SAT This Year, in Four Charts
Scores on the reading section were the worst in decades.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-03/students-bombed-the-sat-this-year-in-four-charts
Why Johnny can’t understand climate: functional illiteracy and the rise of “unpropaganda”
http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.ca/2015/08/why-johnny-cant-understand-climate.html
Boat take a look at what was expected of grade 8 students 100 years ago. See how many you get right. Most of the useless university graduates today with degrees in Marketing and Human Resources and 500 other shit degrees would fail miserably. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
1912 Eighth Grade Examination for Bullitt County Schools
http://bullittcountyhistory.org/bchistory/schoolexam1912.html
BobInget on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 1:52 pm
http://www.npr.org/2015/09/07/437589596/amid-a-shortage-of-welders-some-prisons-offer-training
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:01 pm
Whatever we do to help people in over-crowded nations, will just help them becoming even more over-crowded.
If they don’t have a willingness to limit their own numbers, all we do to help them is in vain.
All help to troubled nations should at least be accompanied by an obligation to curb birth rates. But tell that to catholics and muslims who actualy have a fight between them about who is to dominate theese countries – at least in Africa.
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:04 pm
Bob I know all that – I lived in the great state of Georgia for 7 years. Empathy evolved for small groups of 150 or less, so I’ll save mine for the people I know. Besides were fast approaching the time to embrace our inner psychopath as a matter of survival. Why worry about the inevitable? No one can stop the forces already underway. We have sown, now we shall reap.
GregT on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:10 pm
“Whatever we do to help people in over-crowded nations”
So claman, what exactly have you done to “help people in over-crowded nations”. I’m guessing absolutely nothing. So what’s with the we?
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:16 pm
claman, did Europeans curb their birthrates 500 years ago or did they get on boats and over run the native populations that had been in the Americas for at least 15,000 years? Migration or death is what all creatures do when their environmental conditions change and cannot support the population. Apes just like to tell stories to pretend they are in control. Were no different than any other living thing – we are still ruled by the laws physics, chemistry and biology. We just have better toys.
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:20 pm
History of human migration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_migration
onlooker on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:31 pm
So correct the correlation between migration and overpopulation. In fact overpopulation can also be implicated in wars and environmental damage. We have not ever considered controlling population for the most part it seems so unsavory to our collective sensibilities and also because controlling population via artificial means is not so easy. Traditionally nature does that for us and it will once again.
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:39 pm
@apne, it seems you have a quite darwinistic attitude to migration. Well I guess that would include that the present inhabitants of a land, is alloved to fight back when they feel their souvereignity is threatened by “invading” tribes
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:44 pm
@onlooker, china actually had a one child policy, that might have prevented it from having a real and complete disater today.
apneaman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:47 pm
Oh yeah, claman. They either run or fight. Same as any other animal. Same as it ever was.
OVERSHOOT LOOP:
Evolution Under The Maximum Power Principle
Here is a synopsis of the behavioral loop described above:
Step 1. Individuals and groups evolved a bias to maximize fitness by maximizing power, which requires over-reproduction and/or over-consumption of natural resources (overshoot), whenever systemic constraints allow it. Differential power generation and accumulation result in a hierarchical group structure.
Step 2. Energy is always limited, so overshoot eventually leads to decreasing power available to the group, with lower-ranking members suffering first.
Step 3. Diminishing power availability creates divisive subgroups within the original group. Low-rank members will form subgroups and coalitions to demand a greater share of power from higher-ranking individuals, who will resist by forming their own coalitions to maintain power.
Step 4. Violent social strife eventually occurs among subgroups who demand a greater share of the remaining power.
Step 5. The weakest subgroups (high or low rank) are either forced to disperse to a new territory, are killed, enslaved, or imprisoned.
Step 6. Go back to step 1.
The above loop was repeated countless thousands of times during the millions of years that we were evolving[9]. This behavior is inherent in the architecture of our minds — is entrained in our biological material — and will be repeated until we go extinct. Carrying capacity will decline[10] with each future iteration of the overshoot loop, and this will cause human numbers to decline until they reach levels not seen since the Pleistocene.
http://www.dieoff.org/
GregT on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:48 pm
“Well I guess that would include that the present inhabitants of a land, is alloved to fight back when they feel their souvereignity is threatened by “invading” tribes”
Just because they are “allowed to fight back”, does not necessarily mean that they will win.
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:54 pm
@greg, i have done nothing to help over-crowded nation, because i think they should help them selves, without the the damaging influence of western,chinese or arabian influence
GregT on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 2:59 pm
claman,
As the fossil fuel age winds down, you will understand more and more that the nation you live in is overcrowded. This is no longer just a national problem, it is global.
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 3:00 pm
@greg: Just because they are “allowed to fight back”, does not necessarily mean that they will win.
You’re so right, and that is exactly what is worrying a lot of us here in europe
GregT on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 3:08 pm
If you have the ability to do so claman, now would be a very good time to move.
claman on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 3:15 pm
gregt@ We can talk about this for ages. But the fact is that there are so many millions in the middle east that has nowhere to go but europe, that we are actually a little scared about how that will end.
We can see how they (and their culture) has maneged a severe and predictable crises, and now when it all goes south they are all going north.
We are not amused
GregT on Mon, 7th Sep 2015 3:19 pm
“We are not amused”
I doubt that you will be more amused as time goes on claman. Immigration will be of the least of your concerns.