Peak Oil is You
Donate Bitcoins ;-) or Paypal :-)
Page added on January 5, 2016
Fork the Economy
I’ve given up on fixing the economy. The economy is not broken. It’s simply unjust. There’s a difference.
We have to stop looking at our economy as a broken system, but one that is working absolutely true to its original design. It’s time to be progressive — and this means initiating systemic changes.
For example, Bernie Sanders’ well-meaning calls to rein in the banking industry by restoring the Federal Reserve’s function as a “regulatory agency” reveals the Left’s inability to grasp the true causes for today’s financial woes. We are not witnessing capitalism gone wrong — an otherwise egalitarian currency system has not been corrupted by greedy bankers — but, rather, capitalism doing exactly what it was programmed to do from the beginning. To fix it, we would have to dig down to its most fundamental code, and rewrite it to serve people instead of power.
First off, the role of the Federal Reserve was never to serve as an “agency.” It’s not like the Environmental Protection Agency, which is charged with regulating corporate destruction of the natural world — however woefully it may be carrying out that purpose. Rather, the Fed is a private corporation — a banker’s bank owned by the banks — created to guarantee the value of currency. It was built to serve the dollar and maintain its value by fighting inflation. When the Fed is feeling magnanimous, it can also lend extra money into existence, in the hope that it will be invested in enterprises that employee people.
The actions of the Fed, however, are limited by the way our money, central currency, was designed to work. It was developed back before the Industrial Age, as a waning European aristocracy sought to stem the rise of the merchant middle class. Small merchants were getting rich for the first time since feudalism began, thanks to the spread of the peer-to-peer marketplace and its ingenious new currency system of grain receipts and market money.
Photo credit: epicharmus via Foter.com / CC BY.
At the beginning of the market day, a baker could put receipts for bread into circulation by purchasing his weekly supplies. Those receipts could be spent on other items until a receipt holder actually needed bread, and cashed it in. Other moneys were based on stored grain or hay. They were created not for savings or accumulation, but to promote transactions.
One by one, European monarchs outlawed these local currencies and implemented central currencies that could only be lent into existence, at interest. If a business wanted to use money, it would have to borrow it from the central bank, at interest. This new system helped the rich maintain their exclusivity over wealth. They could get richer simply by being rich.
The monetary system was designed not to help people create and exchange value, but rather to extract value from anyone hoping to transact. It was not designed to promote circulation, but to serve as a drag on circulation.
Making matters worse, central currency requires an economy to grow — and to do so faster and faster. If, for every $100,000 lent into circulation, $200,000 has to eventually be paid back, then where does the other $100,000 come from? Someone has to borrow or earn it.
Now this scheme works fine as long as the economy is growing — as the colonial powers were through their conquest of the world, and even America managed to do through corporate expansion in the decades following WWII. But our ability to grow has reached its limits. There are no more regions to conquer or developing nations to exploit. Efforts to escape into outer space notwithstanding, our planet has been stretched beyond its carrying capacity for additional extraction and growth.
We are moving toward an economic plateau; but, while a steady state economy of slow or no growth is good for people and planet, it is utterly incompatible with the money system on which our economy is still based.
Making matters worse, in the digital age, we have accelerated our stock markets with high frequency trading and our business landscape with steroidal startups and ruthless platform monopolies from Amazon to Uber. These companies are valued less for their ability to turn a profit than to get acquired or reach IPO — and pay up to the institutions who lent them their original capital.
No, charging the Fed with fixing the problems of capitalism is like asking an oil company to help get us off fossil fuels. That’s selling the wrong tool for the job.
As I’ve argued in my upcoming book, Throwing Rocks at the Google Bus, we are running a 21st Century digital economy on a 13th Century printing press-era operating system. The opportunity of a digital age and the sensibilities it brings is to reprogram money to favor transaction over accumulation — flow over growth.
Photo credit: 401(K) 2013 via Foter.com / CC BY-SA.
This means experimenting with new, frictionless forms of exchange — from local currencies that increase circulation 10-fold over bank-issued money to Bitcoin, which verifies transactions without the need for an expensive central authority. Already, we see successful implementations of alternative monetary systems not only in progressive coastal cities, but also former industrial cities of the steel belt. Online “favor banks” energize the exchange of goods and services in communities from austerity-paralyzed Greece to recession-devastated Lansing, Michigan. New, investor-proof co-ops — from window manufacturers in Chicago to software developers in New Zealand — consciously optimize for the flow of value through a network, rather than the extraction of value from it.
Platform cooperatives — such the driver-owned, ride-sharing platform Lazooz — utilize the blockchain to assess ownership based on the number of miles driven. Even if the company follows Uber toward driverless vehicles, at least its workers will share in the future earnings their labor has created.
What distinguishes these experiments from traditional Leftism is that they are not attempting to compensate for the inequities of our economic system after the fact. They are not redistributing the spoils of corporate capitalism, as top-down enacted policies would do. Rather, they mean to distribute the means of production and the tools for exchange more widely. From Benefit Corporations to local crowdfunding, the best efforts at forging more equitable financial instruments are characterized by a willingness to reprogram business, currency, and exchange from the inside out.
That’s why, as we embark on another election year, we must stop looking toward candidates to tweak one knob or the other on our existing economy or monetary system. Replacing the members of the Fed won’t change the basic nature of the Fed any more than an incrementally more progressive tax code will change the extractive nature of central currency.
What those who hope to rein in the banking industry must do instead is break its monopoly over value creation and exchange by fostering competitive currencies, alternative corporate structures, worker-ownership, and restored respect for land and labor instead of just capital. If we can’t join ’em, then let’s beat ’em at their own game. We can make our own economy and money, too.
After all, it is a free market.
102 Comments on "Fork the Economy"
Cloud9 on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 4:58 pm
Maybe my understanding of capitalism is different than yours. As I understand it capitalism is a free market economy where buyers and sellers meet in free open exchanges. What we have is a state run system that benefits the oligarchs it was designed to serve. Crony capitalism is not capitalism.
I have no doubt as the system dies that individuals will revert to local economies that thrive on barter, that involve gold and silver, commodities and services. There was a time during the death of the mark that you could rent a mother and daughter off the streets of Berlin. That is what the death of money and the resulting desperation does.
As we slip down this slope, a salvage economy will thrive. Repair and adaptation will drive local production. We will discover as Cuba has discovered that productive farmers are our single most important asset.
ohanian on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 5:34 pm
Can someone please tell me who wrote this article? I cannot figure it out. There is no name attached to the article (the article not the picture of the book).
Apneaman on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 5:39 pm
ohanian, it’s the book’s author, Douglas Rushkoff.
http://www.shareable.net/blog/fork-the-economy
Anonymous on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 6:18 pm
I see cloud9 subscribes to the no-true scotsman fallacy.
“Those aren’t *true*(tm) capitalists”, they are *crony* capitalists, totally different animal.” haha.
Some americans like to pine for a kindler and gentler, pure and uncut, form of ‘capitalism'(lol). The funny thing about americans is, they are all for reform and trying something new, as long as it has the word ‘capitalism’ in it.And is totally dominate by large, centralized quasi-monopolistic unaccountable corporations that wield all the actual power, of course.
I would like to paraphrase a well-known merikcan 1%er
“In the american empire, you can have any kind of economic system you want, as long as its capitalist.”
Mr Rushkoff is quite right about one thing though. This entire show about endlessly trying to ‘fix’ dysfunctional and unjust systems defines this age. Those in charge, manage to stall genuine reform, basically forever, but continuing to insist,the system is not really broken, just needs a little tweaking.
End result? Nothing ever changes.
pennsyguy on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 6:47 pm
All economies require natural resources and energy inputs to function and Capitalism requires continual growth on our finite planet. I wonder why there are so many problems, morality aside?
Apneaman on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 6:52 pm
Of course ‘socialism’ was most-searched term of 2015: its ideas fit our times
Kshama Sawant
Since the Occupy movement, the dirty word as far as many millennials are concerned is not socialism, but capitalism
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/19/socialism-definition-most-searched-word-of-2015
makati1 on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 7:22 pm
With the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers still running the world’s central banks through the B.I.S., nothing will change until it all changes in a crash that will be heard on Mars. Then we will revert to a pre central bank, pre capitalist world where Cloud9’s predictions are a likely reality.
As pennseyguy said, Mother Nature is going to pull the plug on BAU if humans don’t beat her to it.
HARM on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 9:18 pm
“Crony capitalism is not capitalism.”
Sorry. Cloud9, but making the rich richer and everyone else poorer is exactly what “capitalism” is supposed to do. As the op-ed pointed out, it’s a feature, not a bug.
There was no magical era of “pure capitalism” before the Fed, government regulators, social programs and progressive taxation came in and somehow screwed it all up. The Robber Baron dominated 19th century and early 20th century was marked by a yawning chasm of wealth and power inequality (that almost makes today look good), and the worst kind of “free market” you can imagine.
Slavery? Check. Debtor’s prison? Check. Sharecropping? Check. Company stores that only accepted company scrip (at horrible rates of exchange)? Check. No workers comp, no disability insurance, no unemployment checks. If you lost an arm, leg or eye at the factory, better suck it up and “pull yourself up by your bootstraps”, buster.
Does that sound like the libertarian paradise we were all promised by Ayn Rand, Cloud?
makati1 on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 9:30 pm
HARM, your last paragraph “Slavery…” is spot on as to describing our future. That is what the human world has been like for the last 10,000+ years and will be again. The hydrocarbon legacy gave us a brief vision of a possible future, but we blew it as usual. Now it is a sure return to the lifestyles of yesteryear when all you could depend on was yourself. Adjust now and beat the rush.
Or, we could all watch the huge mushrooms on the horizon. We shall see.
Apneaman on Tue, 5th Jan 2016 10:44 pm
It’s all become so corrupt that even successful investment management firms are getting out before it’s too late.
Nevsky Capital suspends business and posts letter detailing the unmanageable risk factors driving the decision.
https://www.scribd.com/embeds/294654490/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&access_key=key-xfqKH8QC2LsXN87EW4uk&show_recommendations=false
Nevsky’s Taylor Blames Algos in Closing $1.5 Billion Hedge Fund
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-05/nevsky-capital-to-shutter-1-5-billion-hedge-fund-after-15-years
Go Speed Racer on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 3:21 am
For those who don’t like the status quo, there is Bernie Sanders ….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders_presidential_campaign,_2016
First mistake, is thinking the President can change policies as though he is a dictator.
Second mistake, is thinking that you who bust ass to make your $100K a year, living on noodles and not eating out very often, won’t get lumped in with ‘the rich’. Sanders may define ‘good’ as anybody making less than $30K a year, and ‘evil’ as anybody making more than $50K a year.
Meanwhile all the trillionaies won’t get touched anyway, they are immune. So all that happens is with your socialism vote, is you shot yourself in the foot.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 5:33 am
It is not capitalism or democracies fault it is our fault. Blame, complain, and point fingers all you like but you are missing the point by a wide margin. We as a collective species chose to develop, grow, and adapt to what we are today. This was a passive collective effort with self-organizing deterministic trends per our collective disposition.
This points to nothing we can do and no human system will replace democracy or capitalism and be any better. Socialism is a warm and fuzzy capitalism. We don’t have democracy today effectively. A deep state of the wealthy and connected rule the world. There are no countries where this is not the case. All nations are slaves to globalism which is nothing more than hyper capitalism on steroids.
We are the problem as humans. Our ability to amass knowledge and develop soft systems and technology with control systems all but inadequate means we are an extinction species. We have destroyed a planetary ecosystem and climate in the shortest time in earth history. We are the equivalent to an asteroid in impact. You can blame capitalism all you like but we are not capable with our populations and development at anything better.
History is replete with examples of evolutions and movements that once in power are no better than previous regimes eventually. Democracy was always a farce and never pure. There are too many incapable of the higher meaning of democracy and thus no society has a critical mass of people who can make a democracy work. We have a few examples through history that got closer. Democracy and capitalism only work at the basic level of tribe and family with plenty of birth with and between other tribes and families. In other words at very very low population densities.
You can’t reform man at its current position in history with 7BIL people in a hyper complex interconnected global system. Add to that absolute limits to growth and ecosystem habitation. We are in diminishing returns to all efforts and even knowledge. Man went wrong with agriculture and cities. We belong in seminomadic hunter gather relationships as close to harmony as an animal with a large brain can have with nature’s complexity not ours.
This does not mean we can’t have higher spirituality. Spirituality is nothing more than connectivity with the Devine. The Devine is the higher power. If you do not believe in a higher power than you believe in a linear three dimensional human idea of an elaborate machine. That is still a higher power so worship your machine. Atheist are nothing more than worshipers of narcissism of their own human exceptionalism in thinking they are clever to dismiss all other spirituality. Spirituality is circular and unbroken. We break our divine connection by being separate.
We as a species we do not belong at such a level of existence in population, consumption, and development as we have today. It is not natural in the sense of being in harmony with nature allowing for natural complexity, resilience and sustainability humans can never attain. We are natural as an ecosystem destructor.
What can we do at this point? Nothing. We are in a trap of predicaments and catch 22’s. In other words we are paralyzed to further growth and development. We are locked into decay and descent. In that respect we can adapt and mitigate and do our best to collapse with dignity as dying people do in hospices.
We can do much locally and individually and that is what the doom and prep movement is all about. Collapse in place, downsize with dignity, practice relative sacrifice, and devolve lifestyles and attitudes into a new type of man spiritually and physically. Forget reforming capitalism and representative governments of all kinds. At these levels any efforts at change and reform are nothing more than corrupted efforts locked in decay.
There are things at the top that could be done. Vital things that could have significant results for many people. Some of these efforts will occur haphazardly in the coming crisis. These efforts could make a huge difference now in our window of peak everything. They will not be chosen effectively because at every level of green, brown, and multicolor we have the corruption of exceptionalism of the idea of what man is. This means man feels separate from nature in a dualism and self-consciousness. This is exhibited in callous and wanton destruction of our ecosystem consciously and unconsciously. We will return to a species with a smaller footprint by force. This is where you can reform all human systems. Adapt and embrace collapse at every level then you are on the correct path.
Spiritually you can be allowed to grow. The highest spirituality is mysticism and absolute humility. Accepting nothing-ness in a timeless is-ness in our little ecosystem in a vast sea of stars and galaxies. Spiritually we can grow and adapt in decay and death.
We have a very short time to make some changes that will yield huge benefits in decay of globalism. The most significant is food and water. We can adapt and mitigate the worst of what is going to hit ALL large urban locations. Most of all we will just have to accept a shit storm of decay with mind numbing pain and suffering per our current mushy modern disposition. We are the problem at the core. Our very DNA is cursed but we are also at the highest level of life being able to reflect on itself in self-consciousness. That unfortunately is a two edge sword in evolution. We have achieve the highest and lowest of a species and now we are going to cancel out into a bottleneck of uncertainty.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 6:25 am
Does something resemble a ship with lots of leaks? Do you see a daily pattern?
“The Carnage Returns: Stocks Tumble After Sharp Chinese Devaluation; Brent At 2004 Lows; Gold Surges”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-06/carnage-returns-stocks-tumble-after-sharp-chinese-devaluation-brent-2004-lows-gold-s
On the first trading day of the year, stocks crashed after China shocked the world with a circuit-breaking market slide that was not contained by the government. On the second trading day, after the Chinese government intervened drastically, global equities stabilized if just barely.
“Then overnight, even as Chinese stocks surged higher by 2.3% after the ban on major shareholder selling was extended, the global market was far more focused with what was going on in China’s currency, which as reported overnight plunged to new 5 year lows, while the spread between the onshore and offshore Yuan rose to a record wide, suggesting the depreciation in the currency is only going to accelerate from here”
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 6:42 am
“AND” If you are western or any other nationality don’t gloat about China because in this global world all pain is mutual it just takes the contagion time to migrate and infect the rest of the globe host. What is happening in China is “YOUR” problem.
“The Carnage Returns: Stocks Tumble After Sharp Chinese Devaluation; Brent At 2004 Lows; Gold Surges”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-06/carnage-returns-stocks-tumble-after-sharp-chinese-devaluation-brent-2004-lows-gold-s
“A quick reminder why China’s devaluation is bad – in a zero sum world, China’s export gains, mean everyone else’s export losses: “This isn’t good for the rest of the world. Until China stops weakening the yuan, global markets will struggle to stabilize,” said Koichi Kurose, Tokyo-based chief market strategist at Resona Bank Ltd. “The Chinese authorities may be trying to prop up the economy by boosting exports, but while that’ll help one part of China’s economy, it comes at the sacrifice of someone else.”
Cloud9 on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 6:51 am
Harm what is the solution? I admit that the natural progression of capitalism eventually devolves into a monopoly that ultimately dies from entropy. The alternative is some kind of command economy that begins as a monopoly of force. No matter which ism you choose, the end result is the same. Capitalism in the west has lasted four centuries. Fascism died within a generation. Communism lasted half a century or so.
In a world of failing systems what do you want, a command economy where some local warlord or high priest determines who gets what or a free market? I prefer a free market.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 7:00 am
Cloud nailed a good point and that is change is uncertain but what we have does have some certainty. Do you want to go with the enemy you know or one who is mysterious?
Hello on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:17 am
Davy, you write too much. Even if you have a good message I’m certain people skip over it. Also using zerohedge as reference knocks you down in credibility a few notches.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:29 am
Thanks for the advice Hello. Just don’t read it. It is that simple. Be a big boy or girl. This is a free board. I really don’t need your moral support but respect you ability to constructively critisize. This is a refreashing change from the mentally ill in the gang of goons. You have some significant issues yourself like being cavalier to the dangers of collpase but mostly rascism.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:34 am
Sorry board for the poor spelling and grammar on the last comment. I am working on a fence now in the cold commenting with an IPhone. I have made myself clear to the wackos on this site. If you attack me I will attack you. Ignore me and say what you want because I will ignore you. Battle me on ideas not personalities. That is where I stand until we get a moderator or I am removed from the board.
JuanP on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:38 am
Davy, I feel very proud that a deeply disturbed delusional American exceptionalist one percenter living in denial calls me and my friends on this board “a gang of goons”. If you agreed with us, I would get really worried because that would mean we could have completely lost our sanity and common sense. I feel very proud of the company I keep in this board. Unlike you, they all seem to be really open minded truth seekers, exactly my kind of people.
Run, Davy, your goats are getting horny, despicable prick!
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:41 am
Juan, please don’t jump out your highrise window you may hurt someone who is innocent.
JuanP on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:42 am
There goes Delusional Davy with another one of his impotent threatening rants again. Bring it on, coward! You are a traitor to your country and your people. You are the worst human being I have come across in my whole life. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were a pedophile, too, on top of all your other perversions and mental diseases.
JuanP on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:44 am
Delusional Davy living in denial, I know you want me to leave or die or something, but I will likely outlast you, narcissistic prick. Get used to it! Is your ass hurting too much?
Kate on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 8:58 am
JuanP, dial it down a notch or 6. Don’t let this board degenerate into feeble name-calling–we all lose.
I appreciate Davy’s perspective and think it’s worthy of reflection. Evidence more and more points to us being a failed species.
JuanP on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 9:13 am
Kate, My apologies to you and the other board members, but I will not cut it down a notch or six. I don’t know you and I don’t care what you think or want. What have you ever contributed to this forum? Sorry!
Go Speed Racer on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 9:43 am
The board is better without name-calling and potty words. If you are having difficulty controlling your emotions to where a chat board would get you angry, there are some valuable personal growth books.
I would suggest a one-two knockout punch, read
‘Crucial Conversations’
and read that one first.
Then with your mind opened up a little read something a little more perplexing but intricate, ‘Untethered Soul’.
These books help to master some of the interpersonal relations and keeping a level head when your heart is jumping around. It make it less likely to be typing nasty words at complete strangers in a so-what anonymous situation.
Nobody told me timely about such books, I found out late. So I told you and its up to you for go and get the benefit.
Remember the most admirable people are the jet pilot or the surgeon. So those guys don’t jump up and down and scream and type in potty words. So you can figure out how to be more like them, the books will help.
I didn’t see much problem with Davy’s “book” perhaps kind of gloomy but there is a heavy element of gloomers on this website.
A long time ago, this website was about oil production trends, but not lately.
LOL
PracticalMaina on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 9:45 am
Davy, using an I-snob product means that the people who built you’re phone probably already jumped from a window. Also JuanP, weren’t you the one who was bragging about caviar with 1%ers, we’re all hypocrites maybe that’s why people get so heated on these boards. We are the primary causes of problems, one way or another. I am a hypocrite, I am beginning to accept it and look for ways to remedy it, that’s all I can do.
PracticalMaina on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 9:58 am
As i show my hypocrisy by giving you like minded gents shit. This website needs more forums where you guys can share your experiences using permaculture for the benefit of others. And renewables, there is a lot of knowledgeable people on this website. If I want to hear shit talk I can just stay on any other website where the less informed public hangs out.
GregT on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 10:20 am
Practical,
Almost every single semi, or un-moderated forum that I have ever frequented, eventually digresses into an America vs everybody else, or Republican vs Democrat rant. I’m not sure exactly what the point is, but I suspect that it has some relationship to the amount of violent crime and mass shootings that take place daily in the USA. I’m sure that I will be, once again, accused of being part of the ‘anti-American gang’ for saying so, but unfortunately, I speak the truth.
To decent Americans everywhere, please do not take my words personally. I’m not attacking any of you.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 10:35 am
I guess I would need to go back and study Davy’s posts to see what the fuss is about. When the conversation boils down to partisan lines it becomes very spiteful on both side, but on a day to day basis, I don’t see a huge amount of disagreement between Davy and the more “progressive” (? – or whatever label you choose for yourself) members of the board. I just don’t see except when it breaks down to pretty much name-calling.
It would be interesting to see a thread where the actual disagreements about human nature, ideal economic systems, individual vs group rights, etc were all discussed.
For instance Zerohedge is unabashedly pro-capitalist, but I’m sorry its the best website for information about what’s going on economically hands down period (and semi-regular very good political and environmental pieces as well). The forums are downright Fascist and for the most part are comprised of very sad people. The Wall Street Journal does great reporting – does that mean I support its world view and takeaways from the facts it presents?
Few people I know on the Left think that government is some all-benevolent being that in its purest form would save us all, and few people I know on the Right think corporations have some magical power to create all good things.
Just don’t compare me to the leaders/elite, blame me for “what’s wrong with the world”, or assume you know what I know, and we’ll be fine. Other than that, I usually find I have more common ground with the average person (left or right) than sometimes I’d care to admit.
PracticalMaina on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 10:42 am
Davy, I am not gonna call you anti-American. Someone speaking their mind is important to democracy. America has a bloody, violent and corrupt history, but we have also done great things. My feeling on it is “I love the place that I live but I hate the people in charge.” I am seeing a steady decline in the quality of our elected officials. Obama turned into not just a lame duck but a stunningly hypocritical leader, IMO of course. I was very hopeful at one point, until I realized he was going to coddle big business at any cost. Now he is tackling guns, why not start by making the affordable care act provide more mental health care. We still look down at people with mental health issues even though i think a combination of chemical pollutants and our increasingly sick, indoor, plugged in society is making it far more common than anyone wants to admit.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 10:53 am
“Democracy and capitalism only work at the basic level of tribe and family with plenty of birth with and between other tribes and families. In other words at very very low population densities. You can’t reform man at its current position in history with 7BIL people in a hyper complex interconnected global system. Add to that absolute limits to growth and ecosystem habitation. We are in diminishing returns to all efforts and even knowledge. Man went wrong with agriculture and cities.” [Davy]
I mean, this could practically have been written by Derrick Jensen.
PracticalMaina on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 10:54 am
TwoCats, I think that is the biggest issue today. Partisan issues are what distracts us and pits us against each other, instead of against those really pulling the strings and effecting the world. The one thing left or right can sometimes, and should be able to agree on is, we are getting screwed. We need to work towards a solution.
GregT on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 11:09 am
“We need to work towards a solution.”
Absolutely agree. The first step towards finding a solution, is to identify the problem, not to put down and cat call others that are attempting to do so. As has been pointed out by myself and others repeatedly, it is a problem of indoctrination and identity. True patriots do not support corrupt institutions. They call them out. It is the only way that change can be affected. IMVHO, those who continue to label others as “anti-American” for pointing out the obvious, are the biggest part of the problem, not part of any solution.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 11:22 am
GregT
But I’ve only seen you call yourself un-American by proxy of Davy’s ghost. I have yet to see him call you out for being un-American. Maybe he doesn’t feel like he needs to say it anymore because he’s said it so often? And yeah, when you guys launch an assault on him or vice-versa its gonna get heated with divisive rhetoric. I mean I’d like to hear Davy’s thoughts on America good and bad, but I don’t know if that’s the most important issue at this point.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 11:25 am
PracticalMania – Yes divide and conquer, voting against our interests, Southern Strategy, thinking there’s a huge difference between Democrats and Republicans (two elite factions), these are all clouding our minds.
GregT on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 11:50 am
twocats,
I have tried for over two years to be a voice of reason, to be truthful, honest, and to explain my real position. I have repeatedly been called “un-American”, “anti-American”, a BRICs lover, a Putin fan, a hater of the West, an ugly-Canadian, a member of some evil gang, and on and on and on. I am not the only one here that has continuously been accused of things that I am not. Quite frankly I’m sick and tired of the childish rhetoric. My point of view is my own, I stand firmly behind it, and it is subject to change at any time.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 11:51 am
Two cats I am not anti-American enough for a group of individuals on this site. If you are not anti-American enough you are called out as indoctrinated with identity problems. You are called a flag waiver and a deceived patriot. These labels themselves should be a dead giveaway for an anti-American agenda. We are talking about a group of individuals that are focused and consistently pressuring the discussion. This is a group of 4 regulars. There are another 4 or 5 who are all from the same nation that have the same orientation as these 4 regulars but they are irregular contributors.
We are talking individuals that post links and comments continuously throughout the day. If there are any dissent concerning the link’s message then the personal attacks start. People are also called out by name and labeled. These regulars then want to work with a double standard of what is acceptable behavior. There is little concern for normal codes of conduct because they feel they are doing the world a special service by calling out the evil Americans. This makes them think the end justifies the means. That is a prime example of extremism. The obscenities are rampant from these regulars indicating a further pressuring.
I am concerned about the problems of the US but unless these are taken in context with the rest of the global problems it is nothing more than a focus agenda speak. You can’t focus on the US negatively and talk up the Brics positively and not hint at favoritism of point of view. Taking sides to a degree is natural but pressured and focused comments along with attacks and labeling is going too far.
The US is a mess and it is vital we call out US problems at all levels. There is no need to list the problems because this is 75% of what this site and board discuss. I am not going to try to sugar coat or deflect these issues. My point is fairness, balance, and some objectivity. Just mentioning those words and you get labeled. We are talking a truly polarized board in an anti-American slant at least by the regular commenters. I feel there is a silent majority who is more moderate and middle of the road. I am a bit tiered of the constant anti-American topics and wish there were more doom and prep topics.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 11:54 am
See two cats, do you get a sense of double standards and hypocrisy. It is OK for some individuals to label but if they get labeled it is a crime. This is ridiculous behavior.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:01 pm
Well, I’m sorry Davy and GregT but you both sound like pretty regular dudes who could easily be neighbors and even survive an implosion of industrial civilization working together.
For the record, I’m plenty anti-American, but I’m not going to begrudge someone for defending the country they were born in, and I’m not going to dig in my heels if you ever call me out if I’ve taken it a bit too far on a topic. Perhaps a better example, I consider myself an atheist, yet I find a huge amount of spiritual connection with people of faith and don’t feel the need to imagine a world where people don’t hold all sorts of beliefs.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:04 pm
See two cats, do you get a sense of double standards and hypocrisy. It is OK for some individuals to label but if they get labeled it is a crime. This is ridiculous behavior. [davy]
I think yes, you are a bit isolated on the thread, and so you’re only going to want to give so much ground. I get it. And like I’ve said, I only feel the comments are ridiculous on both sides when you guys buckle down on these (sometimes illusory) partisan lines. When it comes to being human and what’s important in life I find you are in line with what most people feel and think on the thread. But maybe I’m being overly optimistic.
GregT on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:06 pm
I am not anti-American Davy. I have done everything possible to explain my real position to you for over two years. You are unable to rise above your indoctrination. You identify yourself with a flag. I do not. I identify myself as an individual, and I do not belong to your delusional, imaginary group.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:21 pm
See, just like I have said witness the double standards of labels and the cover of “I am right and you are wrong”. Notice how I was called out by name and label. Notice how being labeled is unacceptable for this individual. You can’t have it both ways sir.
These folks will not only play that game they take it a step further and put words in your mouth. They will comment on your comment with negative embellishments. I agree with some here to just ignore this. I will ignore this when I am not called out, labeled, and subjected to personal attacks directly. I am doing this because we all have to give some ground for board strength.
GregT on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:31 pm
When you continually tell people that they believe something that they do not, they tend to get pissed off Davy. You have done a very good job of alienating some very decent people here. I’m sure there will be more. You don’t appear to be done quite yet.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:47 pm
My God, there it goes again. The man is describing himself to a “T”. Folks what part of “you can’t have it both ways” is so hard to understand?
Apneaman on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 12:54 pm
From now on all links must be pre approved by Creel commissioner Davy.
Fox NewsDavy’s incessant calls for “fair and balanced” is nothing but special pleading for others to self censor.The Poorest Americans Die Younger Than the Poorest Costa Ricans
The uniquely American nature of financial strain
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/the-poorest-americans-die-younger-than-the-poorest-costa-ricans/422319/
Whoops, sorry commissioner.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 1:11 pm
Folks do you see a pattern the gang follows. We play this over and over. I am in the minority and I am constantly subjected to naked personal attacks. You know you are winning when the gang resort to name calling, labels, and foul language. If the gang is unable to battle with ideas they then attempt to win through intimidation. This is extremism and coersion at its purest forms. This is a group thing which gives the appearance of having them having the correct view.
His links are fine. What is not fine is he won’t own up to them and own up to the game he is playing. The double standards of his links are ok but others must be vigorously attacked. You can’t have it both ways. Why are his links ok and others are violently attacked? The “why” is because extremism does not allow diversity of thought.
twocats on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 1:15 pm
well, gosh, for fear of alienating myself, and I don’t have a lot of time, and some of Davy’s “there are some guys, all from a country that I won’t mention” is a little incendiary, but fuck an a guys, grow a pair, nothing, I mean NOTHING Davy has said in this post is all that bad, and at no point STILL has he directly said “GregT is anti american” and then you guys kind of jump on him. I’m sorry, it’s like in football, you guys are over reacting to the minorest (sic) of offensives and that generally draws a yellow flag. Look, we aren’t going to solve this today or ever probably, and who am I to judge, and there’s a huge history, but if I have to be the asshole I will be it and say that I appreciate Davy on the site and have no problem with him even if I don’t (theoretically) agree with every position, though he’s never said anything specifically that I find that far off the reservation.
Apneaman on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 3:21 pm
Poor widdle Davy looking for friends to help him.
twocats, you must have missed some of his classics, like challenging someone to a knife fight or telling another he pisses and shits on their family. Also he is a 1%er who is an apologist for the 1% and is constantly trying to tell others what is acceptable and allowable either directly or implied. There is a bunch of other shit, but you are fairly new so keep an eye out and you’ll see it. He’s a fucking two faced hypocrite. Claims everyone he doesn’t like has an “agenda” but he’s only here for fair and balanced discussion. The self appointed board statesman and diplomat, except he’s not. See, you can’t be a vile spewing temper tantrum throwing asshole and then turn around and claim to be the only mature adult in the room. Everything Davy accuses others of doing, like personal attacks, he has done himself in spades. I, on the other hand, have never pretended to be anything other than a doomer, asshole, mocking, absurdist, big picture misanthrope, which is why I never tell people what they need to do or should do, nor do I have a prescription for the already doomed society and species to follow. Davy has been exposed for the pretender and bullshitter he is and he don’t like it so he is in full image damage control mode and crying to others how he is just an innocent victim of a coordinated “gang” attack. He does not want anyone to think that others independently came to their own conclusion that he is an asshole. It’s must be a conspiracy. Bullshit. That’s what I do – expose bullshit and bullshitters. I have plenty of my own personal bullshit, but I own it, so that way I do not have to spend all that effort pretending to be someone I am not.
Davy on Wed, 6th Jan 2016 3:59 pm
Ape turd what is new with your puke? Nothing. Nothing that has not been regurgitated before. I am guilty as charge on some of the accusations. Other accusations are fabrications and embellished renditions. Most of your miserable discourse is just pollution.
I call it pollution because we have seen several board members request an end to the name calling. You could give a rat’s ass about others. The only one you care about is mom. That is all you have you lonely broken man.
The point is ape turd if you are going to do personal attacks, labels, and destorted restatements on me I will attack you back. I have a right to voice my opinion without your coercive extremism. The same goes for your gang of goons. I have the right to self defense. You started this mess. This board pollution is on you.
You can keep this game up but it is clearly unpopular. You are actually hurting your message other find important. You are hurting it by becoming more interested in turf wars than winning the hearts and minds of our fellow board members.
These people do not want to be herassed by the board bully and his goon gang. They want an opportunity to voice their opinion and they want to hear others without being soiled by your name calling and obscenities out of your filthy mouth. I can just imagine your dim and dank den where you lurk with spent cigs and trash everywhere. You are disgusting, dirty, and rank.
So keep it up at your own expense. I have made it clear to the board I will avoid personal attacks unless attacked. If you call me out by name with a label and or attack I will attack you. I will ignore you if you ignore me. I will ignore your attacks on others because I am not the board moderator. I will battle your ideas and agenda to the fullest of my ability because your message is hate, resentment, and distortions. You are a farce and a lie as a person.
I said enough in my earlier critique of your miserable life Ape turd so no need to rehash that until maybe tomorrow. I say tomorrow because you are an addict and tomorrow will come and you will be needing your next ugly fix.