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Page added on October 15, 2014
Egypt warplanes hit Libya
Egypt deepened its involvement in the fight against Islamist militias who have taken over key parts of Libya on Wednesday, with officials saying Egyptian warplanes have bombed their positions in the eastern city of Benghazi.
The two officials, who have firsthand knowledge of the operation, said the use of the aircraft was part of an Egyptian-led campaign against the militiamen that will eventually involve Libyan ground troops recently trained by Egyptian forces.
The operation, they said, was requested by the internationally recognized Libyan administration based in the eastern city of Tobruk. That elected administration was thrown out of the capital, Tripoli, by rival militias allied with Islamic political factions.
A fire truck drives towards smoke caused by an attack by Islamist militias during clashes with forces led by renegade Libyan Gen. Khalifa Hifter in Benghazi, Libya, Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2014. Islamist militias fought Wednesday with forces loyal to Hifter, who vows to seize the eastern city of Benghazi, as a top militia commander accused Egypt of bombing his positions with warplanes. (AP Photo/Mohammed el-Sheikhy)
“This is a battle for Egypt not Libya,” one of the senior officials said. “Egypt was the first country in the region to warn against terrorism and it is also the first to fight it.”
The officials, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, said the operation would last three to six months and involve the use of an Egyptian navy vessel as a command center off the Mediterranean coast near Tobruk. Renegade Libyan general Khalifa Hiftar, who has vowed to wipe out the Islamist militias, is not leading the operation, they added, with Cairo dealing directly with a newly appointed Libyan chief of staff who has visited Egypt several times in recent weeks.
In a televised statement on Tuesday, Hifter, who was an army chief under Gadhafi before joining his opponents decades ago, said that he will resign and transfer power to a young army leadership.
Tobruk-based Libyan Prime Minister Abdullah al-Thinni told Dubai-based Sky News Arabia that all troops involved in the battles in Benghazi are under the command of the new chief of staff and are instructed to restore state institutions and combat terrorism.
“After the appointment of the chief of staff for the Libyan army, all military operations are under the umbrella of the state and its military leadership,” he said.
Al-Thinni met Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi during his last visit to Egypt on Oct. 9. During the visit, Egyptian Defense Minister Gen. Sedki Sobhi said that Egypt is ready to offer “all support” to the Libyan army, especially in “combating terrorism.”
Libyan lawmaker Tareq al-Jorushi confirmed to the AP that Egyptian warplanes were taking part in the ongoing operation in Benghazi, but said that they were being flown by Libyan pilots. He says the planes were “rented” by the Libyan administration from Egypt. Al-Jorushi is awaiting confirmation of his appointment on the Tobruk-based parliament’s national security committee, which is responsible for such issues. He is also the son of the head of Libya’s air force, Gen. Saqr al-Jorushi. He said he learned that the planes are Egyptian from the new chief of staff.
In an official statement posted on Egypt’s state-run news agency however, presidential spokesman Alaa Youssef denied that Egyptian planes were striking targets in Libya.
Libya has been mired in turmoil since Gadhafi’s ouster in 2011, with militias operating with impunity and the government unable to rein them in. In recent months, Islamist militias swept through Libya’s two main cites of Tripoli and Benghazi, defeating anti-Islamist forces, setting up their own government and reviving an old parliament.
Egypt, which has publicly stated its support of the elected administration based in Tobruk, views the presence of hard-line extremists near its western border as a direct national security threat. It had made no secret of its willingness to offer military support to the Tobruk-based government, saying it would train and arm its forces.
Egypt’s direct military involvement, however, reinforces the notion that Libya has become a proxy battleground for larger regional struggles, with Turkey and Qatar backing the Islamist militias while Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates support their opponents.
Earlier on Wednesday, a top Islamic militia commander based in Benghazi said Egypt sent its warplanes to hit his group’s positions.
“We have photographs of the Egyptian warplanes and Egyptian naval forces stationed in eastern cities,” he told the AP. He said the planes were taking off from an airport in Libya’s eastern city of Bayda.
“The Egyptians are bombing us day and night and only want to seed divisions among us here,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution.
It is unclear what Egypt’s involvement can accomplish.
The Libyan army and police have been in shambles since the collapse of Gadhafi’s regime, and attempts by successive governments to disarm and integrate former rebels into the army have failed.
U.S. officials confirmed in the summer that Egypt and the UAE were involved in airstrikes against militia positions in and near Tripoli. Egypt denied involvement, while the UAE said nothing publicly.
Speaking to reporters in Washington, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said she was not in a position to confirm the strikes, but that such a move would raise concerns for the United States.
“Broadly speaking, we would be concerned about outside interference in Libya, which is consistent with the communiques we’ve signed onto,” she said.
Wednesday’s airstrikes preluded what many believe to be a concerted push against the Benghazi militias, and Hifter has described the fighting as a “turning point” in the war against the Islamists.
Residents contacted by telephone said they saw warplanes striking camps of several Islamist militias fighting under an umbrella group called the Shura Council of Benghazi Revolutionaries. Armed men have set up checkpoints and cordoned off their neighborhoods to prevent militias from using their districts as staging ground for attacks army forces, they added, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.
As night fell, there were conflicting reports over who controlled several military barracks after fighting in Benghazi.
An Islamist militia commander said that his group’s forces took over army barracks housing tanks and a second commander said that three people have been killed in the fighting so far, without saying which side had suffered the losses. He says the takeover of the barracks came after an Islamist suicide bomber blew himself up at the camp gates. The commanders also spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to speak to the press.
A Benghazi hospital official said that the death toll had reached nine, mostly civilians.
A security official allied to Hifter denied the claim, saying that the general’s troops “liberated” one of the barracks controlled by “extremists,” killing a leading member of the Ansar al-Shariah militia.
Ansar al-Shariah was implicated in the deadly assault on U.S. Consulate in Benghazi in 2012 which left four Americans dead, including the ambassador.
“I am in the street right now, with my colleagues, and Hifter’s forces are deployed to the center and engaged in fierce clashes,” said the official, who is a member of Benghazi’s official security body. He and the hospital official also spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution.
___
Michael reported from Cairo. With reporting from Matthew Lee in Washington.
A fighter with forces led by renegade Libyan Gen. Khalifa Hifter stands by the body of an Ansar al-Shariah militiaman killed during clashes in Benghazi, Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2014. Islamist militias fought Wednesday with forces loyal to Hifter, who vows to seize the eastern city of Benghazi, as a top militia commander accused Egypt of bombing his positions with warplanes. (AP Photo/Mohammed el-Sheikhy)
The body of an Ansar al-Shariah militiaman lies on the ground in Benghazi, Libya, Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2014. Islamist militias fought Wednesday with forces loyal to renegade Libyan Gen. Khalifa Hifter, who vows to seize the eastern city of Benghazi, as a top militia commander accused Egypt of bombing his positions with warplanes. (AP Photo/Mohammed el-Sheikhy)
FILE – In this Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2012 file photo, Libyan militias from towns throughout the country’s west parade through Tripoli, Libya. The chaos unleashed by the Arab Spring has led to the rise of powerful militias across the Middle East, some allied with governments, others fighting to topple them and some — like the Kurdish peshmerga in northern Iraq — seen as vital Western allies. All could prove to be major obstacles to bringing peace or stability to the troubled region (AP Photo/Abdel Magid Al Fergany, File)
FILE – In this Saturday, May 17, 2014 file photo, Libyan Gen. Khalifa Hifter addresses a press conference in Benghazi, Libya. In eastern Libya, a new round of battles appeared imminent after renegade Gen. Khalifa Hifter announced Tuesday, Oct. 14, 2014, in a late televised statement, a new offensive to “liberate” Benghazi, Libya’s second largest city, “from terrorists.” Benghazi has fallen into hands of Islamist extremist militias in the past few months. The militias overran army barracks and seized large amounts of weapons. Hifter’s forces called for an “armed uprising” on Wednesday in Benghazi, urging youth to carry weapons and fight for their own neighborhoods. (AP Photo/Mohammed el-Shaiky, File)
57 Comments on "Egypt warplanes hit Libya"
noobtube on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 8:00 pm
“Internationally-recognized” eh?
We’re for real. We’re for real.
We’re the true African government in Libya.
The non-Africans said so.
Davy on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 8:36 pm
Egypt would be stupid to not move on eastern Libya. Egypt is in grave danger as a country because of PO and overshoot. Forget political correct they need the oil and it is next door. They don’t have to invade the country to manage the influence that would be needed to gain access to this oil.
Northwest Resident on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 8:54 pm
As the pressure ramps up due to oil shortages, we can confidently predict that the bigger and badder countries will be moving in to take control of weaker countries’ oil and whatever other resources they need. All the international niceties and protocols won’t hold up for long as the pressure builds. That kind of human behavior is well documented and is as reliable as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West. That kind of behavior will manifest itself on an international scale, and on a million local scales as the pressure builds. Count on it.
Makati1 on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 9:53 pm
I have stopped trying to follow the events in the ME. I’m not sure anyone knows what is truly happening there. All I know is the US pulled the plug that was holding it all in check, in some demented idea that they could control it all. Proof of the lack of intelligence and abundant insanity at the top.
ghung on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 10:48 pm
One wonders if this isn’t a case of the blind leading the blind. Until they can create economies that give people, especially the young, something better to do than join militias and kill each other, this will be BAU for MENA. Not sure how that happens. Overshoot isn’t an equal opportunity fuckup.
Plantagenet on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 11:25 pm
Obama and Hillary are blaming the attack in Benghazi on a spontaneous protest over a YouTube video.
Hey….why not? They tried it once before…..
Nony on Wed, 15th Oct 2014 11:48 pm
1980…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBGPw_LBiRA
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 12:55 am
2014…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjnm3V0xYjI
Nothing to laugh about, unless one is a complete fool.
sterusferi on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 7:21 am
Egypt and Libya fight again.
Last time was 1977. Looks like Egypt needs to get it’s hands on some oil.
http://www.historyguy.com/egypt_libya_war_1977.htm
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 8:47 am
The world is so crazy you have to laugh at it, unless one is a complete fool,
bobinget on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 8:58 am
These days one needs a who’s who program to tell which proxy is truing to kill off which proxy to the last Syrian or in this case, Libyan.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/08/27/here-are-the-key-players-fighting-the-war-for-libya-all-over-again/
an excerpt:
Qatar
The small Gulf state signaled its outsized geopolitical ambition in 2011 when it played an overt role in aiding the rebellion against Gaddafi. Reports at the time indicated Qatari special forces were operating inside Libya and that Qatari fighter jets may have run sorties in the country. Since 2011, the Qataris have emerged as one of the key backers of political Islam in the Middle East and North Africa, supporting the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and a range of Islamist outfits from Tunisia to Syria. As The Washington Post reported Tuesday, Qatar’s connections to an al-Qaeda-linked Salafist militia in Syria were instrumental in winning the release of a kidnapped American journalist this weekend.
This conspicuous footprint has made Qatar — as well as the government of Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a moderate Islamist — the target of criticism from Arab autocrats and secularists elsewhere. Journalists working for Qatar’s TV network Al Jazeera have been rounded up by Egyptian authorities in the wake of the 2013 overthrow of President Mohamed Morsi, who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. In June, a spokesman for Haftar, the rogue Libyan general, warned all Qatari and Turkish nationals to leave the country and accused both countries of backing terrorism.
Still reading?
While airstrikes were believed to have been conducted from Egypt, U.S. officials say that the planes flown had come from the UAE, the small country that sits on the Persian Gulf, more than 2,500 miles from Tripoli. The country’s air force is well-regarded and helped in the fight against Qaddafi’s government during the 2011 civil war.
The UAE is a military ally for the United States and a militia commander told The Washington Post that whoever launched the airstrikes had used munitions manufactured by the United States. “The bombs were American-made, and as far as our information goes regarding that ammunition, it is only used by Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Israel in the Middle East,” Abubaker al-Huta, a militia commander, said.
Saudi Arabia:
As part of its larger regional chess match with Iran, a Shiite theocracy, the Saudis have at various times enabled the rise of Sunni militancy in corners of the Middle East. The country remains the source of support for some of the most virulent strains of Salafism in the Muslim world. Meanwhile, it has helped suppress democratic uprisings it distrusts, such as the protests in neighboring Bahrain which were put down in part with the help of a Saudi military intervention.
Moreover, Saudi ties with the United States, a longstanding ally, have deteriorated over disagreements about the region’s democracy uprisings as well as U.S. attempts to find rapprochement with Tehran. There are even signs of a growing axis between the Saudis, Sissi’s Egypt and the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — political maneuvering which all casts a shadow on the turmoil in Libya.
bobinget on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 9:18 am
So, we have almost every Muslim OPEC member fighting among themselves. What could go wrong?
No wonder KSA is over taxiing its oil wells!
I’m much more concerned about what happens to world’s economy when one or more OPEC members begin to fight each other, and oil suddenly shoots back to +$90.
Since oil is ALWAYS denominated in dollars (it doesn’t matter what currency is used in trade),
Oil is way too expensive for poor countries because of the stronger US dollar.
Look for Libya to become a hot topic.
American attentions spans are too short for our little air-war in Iraq to keep people interested.
Im just guessing but if Russia or anyone else wanting to ‘get back’ to higher oil prices, a few well placed bombs over Libyan oil choke centers will do the trick with very little kick-back.
JuanP on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 9:19 am
I hope this doesn’t interfere with the more than one million BPD of oil that they were producing according to one of their ministers last week. LOL
Lybia was the most developed country in Africa with the highest quality of life under Mohammad Gadaffi.
That is what American democracy and human rights promotion produces these days.
It seems that everywhere they go the USA leaves a failed state behind. The US is partially responsible for the destruction of Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Lybia, Syria, and now Ukraine.
Do you want American freedom and democracy in your country? I know I don’t!
JuanP on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 9:21 am
And that was just in the last 15 years.
America, the beautiful … Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 9:51 am
Juan, I have the highest respect for your opinions but you are swinging quickly to a less balanced critique with what appears to be emotion driven disgust. This is not the Juan I have come to know. Your positional movement has me concerned as a friend. I hope I have not lost you as a partner in seeking balance. I do not deny I may have been deluded into believing balance is even possibly anymore. The problem with periods of crisis like we have now is the loss of the middle ground. Extreme times drown out calls for balance and accommodation. I am not criticizing your knowledge I am expressing concern for a strong movement in attitude. You generally are better research than me and surely more popular on this board.
noobtube on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 10:01 am
The American definition of “balance” and “fairness” and “justice” and “free trade” is Americans getting and doing whatever they want in other people’s lands.
Americans will scream freedom while enslaving a whole continent of people.
Americans will scream respect for life while committing genocide against the innocent.
Americans will whine about balance and fairness while they slander a whole religion of worshippers and proclaiming Christianity as being peaceful and superior.
Americans are such self-important assholes.
paulo1 on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 10:10 am
re statement: “It seems that everywhere they go the USA leaves a failed state behind. The US is partially responsible for the destruction of Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Lybia, Syria, and now Ukraine.
Do you want American freedom and democracy in your country? I know I don’t!”
I understand where you are coming from on this Juan, certainly fueled by disillusionment. However, one could argue that these states were and are failed regardless of US involvement. I don’t believe the US is evil per se, but what I do believe is the meme sported by insiders and many poorly informed/romantic US citizens that the US experiment is ‘good and just’, therefore, anything done in the name in the name of the country is also ‘good and just’. It is somewhat of a religion, isn’t it? The breakdown occurs out of the fact that US interests reflect the best interests of influential corporations and the 1% who own almost everything, and no longer reflect everyday people. Examples of this are: outsourcing, tariffs, tax laws, and subsidies. Violent examples are certainly those examples of military meddling.
The difference with other countries, THE BIG DIFFERENCE, (excuse the caps I meant no rudeness, is that protests is still possible in the US and suitably informed and motivated the ‘people’ could take it back. It could be done. Right now, even the disenfrabchised are too well fed and entertained, but with enough protest and upheavel the Govt would have to start a process of change.
This is much different than other countries including many of those run by ME allies.
Paulo
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 10:14 am
“The world is so crazy you have to laugh at it, unless one is a complete fool,”
Only fools find amusement in insanity.
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 10:31 am
Paulo, if there were a worthy alternative to promote I would. I am most concerned with truth and balance not flag waving. This board can be extreme with “you are with us or against us” attitude. I see no other country without sin especially Russia, China, and Euro Union. These other countries are engaged in the same self-interest and influence peddling. Our global system is one big glass house that no one can throw rocks in. The US is in diminishment on all fronts. The coming crisis will cause major adjustments to attitude and lifestyles. The den of thieves in DC/NY days are numbered. What more do the American critical commenters here want? Is it total destruction that is the key to satisfying the disgust? I accept the US is in a special category of criticism but how special is debatable.
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 10:58 am
@GregT
I’m constantly amazed how many people think the Islamic State or Libya or Iran are “insane.” People in other countries are not insane—they just have quite different cultures and different religions and different belief systems then those you are familiar with. I suggest you travel to some of these countries and places that you think are “insane” and meet the people and learn about them before you characterize them all as “insane.” You’ll find that people in other countries are not all Christian and have developed a wonderful variety of world views, cultures, religions, and politics that are likely at odds with your own personal beliefs, but are by no mean insane.
CHEERS!
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 10:59 am
Davy,
The disgust is not for the US per say. It is for the actions of those wreaking death and destruction around the globe, and for the citizens that are enabling it. How many millions more will be murdered in the names of peace, freedom, liberty, justice, and democracy?
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Continued aggression will not end well for the US, or the world.
ghung on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 11:09 am
BBC: Carter Center shuts Egypt office over rights concerns
“The Carter Center also said it would not send a mission to observe this year’s parliamentary elections.
It cited the “crackdown on dissidents, opposition groups, and critical journalists, together with heightened restrictions on core freedoms”.
The organisation opened an office in Cairo after the 2011 uprising.
It sought to support the country’s democratic transition after President Hosni Mubarak was deposed….
….It also monitored six elections, the last being the presidential poll in May 2014 which was won by former military chief Abdul Fattah al-Sisi.
Carter: “The current environment in Egypt is not conducive to genuine democratic elections and civic participation”
In July 2013, the then field marshal led the overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi and the subsequent crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood that has so far seen at least 1,400 people killed.
More than 16,000 others have been detained and hundreds have been sentenced to death, including senior figures in the Brotherhood.
Secular activists have meanwhile been prosecuted for protesting against a law that places restrictions on public gatherings, demonstrations or meetings of more than 10 people.
At least 14 journalists are also behind bars in Egypt,…
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 11:11 am
Beware, the Military Industrial Complex;
http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/military-companies-likely-to-benefit-from-airstrikes-in-iraq-syria-1.306634
WASHINGTON — Three days after U.S. warships fired 47 cruise missiles at Sunni militant targets in northern Syria last week, the Pentagon signed a $251-million deal to buy more Tomahawks from Raytheon Co., a windfall for the military giant and its many subcontractors.
The daily pounding by U.S. bombers, fighters and drones, and the resupply of European and Arab allies that have joined the effort, has cost nearly $1 billion so far, analysts say, and will cost billions more down the road.
Wall Street is paying attention. Shares of major military contractors — Raytheon, Lockheed Martin Corp., Northrop Grumman Corp. and General Dynamics Corp. — all have been trading near all-time highs, outpacing the Standard & Poor’s 500 index of large companies’ stocks.
“There are plenty of reasons to think that defense spending is going to be on the rise again,” said Wayne Plucker, an aerospace analyst with research firm Frost & Sullivan. “Defense companies are not being harmed by the current situation, I can tell you that much.”
The Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a nonpartisan Washington-based think tank, estimates the air campaign could cost $2.4 billion to $3.8 billion per year if the current tempo of airstrikes is maintained.
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 11:13 am
Greg, I appreciate your critique of US policy for my balance. I don’t want to lose balance either way. I will continue to call people on the floor for US critisim without recognizing others role in the problem. It is inevitable the American public will be drawn into the criticism. It is difficult to separate the two. The American public hijacking is nearly complete. I don’t see much difference globally.
ghung on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 11:25 am
Whoops – link to the BBC article, above:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29647871
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 11:38 am
“I’m constantly amazed how many people think the Islamic State or Libya or Iran are “insane.” ”
More of your usual nonsensical twist Plant. I have travelled extensively around the entire globe for over 30 years, and it is not the people of the ME that I find to be insane.
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 11:47 am
Davy,
Unless it is you that is making US foreign policy decisions, or you support those decisions, you shouldn’t be taking the criticism so personally.
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 12:12 pm
Greg, it is strictly balance and fairness I object to. Personal is not the issue. I am atypical anyway so I have never fit in among my peers.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 12:20 pm
GregT — Big congrats on your excellent retort to our resident false accuser and twister-of-words in chief, he who shall not be named. I wish I could keep my responses to that trollish individual so succinct and to the point when he/she/it pulls the same twisting of words and false accusation crap on me. My only possibly valid excuse is that my posts are usually done at a moment’s notice in between other tasks I’m working on, and I sometimes don’t put enough thought into what I’m saying before I blast it out. I’m going to try to learn a little from you on this topic.
So, just to clarify, you never said, or suggested, or even remotely indicated that you think the Islamic State or Libya or Iran are “insane”?
Now I guess we know why Plant is daily accusing and blaming Obama for whatever problems exist in the world. To Plant, whoever he doesn’t like at the moment is guilty of whatever he wants to believe they are guilty of — simple!
But speaking of crazy and insane, there are plenty of those in every country in the world. As the economic and resource pressures build, we can expect more and more people to just completely lose it. There are many examples of that here in America where, according to one study I read earlier, we how have a mass shooting every 60 or so days, since 2011. We have lots and lots of home grown sleepers right here in America that are just waiting to pop. Crazy and insane are not based on nationality — despite what the MSM and TPTB want us all to believe.
Like I said in my earlier post on this thread, we can most definitely expect to see a LOT more crazy and insane everywhere as the pressure builds. After all, we’re dealing with humans here, and brute force violence has always been one of the first go-to options for conflict resolution where humans are concerned. Some things never change.
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 12:32 pm
Davy,
Other than Noob, who is clearly delusional, I don’t see people here unfairly attacking the US citizenry. It is the policies of a corrupt elite that I personally see as the problem.
By all means one should stand up for his country and his fellow citizens, but there is a big difference between the US as a country of informed citizens, and the US as a globalist, empirical, war machine. Sadly, many Americans cannot distinguish the difference anymore.
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 12:54 pm
Greg, I am caught between the struggle for balance with a flag waving 1%er family and this board. Try putting that into the equation. Maybe we could call it balance compression. I am forced into a two front war which cannot be won. We are now in a zone on imbalances to fight that is futile.
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 1:44 pm
Davy,
Are you not also caught between self sufficiency and ‘flag waving’? If nationalism is in your best interests, why bother ‘prepping’? It seems to me that the ‘war’ has more than two fronts, no?
Northwest Resident on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 1:57 pm
GregT, Davy — If I can add my two cents worth.
I am very close to Davy’s position on this. I feel a strong loyalty and attachment to the America that I was raised to believe in — the land of the free, home of the brave, with liberty and justice for all — the country where justice and rule of law presides over a population that chooses its own leaders at the ballot box. But that America has been hijacked by special interests, as we all know or should know. It no longer exists, and in its place is a hollow shell with a crumbling veneer, a mere illusion of what it used to be. But that America that once existed is still in my heart and in my dreams. The many criticisms and insults leveled against America and Americans on this board greatly irritate me because I know that it is not Americans or even “America” that is responsible for so much of the problems we see — those are the responsibility of the financial mafias and really bad people who have teamed up to take over the America that once was. Like Davy, I seek balance, a recognition that there are much greater powers at work here than just America or the POTUS. The things done in America’s name are not the desire or will of its citizens, and not their fault. We are all just along for the ride, and that’s the way it is.
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 1:58 pm
Greg, I prep because I can’t count on a silver spoon up my ass. I dispise nationalism of all colors. I practice relative sacrifice. I gave up the 1%er life to live a more normal existence I believe would be not far from many of you. I still maintain my place I the family. I argue balance and question their lifestyles in subtle ways. I am a devils advocate for the 1%er family of mine.
JuanP on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 2:13 pm
Guys, Don’t take my criticism personally. In this last year, my perspective about the US government actions at home and abroad has deteriorated.
The people won’t change in the right direction in time without proper leadership. The leaders we have couldn’t be more lacking.
I am angry because I have reached the conclusion that it would be best for my wife, in the long run, if we return to Uruguay. I really didn’t want to go back.
We just have a horrible government at the time in the US.
Davy, if all Americans were like you, Ghung, Paulo, Mak, or NR, we would be great, my problem is with the people in power, whoever they may be, if there is someone in power. Otherwise, I guess I would say I am pissed at the system itself, and the way it has been corrupted.
I am pissed at humans in general, but since this Russia bashing thing started, I can’t believe in the US government at all any longer. I can tell they are lying, these guys are not good at it. I am deeply disappointed with their actions this year.
Davy on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 2:31 pm
Juan, I can only handle a few days with my family because I get a bullshit overload. I need to get back the farm so I can eliminate the tv, radio, shit food, and electronic devises. Modern life is a constant irritation to me because it is detached from reality and the truth. So, yea, Juan I am there with you for slightly different reasons. NR, thanks for your 2 cents. It is sure good to have friends here.
Northwest Resident on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 2:34 pm
JuanP — I second your thoughts.
The leadership of America has been fatally compromised. During the days of plentiful cheap oil there was enough gravy spread around to hide that fact. As the plentiful cheap oil dries up, it exposes the maggots and cockroaches that have been hiding there all along. Seeing those vermin clearly and realizing what they have been up to and what they are currently up to can only result in dismay and disillusionment.
You’ve got an awesome piece of property to go to, JuanP. I’m not sure what is holding you back. Something I’m sure you think about all the time.
noobtube on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 4:00 pm
Why is it Americans can never take responsibility for their actions?
They elected these “leaders” and did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop anything they did.
Support the troops.
Support the police.
Support the teachers.
Get a “good” job.
Mind your own business.
Don’t get involved.
Nothing about Americans has ever been about anything other than getting rich, living the good life, and looking out for #1, at the expense of the innocent.
Americans are THE definition of the PSYCHOPATHIC scumbag lifestyle.
It’s never Americas fault.
Let’s blame the Africans, Arabs, or Asians. Let’s blame everyone, anyone but ourselves for our own degenerate behavior (ie the American Way).
Some are getting out of the madness of America. So, they will miss a lot of the hell that is coming.
The rest have a suffering barreling down on them for being backsliding, cowardly, excuse-making, not-my-fault, greedy, conniving, selfish, childish punks.
Yes, I do HATE and DESPISE AMERICA and AMERICANS and everything they represent.
One of the few people on this planet brave enough to admit it.
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 4:19 pm
Noob
Of course you can blame yourself for your degenerate behavior. No one is going to stop you.
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 4:24 pm
To get back on topic, IMHO its perfectly rational for Egypt to bomb the Islamists in Libya. The Islamists, whether they are called ISIS, al Qaida, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, etc. are all trans-national movements. Islamists in Libya help Islamists in the Caliphate in Syria, who in turn would help Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Egypt has every right to defend itself against the Islamists of every stripe.
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 5:01 pm
Plant,
Many of the people fighting who you are calling ‘Islamists’ are also ‘Islamists’. Contrary to the western media propaganda, Islam itself is not the problem.
noobtube on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 5:06 pm
Still trying to figure out how what is happening in the Middle East (or Africa or East Asia) is any business of Americans.
But, Americans know-it-all because of their “exceptionalism” (and Jesus) that everyone else is supposed to accept.
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 5:08 pm
Noob,
You really should seek professional help. Filling yourself full of anger and hatred will not do anything, other than lead to depression and self destruction.
No need to continue feeling so isolated and depressed. Your psychological disorder is well understood, and treatable.
J-Gav on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 5:36 pm
France, where I live, was much more involved than they’re generally given (dis)credit for in the Libyan debacle.
They not only bombed the place (for humanitarian purposes of course) but also ensured, through their ‘special services,’ that Ghaddafi never came to trial. Seems he’d given a large sum of money for Monsieur Sarkozy’s presidential campaign. I don’t know what he got in return (other than a death warrant and the fleeting privilege of camping out in a large tent with a concubine or three in the garden of the Elysée Palace for a few days). So go the power games when the tide turns …
J-Gav on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 5:42 pm
And oh, by the way, lest you forget, the Libyan take-down included no plan to secure the former Headman’s store of arms – which consequently led to the raids and recuperation of said arms by extremists, who then proceeded to attack Mali, leading to the French intervention there …
Interesting world, isn’t it?
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 7:08 pm
Greg T:
Sunni “islamists” are fighting Shia “Islamists” in Iraq and Syria. Egypt is currently not run by Islamists, so when Egypt bombs the Islamists in Libya it is not a case of Islamists fighting Islamists.
Get it now?
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 7:39 pm
Plant,
I understand that reading comprehension is not one of your stronger points. Please re-read what I wrote above several times before implanting your foot even more firmly into your mouth.
Pay particular attention to the first word in the following sentence:
“MANY of the people fighting who you are calling ‘Islamists’ are also ‘Islamists’.”
I’ve even capitalized it for you.
Oh, and judging from many of your comments here, I probably ‘got it’ more by the time I finished grade school, than you are likely to ‘get it’ in your entire life.
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 7:46 pm
Hi GregT
I see you still don’t “get it.” This thread is about the Egyptian attack on Islamists in Libya. The Egyptian government is NOT Islamist—the militia being bombed in Libya IS Islamist.
Get it now?
PS: I’m really not interested in your grade school curriculum—- lets just talk about the thread topic, OK?
CHEERS!
GregT on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 7:56 pm
90% of all Egyptians are Islamist. The current president of Egypt is an Islamist. Islam is the religion most practiced in Egypt.
Obviously YOU still don’t get it.
Plantagenet on Thu, 16th Oct 2014 8:01 pm
Greg T
There is a difference between a Muslim and an Islamist. Please learn the meaning of the word “Islamist” and check back.