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Page added on May 15, 2016
We are all Albertans now
It would be easy–too easy–to point to the wildfires which have devastated huge areas of northern Alberta near Fort McMurray, the hub of tar sands mining in Canada, and say that Albertans are reaping what they have sown. Yes, it’s true that climate change is coming to one of the very areas which is contributing disproportionately to climate change and with catastrophic results.
The source of the current catastrophe is that the boreal forest which surrounds the tar sands has been turned into a tinderbox because of increasingly warm, dry weather that used to be uncharacteristic of this area of Alberta. But, what is happening in Alberta was predicted decades ago to be one of the consequences of unchecked global warming.
Having said all that, we should remember that the warming we are experiencing today is actually the result of greenhouse gases dumped into the atmosphere as of 40 years ago or so. (The analysis cited gives a range of 25 to 50 years, a lag related to what is called the thermal inertia of the oceans.) If this is the case, what Albertans are experiencing today has almost nothing to do with the climate effects of tar sands exploitation since there was very little production from Alberta’s tar sands that long ago.
What this means, of course, is that there will be much worse to come even if today we were to reduce to zero all greenhouse gas emissions and other factors which are raising worldwide temperature.
The problems we are already seeing such as increased flooding in some places; increased drought in others; sea-level rise that is already swallowing islands; the rapid change in climate zones (which affects what we can grow in those zones); and myriad effects on plants and animals around the globe as their habitat shifts or disappears–all of these are just the beginning. And, there is no reason to believe that global greenhouse emissions and other causes of climate change such as deforestation will reverse their trends anytime soon.
When thinking about the Alberta wildfires, there is something else we must remember. Tar sands oil combined with oil from America’s fracking boom have been the only reason that oil supplies worldwide have been able to grow. The very sources of oil that have been vilified as a new assault on climate have until recently found ample demand for their product. With production from both these sources now contracting due to low prices, we may in the not-to-distant future face oil price spikes.
As a global society, we still want all the conveniences which oil provides without the bad side effects. As such we must now consider ourselves Albertans no matter where we live and understand our complicity in their plight–and, why their plight is becoming our own.
However carbon-intensive extracting oil from the tar sands may be, shutting down one source of oil is hardly a solution to the climate problem. Our challenge is to shut down our own demand for oil and other fossil fuels. That strategy would make high-cost oil sources such as the Canadian tar sands and America’s deep shale deposits its first victims and accomplish through demand reduction what all the public protests to date have failed to achieve.
78 Comments on "We are all Albertans now"
penury on Sun, 15th May 2016 11:17 am
A lot of truth, and the fact that no solutions are provided makes it even better. There are no solutions, the mass die off will continue.
Davy on Sun, 15th May 2016 12:18 pm
What Albertans and everyone else are experiencing is the culmination of our modern culture at a breaking point. It is more than climate change and really is everything about us. Forget who did what back then and look at how we are living right now. What is our social narrative? What are our morals, values, and aspirations? How are we corrupted and in denial? If you reach back in history for scapegoats you will never find the strength to change the now. Your strength will be directed at retribution accusations, and recrimination.
Not that it matter because we are in a catch 22 trap with no exit for modern civilization without a significant rebalance of consumption and population. Both are the culprit and they both magnify and reinforce the other. There are few modern humans choosing to downsize and shrink their affluence. Poor people aspire to improve. Rich people aspire to get richer and or maintain affluence. This is human nature and I see no evidence human nature will change. NONE.
We are barreling into a crisis at multiple levels. We shall see what we are capable of when we really get into trouble. Currently everything is working good enough to say we have a global system. Messes are everywhere and we are barely getting along but we are still a functioning global people. Just wait until globalism is not functioning then let’s see how and what we are capable of.
We don’t know the particulars of how things are going to shake out. What is going on now is nothing more or less than an ecosystem in flux. This ecosystem is global and it is primarily a system in flux from human forcing. This forcing represent the results of human growth and innovation. Our civilization is driven to exploit and until we change that basic drive nothing good is going to come out of our civilization. We have tragedy of the commons with situations like is found in gaming theory known as the “Prisoners dilemma” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma. We are simple out of scale with ourselves and our environment and until we get back in scale we will not have a happy ending.
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 12:43 pm
It’s not about barrel counts. It’s about a denier mentality and the fact that the cancer monkey’s have no problem turning a chunk of the great boreal (worlds lungs) into Mordor for a few dollars more.
The tar sands are a fucking abomination.
“all the conveniences which oil provides”
Shit like jetting the family of 5 to Disneyland every year is not a convenience – it’s a dopamine orgy for the over privileged and not necessary at all. There are a million other high carbon, biosphere destroying examples of what apologists for the over privileged call “conveniences”. Tell the truth Kirk – whitey just don’t give a shit about anything other than his immediate pleasure (dopamine hits) long term consequences be damned. All the while the capitalist denier propaganda machine drills a steady stream of lies into the sheep’s head telling them it’s necessary and they deserve it. Makes it so easy since 99.9% of them go through life silently – terrified to rock the boat lest their tribe shuns them. A normal reaction for evolved social monkey’s, which is why the high tech propagandists are able to manipulate enough sheep so easily.
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 12:56 pm
BTW Kirk Cobb, you’re a little behind the newer research (2 years ago).
Looks like the Alberta cancer monkey’s are guilty as charged after all eh?.
CO2 warming effects felt just a decade after being emitted
http://phys.org/news/2014-12-co2-effects-felt-decade-emitted.html
CO2 Takes Just 10 Years to Reach Planet’s Peak Heat
http://www.climatecentral.org/news/co2-emissions-peak-heat-18394
Study with a short video Abstract.
Maximum warming occurs about one decade after a carbon dioxide emission
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/9/12/124002;jsessionid=9A48F3369E9B05C1FF5E0506EDCAF3CB.c4.iopscience.cld.iop.org
Hawkcreek on Sun, 15th May 2016 1:01 pm
“But there is absolutely no evidence of global warming – it is just cycles of nature.”
I hear that kind of crap from people all the time, and when I unload on them, I do get shunned. I kind of like that, though, so it isn’t a big deal.
I already live off grid, but I am constantly trying to figure out ways to keep my remaining conveniences – such as my chain saw and tiller. May have to go to a diesel chain saw, and start growing an oil crop some day.
Sissyfuss on Sun, 15th May 2016 1:06 pm
I was perusing the Arctic News Blog and it exhibited a graph showing a huge and intense blob of methane covering the greater area of Fort Mac on May 3rd at the start of the massive conflagration. The fire chief stated later of never seeing a fire of such destructive quality before. And now scientist Malcolm Light tells us that because of the clathrates released and the melting permafrost amongst other feedbacks, we have between
just 8 and 15 years left before mass extinction. Have a nice day!
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 1:08 pm
NASA temperature data shows last month was hottest April on record
The April figures continue the remarkably warm start to 2016
“The April figures continued the remarkably warm start to 2016, with each month among a handful over the most abnormally hot months in more than 130 years of global figures.
Indeed, one expert said he believed that new data due to be released next week by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration will show the last 12 consecutive months all broke records.
Eric Holthaus is a meteorologist who writes for Slate, told The Independent: “It’s scary. I’m at the point where I don’t know what will happen next. We knew an El Nino would impact things, but I don’t think anyone expected this jump.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/nasa-data-shows-last-month-was-hottest-april-on-record-a7029806.html
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 1:15 pm
Bangladesh Lightning Storms Leave 64 Dead In Just 48 Hours, 90 Killed By Lightning Strikes Since March
http://www.inquisitr.com/3096340/bangladesh-lightning-storms-leave-64-dead-in-just-48-hours-90-killed-by-lightning-strikes-since-march/
Lightning May Increase with Global Warming
New findings suggest lightning strikes may increase by 12 percent for every degree of warming
“…lightning is the trigger for more than half of U.S. wildfires, putting pressure on human infrastructure as well as natural ecosystems.”
“The results make physical sense given that both heavy precipitation and storm energy are related to the amount of water vapor available in the atmosphere and one of the main accepted results of a warming atmosphere is also a moister one. Essentially, more moisture suggests more vigorous thunderstorms and so more lightning.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lightning-may-increase-with-global-warming/
GregT on Sun, 15th May 2016 1:26 pm
“From November 2015 to April 2016, global temperatures over land and oceans were 1.48°C (or 2.664°F) higher than in 1890-1910 (left map of the image below). On land, it was 1.99°C (or 3.582°F) warmer (right map of the image below).”
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/–vSJrN4yMJ4/VzgXBJ7rrPI/AAAAAAAAUlA/J0S6ba2y4xkKT8FYn7VYnR2ad9rOT8RhQCLcB/s1600/amaps2.png
“Since some 0.3°C (0.54°F) greenhouse warming had already taken place by the year 1900, warming was well above the 1.5°C (or 2.7°F) guardrail the Paris Agreement had pledged wouldn’t be crossed.”
“The situation is dire and calls for comprehensive and effective action”
http://arctic-news.blogspot.ca
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 4:27 pm
Is it hot in Israel? Jew betcha it is.
Record-breaking heat wave hits Israel, sparks fires
” Eilat in the South hit 115 degrees Fahrenheit, breaking a May 1980 record of 113.4. In Jerusalem, temperatures reached 98.6 during the day and were expected to drop to only 82.4 at night. Tel Aviv was at 102 during the day and was to fall to 77 at night.”
http://www.jta.org/2016/05/15/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/record-breaking-heat-wave-hits-israel-sparks-fires
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 4:29 pm
Just like the Great Barrier Reef, Australia’s mangroves are dying too; Mangrove death may contribute to global warming
http://www.ibtimes.com.au/just-great-barrier-reef-australias-mangroves-are-dying-too-mangrove-death-may-contribute-global
Kurt Cobb on Sun, 15th May 2016 4:58 pm
Apneaman,
Thanks for pointing me to the latest research on lag times for the effects of carbon dioxide. Very helpful to know that.
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 5:13 pm
Welcome. Ignore my ranting. Appreciate your work.
Survivalist on Sun, 15th May 2016 5:14 pm
http://attheedgeoftime.blogspot.ca/2016/05/the-mystery-of-petroleum-stocks.html
Survivalist on Sun, 15th May 2016 5:31 pm
@Hawcreek
Not sure about diesel chainsaws. Never heard or seen one and I’ve seen lots of saws. Never even seen a 4 stroke chainsaw. Just 2 strokes. A 4 stroke diesel chainsaw would weight a lot. I have a diesel generator for back up power and I have an electric chainsaw for bucking up logs in the yard. I use my regular 2 stroke mix gas saw to fall them in my back 40 but once I’ve dragged the logs into the yard I use electric to buck ’em up. I’m on a hydro power grid. Only time the power is down is when a tree somewhere falls on the power line but the powers usually back up in a few hours.
onlooker on Sun, 15th May 2016 5:32 pm
Indeed we are all Albertans, We are all stuck on a planet that is dying. http://www.uga.edu/about_uga/profile/earths-battery-draining-fast-sustain-life/
Earth’s ‘battery’ draining too fast to sustain life –
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 5:53 pm
Climate Scientists Erring on the Side of Least Drama/b>
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-scientists-esld.html
Why are climate scientists so conservative? – Naomi Oreskes, UC San Diego – Schneider Symposium 2011 – 5 min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ur_I3mfqvk
Not just climate scientists either. Science is conservative by definition.
makati1 on Sun, 15th May 2016 6:14 pm
We seem to have reached the hockey stick part of the climate change graph. How long before the planet is not hospitable to life? 50 years? 20? 10? 5? We shall see.
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 6:14 pm
Distant Planet Terrified It Might Be Able To Someday Support Human Life
“CONSTELLATION VELA—Claiming that the mere thought is an “absolute nightmare,” WR 67c, a terrestrial planet from the distant Gamma Velorum star system, expressed its profound terror Wednesday at the possibility of one day gaining the capacity to sustain human life.
The 5.2-billion-year-old celestial body, which is located roughly 1,100 light years from Earth, said that for both its own sake and that of its entire solar system, it can only hope to never possess the necessary planetary characteristics and chemical elements needed to support either a deep-space human outpost or, more gravely, an entire human colony.
“Luckily, with my high levels of atmospheric sulfur dioxide, methane, and radon, there’s no way any human could survive on my surface for more than a few seconds,” said WR 67c, adding that it is “incredibly lucky” to have developed extremely violent and widespread volcanism in addition to its poisonous atmosphere. “But I don’t know, what if I produce a magnetic field that blocks out stellar wind and cosmic radiation? What if I develop an axial tilt that fosters a mild global climate? It’s terrifying to admit, but my surface temperature already sometimes drops to 120 degrees Fahrenheit at night, and their species can technically survive in that.”
“Stuff like that really freaks me out,” the extrasolar planet continued. “The real doomsday scenario would be someday acquiring a breathable atmosphere rich with oxygen and ultraviolet-absorbing ozone. At that point, I might as well just hurl myself at the nearest black hole and be done with it.”
more
http://www.theonion.com/article/distant-planet-terrified-it-might-be-able-to-somed-35179
makati1 on Sun, 15th May 2016 6:21 pm
The Philippines is seldom in the world news, and that is good, but we are experiencing temperatures about 3C (5F) above normal for the last months or so. Also, we are about 5 inches below normal precipitation for this month, so far. It has not rained in Manila for over a month now. Could just be el nino but we shall see. The farm on the Pacific coast has been getting some rain, but not the usual amount. Water management will have top priority when we move there.
JuanP on Sun, 15th May 2016 6:36 pm
Good article. I am very worried by this year’s weather, particularly in the Arctic. The problems with the jet stream, methane emissions, and heat waves are very concerning. It looks like most of the Arctic Ocean will melt this summer.
If the atmospheric jet stream or the Gulf Stream ocean current stop working, then the whole global weather patterns would most likely be disrupted in a very radical way, particularly in the Northern Hemisphere.
JuanP on Sun, 15th May 2016 6:44 pm
Here in Miami Beach we no longer have anything that we could call normal weather. Rains and storms, in particular, have become extremely irregular and unpredictable, and rains tend to fall in huge downpours once or twice a year. It is becoming increasingly hard to grow food without irrigation in Florida.
This last winter many local farms suffered catastrophic flooding and lost most of their winter crop, which down here is the most important crop of the year for most farmers. A South Florida farmer that has a bad winter, will have a guaranteed bad year.
Davy on Sun, 15th May 2016 8:58 pm
here some news for ya Makati Bill:
“Philippines: Duterte vows to bring back death penalty”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36297583
Philippines President-elect Rodrigo Duterte has vowed to reintroduce capital punishment and give security forces permission to shoot to kill.
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 10:17 pm
Sounds like the P’s have the potential to become the 52nd state. Just need to get really fat, stupid and gobble anti depressants out of their Soma PEZ dispensers all day and they’ll be a shoe in.
makati1 on Sun, 15th May 2016 10:28 pm
Ap, the difference is that the Ps Congress has people who will oppose many things he wants to do. He is no different than any other President. Campaign promises he can never fulfill.
This is a predominantly Catholic country where most still practice their religion. Not even close to the Failed States of America. But, if you do not live here, you wouldn’t know that. If he can get the Ps out of the clutches of the Empire, it would be a good thing. We shall see.
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 10:35 pm
If they are doing this now and getting bolder by the day just imagine what they will take once tshtf? Under martial law they will just start stripping solar panels off peoples roofs. Home of the free.
Policing for Profit Visualized: How Big Is Civil Forfeiture
“Civil forfeiture laws pose some of the greatest threats to property rights in the nation today, too often making it easy and lucrative for law enforcement to take and keep property—regardless of the owner’s guilt or innocence. This updated and expanded second edition of Policing for Profit: The Abuse of Civil Asset Forfeiture makes the case for reform, grading the civil forfeiture laws of each state and the federal government, documenting remarkable growth in forfeiture activity across the country, and highlighting a worrisome lack of transparency surrounding forfeiture activity and expenditures from forfeiture funds.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhAa2vep1z0
Apneaman on Sun, 15th May 2016 10:41 pm
Welcome to 1984
“The artifice of corporate totalitarianism has been exposed. The citizens, disgusted by the lies and manipulation, have turned on the political establishment. But the game is not over. Corporate power has within its arsenal potent forms of control. It will use them. As the pretense of democracy is unmasked, the naked fist of state repression takes its place. America is about—unless we act quickly—to get ugly.”
“This moment in American history is what Antonio Gramsci called the “interregnum”—the period when a discredited regime is collapsing but a new one has yet to take its place. There is no guarantee that what comes next will be better. But this space, which will close soon, offers citizens the final chance to embrace a new vision and a new direction.”
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/welcome_to_1984_20160514
If the populous were to wake up I would be shocked. Bunch of stunned cunts if you ask me.
makati1 on Sun, 15th May 2016 11:14 pm
“I readily acknowledge a universe of reasons why the coming catastrophe can, and will, be denied or downplayed by those who are certain this could never happen (‘they’ will never let that happen) will assume we are all doomed anyway (what’s the sense, we’re all gonna die) or are simply comfortably numb (don’t Bogart that SSRI my friend). In reality there are always a million reasons not to act and barely one or two to do so.
As long as the herd is grazing (relatively) peacefully, from a psychological point of view it is much safer to burrow deeper into the perceived safety of the herd than to strike off on a contrarian path. Within the mind of the denier, the apathetic and the depressed, what is coveted above all else is affirmation from the herd we are doing what is best. First we lie to ourselves and then we seek affirmation from external ‘authorities’ that our lie is in fact truth. And the ultimate authority is the mindless herd.
Few have the stomach to walk the lonely path of the contrarian; fewer still have the stomach to lie to themselves and not seek external affirmation of their lie. Truth is self evident and needs neither confirmation nor affirmation. But the lie is voracious in its desperate need to be constantly confirmed and the liar affirmed.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-15/rogue-wave
A long, but easy read. Worth your time, I think.
Dredd on Mon, 16th May 2016 4:45 am
A paper published a couple of years ago indicated that there is a different delay time.
The gist of that paper was that it is incremental, not all at once:
“In other words, the impact of green house gases does not take place 100% at a certain time, or in the exact same percentage of impact over the ~10-40 year time lag as you can see @ the example hypothetical graph just to the upper right; which also has a link to some graphs in the IOP Science paper mentioned above.]”
(Time Keeps on Slippin’ Slippin’ Slippin’ In From The Past)
Anonymous on Mon, 16th May 2016 6:27 am
Billions in dollars in damages around fart Mac, and the uS tar-sands plants remain untouched. If Nature bats last, she kind of struck out on this one. And who are ‘albertans’ demand pony up for for all those damages? After they drain the insurance companies dry, it be the gov’ts turn of course. IE taxpayers. Not the uS oil corporations, or pipeline operators, or even uS auto-corps.
Albertans are just low-rent americant wannabes. Like amerikkkants, they talk a lot about freedom fries, and independence from gubmint interference and insist(loudly), between belches, that alberta subsidizes the rest of the country’s social services for all those all the freeloading hippies outside alberta’s borders. Not true of course, the subsidizing part. But now that things have gone sideways, all those neo-liberal free-trade and enterprise bertans sure are crying for daddy to help buy them a new town…
Davy on Mon, 16th May 2016 7:36 am
I am still trying to understand how a Canadian like Anonymous can blame tar sands on the US. Cowards that can’t look into the mirror do these things. Since Anonymous is only in his mid-twenties this is understandable. He still has another twenty years of growing up before experience has taught him enough lessons.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 8:30 am
I have always said, biodiversity is overrated.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-16/great-barrier-reef-coal-dust-kills-coral-report-shows/7419632
onlooker on Mon, 16th May 2016 8:57 am
Biodiversity overrated what type of warped mind would utter such a thing. First off it is via biodiversity that life can continue forward in the face of unexpected challenges and stresses on and of the environment. Second, in case you didnt notice we eat animals and plants their decline ultimately will mean our decline. Third, healthy ecosystems depend a organisms, no organisms no viable ecosystems.
makati1 on Mon, 16th May 2016 9:04 am
onlooker, Practical is in the same league as Boat. Nuff said.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 9:09 am
It was sarcasm, just posting a link about coal destroying an aquatic ecosystem.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 9:12 am
O no I don’t have Makatis respect. waahhh. Bill you should say its gonna be a hot summer like you have been saying for over a decade, because this time it may actually be accurate.
Kenz300 on Mon, 16th May 2016 9:16 am
Climate Change is real….. we will all be impacted by it……
Exxon’s Climate Change Cover-Up Is ‘Unparalleled Evil,’ Says Activist
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/exxon-evil-bill-mckibben_561e7362e4b028dd7ea5f45f?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=Green§ion=green
JuanP on Mon, 16th May 2016 9:59 am
Onlooker “Biodiversity overrated what type of warped mind would utter such a thing.” many highly urbanized people in today’s world think like that, particularly amongst the rich. My mother would be a typical example here. My mother doesn’t like the beach because it has sand and the water is salty. She doesn’t like the country or anything wilder than a mansion’s properly manicured garden. And the garden is to be looked at from indoors through the windows and to have a crew of landscapers following your directions, not to spend time in.
If it was up to people like them, they would gladly extinguish any species that annoys them in any way. They don’t understand that they need these biodiverse ecosystems for humans to thrive. And they are the ones with the power and money, so the rest of us are screwed.
Davy on Mon, 16th May 2016 10:29 am
PM, you have my respect. I appreciate a young person trying to do things different than the status quo.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 10:38 am
Thanks man, I appreciate your contributions. Keep up the good work with the farming.
GregT on Mon, 16th May 2016 10:42 am
“PM, you have my respect.”
Translation:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
onlooker on Mon, 16th May 2016 10:50 am
Juan if it was up to these people we would only have a world of humans and then only some humans
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 10:54 am
With how often I get you guys worked up talking up technology, or putting a contrarian view up just for the sake of discussion and debate, I’ll take whatever positivity I can, after all the subject matter the site covers tends to be painful realism in a world built on head in the clouds attitudes. Everyone on here has something different to contribute, I just have got to give shit back when someone jumps down my throat for saying something sarcastic, that did not come off as sarcastic, or any of the other crap I say on here that gets people going. 🙂
Davy on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:02 am
Nope Greg, but you and Makati Bill think that way that is why you made the comment. PM, is doing good work that I wish more young people were doing.
GregT on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:05 am
Practical,
People jumped on your above comment because they thought that you were serious. If you were being sarcastic, then they would be agreeing with you. Why do you feel the need for ‘giving shit back’, to those who hold the same views as yourself?
GregT on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:10 am
“you and Makati Bill think that way that is why you made the comment.”
You’re putting words into people’s mouths again Davy.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:12 am
Greg, I just figured in today’s day and age, one would assume everything that comes out of a young adults head would be full of sarcasm and cynicism, its the only free coping mechanism out there. 🙂
Call me an idiot or a cynical douche all you want, don’t try to lump me in with someone else. Only so much you can know about someone threw messages on the internet.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:15 am
Us millennials just want to be unique, hence why I know plenty of people with more money spent on tattoos than their apartments. Of course I think biodiversity is vital, I am the one who is constantly overstating the capabilities of permaculture and small scale farming to feed huge numbers of people.
GregT on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:27 am
I’m not calling you an idiot, or anything else for that matter Practical. I’ve already stated that I think that you’re miles ahead of most your age these days. When one makes a statement that is misunderstood by others, the logical reaction would be to clear up the misunderstanding, not to ‘give shit back’. People were disagreeing with your statement. If you were being sarcastic, that means that they were in agreement with you.
PracticalMaina on Mon, 16th May 2016 11:28 am
Your right