Page added on June 4, 2013
One of my two talks at The Age of Limits 2013 was on Communities that Abide. It was a review of best practices, based on the experience of historical communities that are stable or growing, comprise multiple generations, manage to hold on to their young people, and have a distinctive way of life that is in many cases more sustainable and resilient than that of the surrounding population. In many cases they also have far better outcomes, in terms of much lower rates of crime, depression, substance abuse, spousal/child abuse, murder/suicide and so on. Interestingly, while there are numerous profound differences between them, there are also vast areas of similarity. These similarities may turn out to comprise a set of cultural universals exhibited by all or most communities that stand the test of time. While I am too early in my research to reach such a sweeping conclusion, the possibility has me intrigued. I will be exploring this subject in detail over the following weeks. But first I must take out some garbage.
The talk went well while I powered through my (pared down) stack of index cards on the subject—pared down from the three-hour seminar I taught at the North House Folk School in Minnesota a few weeks back, which also went well. But at the conference, after I started taking questions, there erupted a bit of a shitstorm. One woman in the audience asked me why all the communities I brought up are patriarchal (they are not), and couldn’t I find an example that was a matriarchy. I dug deep, drew a complete and total blank, and answered: “Because there are none.” After that, feminist rhetoric was flying fast and furious for a while. I tried to extricate myself by saying that on such matters I follow the women I am close to, who are Russian. Russian women have participated in a 70-year experiment in gender egalitarianism, and concluded that it was a failure. Modern Russian women have no use for American old style “radical feminism.” That made things even worse. One agent provocateur (Gail) decided to raise the temperature some more by asking me what I thought of Pussy Riot. I answered that they are idiots. (They desecrated a place of public worship for the sake of a futile political gesture, and are now rotting in jail instead of bringing up their children.) This made several women physically jump to their feet. Eventually one woman pointed out that, after all, I was just presenting information from my research, not taking any sort of ideological stance, but she went on looking upset anyway. After the talk ended, a bunch of women were skulking around hissing at me. The follow-up was characterized by Orren, the organizer, as a “circular firing squad.” He came up to me after the talk ended and congratulated me on still having both my legs, having walked into a minefield. Later he wrote to me:
A worthy subject would be the degree to which [such] corrosive tactics… have destroyed progressive groups and communities over the years. I call it the technology of victimhood and it is used by many groups and individuals to politicize their agendas. I have seen it over and over, and folks I know who actually organize real humans (as opposed to histrionic chattering on the pixel box) have shared similar experiences… It has been my experience in over 30 years of progressive organizing that some people can only participate by instead organizing “The Circular Firing Squad” that seems to afflict progressive groups. All part of the puzzle.
Orren contributed many other thoughts, which will take me time to process. I will pick up these themes in subsequent posts.
Later, that same Gail came up with a blog post which contains a number of ad hominem attacks riddled with *cough* inaccuracies. Here is a partial list of them:
Her blog’s comments section is a sort of Land of the Lost: people who inhabit the comments sections of unmoderated blogs, and who are perpetually miffed that no half-decent blog will post their comments.
But why all this noise? Should we take it as a “demand to be heard” by some women (who apparently see themselves as a separate political constituency from the men)? If so, they don’t seem to have asked correctly. But it could be something else entirely. Here is some more hard-won wisdom from Orren:
Communities are often seen as threats, by many actors, for many reasons. Socially radical communities are perceived as threatening simply because their ideas can shatter an individual’s existing paradigms. Knowing that a community is all about defining the boundary between the internal and the external, compromising a community is about manipulating that boundary. To speak in terms of the well understood techniques of state action against activist communities, one can pierce the boundary by inserting actors intended to disrupt the internal workings of the community. An easier means is to disrupt the ability of the community to interact with the external by framing the community in such a way as to prevent the free flow of energy/resources through its boundary; in this case, by alienating people who might otherwise be supportive.
The classic means of attacking a community’s external relations is through the use of a social taboo or sacred cow that it is alleged to have violated. As Goebbels pointed out, the trick is to frame the attack in such a way as to use a social assumption that cannot or will not be examined, to isolate the community from external social commerce. Better yet if the attack can employ words and labels whose meanings also cannot or will not be examined. Finally, Goebbels’ central insight: appeal to the intellectual prejudice of your audience, relying upon the fact that people will prefer to believe the mistruth that plays to their baseline assumptions. The famous Big Lie.
This is why every successful community I’ve looked at knows how to exclude (shun, expel) people. Every successful community jealously safeguards its separateness from the surrounding society. This is critical to their survival and for achieving much better outcomes for their members than the surrounding society. In my understanding, these practices must also extend to the family, the extended family being a microcosm of community. In particular, I believe that women must be given the option of being sheltered from the surrounding sick society, so that they may stay healthy and give birth to and raise healthy children. It is less critical to shelter men, although having them serve in the military or other organizations specializing in brutality and murder is certainly not a good idea, and even too much involvement with the corporate realm is often quite damaging to the human spirit. This is probably why almost all the successful communities I have looked at are pacifist and refuse to be proletarianized, rejecting the concept of wage labor. As far as the labels of “patriarchy” and “matriarchy” are concerned, the winning label for me is, of course, anarchy—a well-organized, copacetic one. And, sure enough, most of the successful communities I have looked at are, in fact, anarchic in the structure of their self-governance. But most important is their separatism. Their value systems are their own—not yours. Do you wish to “improve” these communities, bringing them more in line with your own value system? Well, there is a word for that sort of activity: persecution.
The women who took offense and spoke up after my talk zeroed in on some specific areas, indicating that the communities I chose as examples of success are in fact intolerable by their standards. Some of these communities do not offer birth control to women, and/or resort to corporal punishment to discipline children, and/or do not give women equal rights, and so on. It’s a good thing I didn’t include any communities that practice polygamy or infanticide, or I would have probably caused a riot (there probably are some polygamous communities that I would consider successful; not sure about infanticide). I did include one group (the Roma) who practice arranged marriage. All of these deviations from the current American politically correct norm are problematic for those who allow themselves to regard others through the lens of their own value system (a common failing). But is that even a valid approach? My approach is to study these communities as if they were a different (sub-)species of hominid. After all, none of you will ever be allowed to interbreed with any of them. Do lions practice polygamy? Yes. Do males kill cubs sired by other males. Yes they do. Does this make them worth emulating? Probably not, but they are still worthy of study, because they are what evolution wrought, and were it not for poaching and habitat destruction (a.k.a. persecution), they’d probably still be a success story. Similarly with human communities that achieve significantly better results than the rest: you may not like them, but then who do you think you are anyway?
I must admit that I haven’t thought about the subject of the future of American feminism before this flared up, being happy enough just ignoring it. It’s not my culture and I’ve always assumed that it’s none of my business. But perhaps I should have given it a bit of thought. Before I married a Russian woman, I had some American girlfriends who had been radicalized by their women’s studies classes and had certain hot button issues that consistently made them blow their cool. When these issues came up, they triggered a psychotic break: in her imagination, I was suddenly transformed from a somewhat ambivalent boyfriend trying to keep the “relationship” together to a patriarchal proto-rapist oppressing not just her but an entire made-up political class (women). I do not want to neglect the interests of American women among my readers. But there is another group whose interests I do not wish to neglect: a sizable chunk of my readership consists of American men who either left the country or married foreign women, in no small part to escape from the ravages caused by the toxic state of gender relations within the US. One tried going the other way, marrying an American woman, then divorcing and promptly moving back to Russia, with new-found respect for the Motherland. I doubt that any of these people are particularly thrilled to see me take up this topic. So, in reading this, I hope you appreciate just what a brave person I am for walking in this particular valley of the shadow of death.
There is a big unintended consequence that results from treating women (or men) as a (fake) political class: it cuts across the real class lines, to the great disadvantage of the lower classes. America’s class war against its lower classes is a permanent, full-spectrum, total war, and it is by this point quite close to total victory. Among its foot-soldiers there are numerous higher-class, educated women ensconced in various official positions who, while supposedly championing the rights of women and children, end up oppressing lower-class, uneducated men. To do so, they rely on the services of America’s oversize criminal-industrial complex, which imprisons a larger share of the population than Stalin did during the height of his purges, with the majority of the inmates male, non-white, uneducated and poor. Add to this the fact that in the US, as women joined the “workforce” (a term full of inane puffery), family incomes stagnated (women’s wages have been subtracted from the men’s) while family costs went up (because domestic services such as child care and food preparation now had to be paid for). The results of all this are plain to see: the US leads the world in the percentage of children brought up fatherless, many of them on public assistance that is becoming precarious. Eventually “men’s liberation” will come and all these inmates will be freed—once the system runs out of money and can no longer spend the $60-80k or so a year it costs to keep someone in jail. Since jail is a deeply dehumanizing experience, the role these freed inmates will play in society upon release is unlikely to be positive. This seems to be the unintended but hardly unexpected consequence of politicizing gender: all fall down.
To be able to criticize, one must first rise above that which you wish to criticize. As I outlined at the beginning of my talk, part of the rationale for looking into communities that work is that America, regarded as a community writ large, does not work. Of all the developed nations, it has highest rates of spousal abuse, child fatalities from parental and other abuse and violence, highest divorce rate, highest teen pregnancy rate, highest rate of STD inflection among teenage girls, highest rates of depression among women, children who have to be medicated into submission to force them to cram for meaningless standardized tests… the list is very long. It is a case study in societal failure. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” (Matthew 7:3) Before you criticize others, you should first reflect on what your own people are like, and, if they are that bad, then perhaps you should just zip it.
One potential comeback is along the following lines: Of course we have the right to criticize; we are not like those other trashy/dark-skinned Americans! We are white, upper-middle-class, Ivy League-educated, we send our children to private schools and our outcomes are as perfect as our pearly-white teeth! (The infamous Gail shared that she has a daughter who owns five horses and rides them every day and a son-in-law who keeps a 50-foot yacht on the Hudson. She lives surrounded by a private 2000-acre estate owned by one of the wealthiest families in America. Sorry to have to bring this up, but I think it’s highly relevant. For 99% of you, you need to know that Gail is not “your people.”) Sure, the 1%ers are a successful community of sorts, but will they abide, given the sour mood of the people and all the guns and ammo they’ve stockpiled? More importantly, their main community-building principles seem to be “pay to join” and “pay as you go,” both of which would take too much money—which they won’t give to us—so it seems like a waste of time to listen to them tell us how wonderful they are and how bad everyone else is.
But the reason I wish to look at communities that abide is not to criticize or to attempt to improve American society at large. That would be futile. My goal is to give individuals, families and small groups of people (of modest means) viable options for the future that they otherwise wouldn’t know existed—options which they will be able to exercise separately from what remains of American society. And the nature of these options will be dictated in large measure by the nature of the conditions that will prevail in as little as a couple of decades. Let us put the question in the context of the Age of Limits conference. The chart below should be familiar by now to all who attended. It is a plot based on Meadows et al. Limits to Growth Report baseline scenario.
Look at the deaths AND BIRTHS curves zooming up into the stratosphere starting in around 2050: births have to rise to make up for much lower life expectancy, even as population dwindles. Those groups that wish to survive will be giving birth early and often, hoping that a few survive. Once cesareans are no longer available, we should expect a lot of those deaths will be in childbirth. Giving birth to and raising a continuous pipeline of children from puberty to menopause (or death, whichever comes first) is very much a biologically-determined, gender-specific role. It should be given plenty of attention, recognition and support. But it seems exceedingly likely to me (and this is just an opinion) that strident feminist rhetoric will go the way of building safety codes, zoning regulations, occupational safety laws, child labor laws, the regulated workweek and all the other inflated standards and unachievable mandates of industrial society. It will be a thorough regression to baseline, which will be hard on people who are used to the idea of endless progress (or, once it fails, instant Apocalypse). Many of them will no doubt insist on making a stand for their hard-won social victories, and this, in turn, will make them a poor choice as crew to take along on this journey.
I have no ideological bone to pick here. I am just interpreting a computer-generated chart based on a mathematical model that is over 30 years old but is turning out to be correct in spades. Also, observe that groups hell-bent on survival (such as the ones I mentioned during my talk) have already jettisoned (or have never taken on board) much of the baggage of progressive society. Of course, communities that don’t wish to abide can ignore all this, at their own peril. It’s an equal-opportunity planet as far as near-term extinction is concerned.
I know that this won’t make a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy all over, but then what did you expect? A trip to Disneyland? So that’s where I’ll leave it for now, and leave it up to you to fill the comment section with whatever substances you wish to fill it with. Get it out of your system, and then we’ll move on to the subject at hand: Communities that Abide.
11 Comments on "Orlov: Communities that Abide (Preamble)"
BillT on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 11:52 am
Perhaps Gail would like to live in ancient Sparta? Any male born into the world was judged and if not found to meet standards, was thrown off of the cliff and left for scavengers to dispose of the body. Too bad, she is about 2,300 years too late. She would probably have fit in well.
J-Gav on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 12:11 pm
Dmitry makes some good points here. I’ll mention two: 1 -the silliness of politicizing gender. Some 30 years ago I was aften asked (by American women)if I was a feminist. My answer was (and is) “No, neither a feminist nor a masculinist. I’m a people-ist.” 2 – The next 20 years will tell a tale of stark change in western society and those who seek to reshape new communities based on the model that is in the process of falling apart, will fail miserably.
dsula on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 1:57 pm
Orlov & Kunstler. Kunstler & Orlov. Can you say Kunstler & Orlov without a smile?
This sounds good: The law offices of Kunstler & Orlov, practicing and preaching doom since 1958.
ian807 on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 2:56 pm
Dsula,
Can you explain how pointing out a problem is “preaching and practicing?”
Exactly?
Jerry McManus on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 7:46 pm
Wow, Orlov didn’t just wander into a minefield, he jumped in head first!
I’m surprised he hasn’t clued into an obvious fact, namely that not unlike a real minefield any attempt to extricate oneself (no matter how well intentioned or self-righteous) will only invariably set off more explosions.
IanC on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 9:39 pm
Other people’s opinions are so inconvenient to us geniuses. 🙂
pauline on Tue, 4th Jun 2013 10:29 pm
Ahh Dimitry,
Pauline (or Pavlina, being Greek, we are practically comrades) here. I sat next to you at breakfast and listened to your intriguing plan to sail away from apocalypse on a boat with your wife and infant.
I loved that! You seemed such a brave and clever man!
So I was surprised when I heard what was going on here in the blogosphere. Say it ain’t so Dimitry. Say you aren’t insulting my daughters (and yours!) and our dear mother Earth!
So, first I wanted to thank you for starting off your presentation on small communities, by honoring the original communistic organization of humans that lasted tens of thousands of years successfully. You did, however, forget to mention the critical aspect of those communistic societies, the key ingredient that made them communistic and successful was that they were matrilineal and feminine centered, as many current day, successful matrilineal societies are. These cultures live in gender equality, and despite the name of the link below “where women rule” these cultures share responsibility between the sexes.
Just off the cuff quickly: http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-rule
I am often intrigued by individuals, male or female, who choose to step out of their field of expertise and present themselves as pseudoexperts on some topic that strikes their fancy at the time. As much of a compliment to the field of choice that might seem to be, I would never give a presentation on nuclear physics or engineering, no matter how thrilled I might be to present a brief dissertation on fission or fusion, whatever it is. My field of experience is in Anthropology and Sociology which is the terrain in which you lumbered into ungracefully.
Which is why I was slightly bemused by your topic of choice as it veered off the fascinating course it started on, communism, and plunged headlong into the same old tired Patriarchal nonsense that got us into this climate/economic/peak oil pickle we’re in.
I grant that people (male or female) often bite off more than they can chew when they are outside their knowledge base and I grant you that much. I know how cool Anthropology is! It’s what I love studying! I wish everyone studied it!
(might be a nicer world)
However, here’s where I really began to lose it with you my friend and please be patient and hear me out. I am not trying to attack you, I’m trying to clarify a condition or situation so there can be understanding.
When you answered Gail’s question “Why aren’t any societies you’re presenting a matriarchy?” and you said “Because there aren’t any.”
I know what you MEANT to say was “I don’t know of any.” You even admitted on your post above “I dug deep, drew a complete and total blank”
I know that’s what shot through your head; a total blank, because there are quite a few matriarchal and matrilineal and matricentral societies still living today, successfully, happily with their men sharing equal responsibility and living in harmony with respect for each other.
Had your field BEEN Anthropology or Sociology and you said “there aren’t any” I would call you a liar, since we know they exist.
I cannot call you a liar since you honestly did not know, and fell back on belief. But I can call you disingenuous and evasive and perhaps fearful. Fearful of looking like a fool who didn’t know something when acting the authority (you were neither a fool nor an authority), so instead made an authoritative assertion. And we all know what happens when we make ass-ertions… Without the proper authority.
You can imagine my disappointment; the great Dimitry Orlov, abandoning his analytical background and mathematical accuracy for an evasive feint and embracing belief.
It would have cheered me to no end to hear the engineer Orlov admit “I don’t know of any.” rather than “there aren’t any.” You could have even said “there aren’t any, that I know of.” It buys you time, and you still get to look cool. But an outright declaration that was incorrect is destined to be fraught with disaster. As you soon found out. Though not disastrous for the reasons you think.
But let me go back a step again, and give you the benefit of the doubt. I’m a forgiving feminazi. (I hear that’s what you call us women these days; tut tut, be nice)
Let’s say you are right about these malecentric patriarchal cultures you esteemed and believed we should all emulate. I grant that I have often dreamed of living a peaceful life like the Amish, but with more sex and less hat and beard… They are a fascinating culture that cary the gene for Schizophrenia but due to their stressless culture and lifestyle there is never the opportunity for that mental disorder to present itself and blossom.
I’ll bet you didn’t know that. 🙂 Sociology!
They also don’t have many of the chemical toxins in their breast milk and fatty tissue that the rest of us city dwellers have. And they have hardly any Autism. Practically a zero rate from what I’ve heard.
Let’s say we agree with you that the Amish culture is fantastic and wonderful and we should all shed our buttons and turn off the electric (we should do that!) and become like the Amish. I don’t disagree with this recommendation, and might happily shed my overly adorned, electric lifestyle for a quiet farm life in a supportive community. HOwever, you took it one step further when you revealed your true belief, which explains why the cultures you presented in your talk were all malecentric patriarchies, when you admitted the following:
“Russian women have participated in a 70-year experiment in gender egalitarianism, and concluded that it was a failure. Modern Russian women have no use for American old style “radical feminism.”
(Oy! it’s up to your ears now, my friend)
And that you believed Pussy Riot are idiots and should rot in jail for desecrating a patriarchal religious site, when they COULD be home raising their children.
(My 24 year old daughter would probably tear you a new one if she heard that AND you’re completely under water now )
My friend, you really launched a shit storm.
You are obviously not only ill equipped to discuss matters of Anthropological nature, but even more ill equipped to discuss the Sociological aspects of human rights, dignity and shared responsibilities, aka playing nice with your girlfriends.
Please notice I keep saying shared RESPONSIBILITIES, not power. Power is something men with small, er, minds worry about and try to hold onto with punitive laws, wars, violence, rhetoric, yelling, punching, nasty blogs, etc. RESPONSIBILITIES are what humans take care of together, regardless of gender, race, creed, culture, etc.
Responsibilities include caring for: our children, the food system, the water system, shelter, and all the creatures we share this planet, our Mother Earth, with.
I had hoped to see more emotional progress in this community of collapsers and doomers, being that we know we are doomed. But I am deeply saddened by seeing the same old baloney that brought the world to where it is today. Nasty backbiting, bickering, petty snarkiness. It’s gross. Disappointing. Disheartening.
As long as people (male or female) insist on NOT looking into themselves and analyzing their own defects and hurts,
as long as they refuse to respect the perspectives of others,
as long as they belittle and dismiss each other,
as long as they cut themselves off from feeling the hurt of those around them or at least validating the pain others are feeling (men and women),
as long as they are unwilling to heal the pain of the schism of the world’s male/female wound,
as long we refuse to forgive the faults and weaknesses of those around us,
as long as we let fear direct our thoughts and actions,
we will continue to see Mountain Top Removal, Nuclear warheads, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Civil Wars, Banksters raping citizens, the oceans polluted, Carbon levels rising, etc., and the world destroyed and our entire planet driven to extinction.
What you are perpetrating here is akin to what our so called “leaders” of the world do by allowing the extinction of all life on Earth. Do not encourage such behavior. It’s beneath you. I met a better man at breakfast that morning.
Dimitry, when you or other men speak vilifyingly against women and against my daughters who try to stand up for their human rights and struggle every day for an equal share of responsibility, you speak against the very Mother Earth you stand on.
This is a Truth. Remember it.
When you and all the men who speak against women, FINALLY realize that truth , you will all find your way home to your own hearts and souls and you will be healed. And our Mother Earth will too. And we women will embrace those men with all our love and forgiveness and tears of joy. For we have been tormented a great many thousands of years by them, though burnings and stonings and various other abuses. Which you have turned a blind eye to or simply forgotten.
Words are powerful things, let us all use them with wisdom and use them with compassion. I challenge anyone reading this to do the same, man or woman. Our time to embrace each other with love and forgiveness is running out…. Don’t waste it on foolishness.
The time to heal is now, because soon it will all be done.
The Abyss beckons.
With much love
Pauline
Dmitry Orlov on Wed, 5th Jun 2013 8:10 am
Hi Pauline,
This is a long read, and generally beside the point. You bring up your 24-year-old daughter. But is she even capable of the radical act of unconditional, unquestioning surrender that would be required of her if she were to join any of the communities I described? And, if not, then why are we wasting time on this? But just wading through it all really made me think that I should just give up on the whole thing. What am I doing explaining communities that abide to people who don’t? Preaching to the doomed is such a thankless chore. I have enough other projects to keep me busy—ones that don’t involve any politics. What motivated me to look at these communities is my fascination with the fact that they are separatist and therefore remain relatively unscathed by the ravages of the surrounding culture. But it seems impossible to remain unscathed by the surrounding culture while discussing them in public. So perhaps I should just give up.
-Dmitry
pops on Wed, 5th Jun 2013 11:59 am
test
vera on Thu, 6th Jun 2013 8:12 pm
Give up behaving like a petulant bully!
(I just got censored — possibly banned? — on Club Orlov. Apparently the man who posted about cojones and bitches was more to Mr. Orlov’s liking. Bah humbug.)
pauline on Fri, 7th Jun 2013 1:44 pm
Dmitry,
I taught my children to practice the radical act of unconditional love, and unquestioning compassionate behavior, NOT subservience to illegitimate, and disproven societal organizations that create artificial hierarchies designed simply to subjugate and control its people for the sole purpose of power and the main reason world is collapsing right now, need I remind you.
If anyone survives the collapse (I highly doubt there will be enough humans to start any kind of civilization or even tribe) I hope they can practice these truths of love and compassion as well. Like you said when you started your talk, it was that love and compassion, i.e. communism, that resulted in a couple million years of successful human relations and our evolution as social, nurturing, sensual & loving animals.
Never forget that.
with love
Pauline