Page added on December 27, 2017
Last week’s post on political economy attracted plenty of disagreement. Now of course this came as no surprise, and it was also not exactly surprising that most of the disagreement took the shape of strident claims that I’d used the wrong definition of socialism. That’s actually worth addressing here, because it will help clear the ground for this week’s discussion.
The definition I used, for those who weren’t here last week, is that socialism is the system of political economy in which the means of production are owned by the national government. Is that the only possible definition of socialism, or the only definition that’s ever been used? Of course not. The meanings of words are not handed down from on high by God or somebody; the meanings of words are always contested among competing points of view, and when a word has become as loaded with raw emotions as the word “socialism” has, you can bet that every one of the definitions you’ll be offered is slanted in one direction or another.
That’s just as true of the definition I’ve offered, of course, as it is of any other. I want to talk about who owns the means of production in society, since this is arguably the most important issue in political economy, and it so happens that socialism, capitalism, and many other systems can be defined quite neatly in this way. A century ago, when it was still acceptable to talk about systems of political economy other than capitalism and socialism, the definition I’ve proposed was one of the most common. You don’t hear it very often now, and there’s a reason for that.
Since 1945 the conventional wisdom across most of the world has insisted that there are two and only two possible systems of political economy: socialism on the one hand, capitalism on the other. That’s very convenient for socialists and capitalists, since it allows both sides to contrast an idealized and highly sentimental picture of the system they favor with the real and disastrous failings of the one they don’t, and insist that since the two systems are the only available options, you’d better choose theirs. This allows both sides to ignore the fact that the system they prefer is just as bad as the one they hate.
Let us please be real. In theory, socialism is a wonderful system in which the workers own the means of production, and people contribute what they can and receive what they need. In practice, as seen in actual socialist societies? It sucks. Get past the rhetoric, and what happens is that the workers’ ownership of the means of production becomes a convenient fiction; an inner circle of politicians controls the means of production, and uses it to advance its own interests rather than that of the workers. Centralized bureaucracy becomes the order of the day, fossilization follows, and you end up with the familiar sclerosis of the mature socialist economy, guided by hopelessly inefficient policies mandated by clueless central planners, and carried out grudgingly by workers who know that they have nothing to gain by doing more than the minimum. Eventually this leads to the collapse of the system and its replacement by some other system of political economy.
In theory, equally, capitalism is a wonderful system in which anyone willing to work hard can get ahead, and the invisible hand of the market inevitably generates the best possible state of affairs for everyone. In practice, as seen in actual capitalist societies? It sucks. Get past the rhetoric, and what happens is that social mobility becomes a convenient fiction; an inner circle of plutocrats controls the means of production, and uses economic power backed by political corruption to choke the free market and stomp potential competitors. Monopoly and oligopoly become the order of the day, wealth concentrates at the top of the pyramid, and you end up with the familiar sclerosis of the mature capitalist society, in which the workers who actually make the goods and provide the services can’t afford to buy them, resulting in catastrophic booms and busts, soaring unemployment, and the rise of a violent and impoverished underclass. Eventually this leads to the collapse of the system and its replacement by some other system of political economy.
Yes, this is as true of capitalism as it is of socialism. Unrestricted capitalism has already collapsed once—the aftermath of the Great Depression saw it replaced by social democracy, socialism, or fascism over all of the industrial world—and we didn’t begin to return to it again until the Reagan-Thatcher counterrevolution of the 1980s. Now that we’ve gotten back to something fairly close to unrestricted capitalism, we’ve got all the same spiraling dysfunctions that brought things crashing down in the 1930s. The possibility that it could end the same way, with a similar quota of armbands and jackboots, is rather hard to dismiss out of hand just at the moment.
At the same time, the notion that we can fix the current mess by exchanging capitalism for socialism doesn’t bear close examination. We know how socialism works out, just as we know how capitalism works out. As previously noted, both of them suck. The obvious solution—unthinkable these days, oh, granted, but obvious—is to look for other options.
The best way to do this, it seems to me, is to pay attention to the core similarity between capitalism and socialism. Both systems reliably end up dominated by massive bureaucracies—corporate bureaucracies in the former case, government bureaucracies in the latter—and the bureaucracies do so stunningly bad a job of getting people the goods and services they need that it becomes necessary to paper over the gaps with propaganda and police violence. There’s a reason for the similarity, and it’s one that people who studied political economy a century and more ago had no trouble at all recognizing: in capitalism and socialism alike, control of the means of production is concentrated in too few hands.
Promoters of socialist systems like to pretend that if the means of production are owned by the government, they’re really owned by the workers, but I trust none of my readers are simple-minded enough to fall for that bait-and-switch tactic. In the same way, promoters of capitalist systems like to pretend that if the means of production are owned by stockholders, a little old lady who has five shares of Microsoft has just as much effective ownership as Bill Gates; here again, the old bait-and-switch tactic gets a hefty workout. In socialist systems, control of the means of production is kept within a small circle of upper-level bureaucrats; in capitalist systems, control of the means of production is kept within a small circle of upper-level plutocrats.
That’s not something either socialists or capitalists like to talk about, in turn, because once you start looking at who owns the means of production, it really doesn’t make sense to insist that the only choice your society has is either to hand them over to a small coterie of bureaucrats, or to hand them over to an equally small coterie of plutocrats. Most people, considering that choice, will quite sensibly ask why some other arrangement is out of the question—and that is not a question either socialists or capitalists want to answer, or even to hear.
Here again, there’s good reason for that. In a modern industrial society, after all, the people who control most of the wealth are also the people who exercise disproportionate influence over the political system. The choice between capitalism and socialism thus amounts to asking whether you want the means of production in the hands of corporate bureaucracies owned by the elite class, or political bureaucracies controlled by the elite class. “Meet the new boss,” sang the Who, “same as the old boss.” There are other options, and they begin with getting the means of production into many more hands.
What happens if we ask ourselves how control over the means of production can be spread more widely? Why, then we would end up revisiting the lively world of alternative systems of political economy that existed before 1945, when the US and the Soviet Union between them squeezed out every alternative to social democracy on the one hand and socialism on the other, and kept on squeezing. We would find that the question of the ownership and control of the means of production was the focus of vigorous and thoughtful discussion from the second half of the nineteenth century straight through the first half of the twentieth. There were quite a few systems proposed during that time, but those that didn’t gravitate either toward capitalism or toward socialism generally embraced one form or another of syndicalism.
Syndicalism? That’s the form of political economy in which each business enterprise is owned and run by its own employees.
Before we go on, I’d like to encourage my readers to stop, reread that definition, and remember that we’re talking about the ownership and control of the means of production. It’s possible to approach political economy from other directions, sure, and there’s a point to those discussions as well, but—ahem—not when those discussions are used to try to stonewall discussion of who gets to own and run the means of production. We can talk about those other things later.
Okay, with that settled, let’s talk about the most important feature of syndicalism: it’s already been tried, and it works. Right now there’s a very large number of employee-owned enterprises in the United States, and an even larger number elsewhere in the industrial world. They are by and large just as successful as companies owned by stockholders who aren’t employees. There are several different ways to set up a worker-owned enterprise—the two most common are the worker-owned cooperative, on the one hand, and the closely held corporation whose stock can only be owned by employees, on the other—and they’ve been around long enough to have had the bugs worked out. Thus we’re not talking about a pie-in-the-sky system, we’re talking about something with a long and relatively successful track record. You’ve probably shopped at worker-owned enterprises, dear reader; I certainly have.
In a very real sense, syndicalism is what happens when you take the basic unit of a market economy—the individual sole proprietor with no employees, who sells the product of his or her labor directly to customers—and maintain the same relationship with the means of production at a larger scale. In a capitalist society, only the owners of capital own the means of production: the mass of the population, not being rich enough to be able to invest in ownership of the means of production, are excluded from any economic activity other than selling their labor at whatever wages employers want to pay, and buying products at whatever price companies want to charge. In a socialist economy, no individual owns the means of production: everyone is an employee of the state, and the bureaucrats who draft the latest Five-Year Plan in blissful ignorance of shop-floor realities have no more of a personal stake in how things turn out than the working stiffs on the shop floor who have to carry out the dictates of the plan despite its obvious cluelessness.
In a syndicalist society, by contrast, every employee is an owner. Every employee benefits when the business prospers and suffers when the business takes a loss. Every employee has some influence over the management of the business—the usual approach is to have employees elect a board of directors, which then hires and fires the management personnel. Every employee thus has a personal stake in the business—and every business is owned and run by people who have a personal stake in its success. That’s one of the reasons syndicalism works well.
Let’s deal with some of the usual questions at this point. Do sole proprietorships exist in a syndicalist system? Of course. An individual who goes into business for himself or herself is the simplest form of syndicalist economic organization: a business wholly owned and operated by its one employee. A family business—the sort of thing where Mom and Dad own the business and their kids work there—is also a syndicalist business in miniature. It’s when things get larger than that, and there are employees other than the individual proprietor or the members of a family, that the classic forms of syndicalist ownership come into play.
Wouldn’t syndicalism mean that new employees coming in could simply take over the business and throw the founder out on his or her ear? Not at all, because the way you organize a business in a syndicalist society prevents that. Let’s say you’ve founded a blivet-making business, just you and your blivet press, and you do well enough that you need a second employee. You hire someone, and part of the terms of hire are that she gets a share in the business for each year of employment. The business is worth thirty thousand dollars at the time of hire, we’ll say, so she gets, as part of her compensation package, one share with a five hundred dollar face value each year. This cannot be sold or transferred; it remains with her only as long as she remains an employee of the company; but it gives her voting rights in the shareholders meeting and a cut of the annual dividend. A year after she’s hired, she has one vote in the shareholder’s meeting and you’ve got fifty-nine, so she’s not going to be throwing you out any time soon.
By the time she’s put in thirty years, she owns half the original value of the company, but of course by then you’ve retired, and your shares are the basis of your pension. (Your shares revert to the company when you retire, remember—they can only be owned by employees—but your pension makes up for the income.) In the meantime, as the business grows and you bring in more employees, they also start earning shares on the same basis. A hundred years down the road the business you founded is a thriving blivet firm with three hundred fifty employees, all of whom are part owners, and each new employee starts out in the same place as your first hire, working for a year and getting that first share. Again, this was all worked out a long time ago.
Can you fire someone in a syndicalist company? Of course, if they’re not doing their job, or do something that deserves termination. That’s why the employees elect a board of directors, and the board hires management: so there’s somebody who’s not on the shop floor who can take responsibility for hiring and firing, and the other tasks management has to do. A management team that tries to offshore jobs to Third World sweatshops is going to be out on its ear in a hurry, of course, because the board of directors has to worry about being thrown out by vote of the employees; in the same way, any board of directors that tried to pay a management team the kind of absurdly kleptocratic salary packages that management thinks it deserves in today’s America had better empty its desk and pack its bags in advance. When every employee has a personal stake in the success of the enterprise, though, firing somebody who’s not pulling their weight, or is a problem in some other way, is rarely a controversial issue.
Now, the big one: could such a thing actually happen? Of course it could, for the same reason that unrestricted capitalism gave way to social democracy, socialism, and fascism across the industrial world in the 1930s. Capitalism, as we discussed last week, has a self-destruct button wired into it: as the distribution of wealth becomes more and more imbalanced, the production of goods and services stops being profitable, speculative booms and busts replace investment in productive activity, and sooner or later the economy hits a crash devastating enough that the voters turn to somebody who promises to replace unrestricted capitalism with something else. We’re arguably not that many crises away from such a moment here in America right now.
That’s why it’s time to start talking again about the alternatives to capitalism and socialism. Since, as already noted, both of them suck, and the third alternative most often tried back in the 1930s—fascism—sucks even more, other options are worth considering.
It’s worth noting that classic social democracy is also an option. That’s the system we had in the United States from 1932 to 1980—a period, please note, when this country achieved the highest standard of living and the widest distribution of wealth and income in its history. As mentioned in last week’s post, social democracy balances the power of government against the power of the corporations. It’s an unsteady balance, and eventually breaks down when the wealthy forget that limiting the excesses of the capitalist system is the one thing that keeps them from being strung up from lampposts, but during the time that it works, it sucks less than either of the two alternatives that get all the air time these days.
It’s also worth noting that syndicalism comes in many flavors. Those of my readers who happen to be Roman Catholics will want to check out distributism, the specifically Catholic version of syndicalism, which draws its basic principles from encyclicals issued by Leo XIII and Pius IX in the nineteenth century, and was worked out in some detail by G.K. Chesterton in the early twentieth. Those who aren’t Roman Catholics, or sympathetic to Catholic moral doctrines, will probably not find it to their tastes, because it incorporates quite a bit of conservative Catholic morality; I mention it here partly because I have quite a few readers who are either Catholic or comfortable with Catholic moral thought, and partly as a reminder that syndicalism isn’t necessarily associated with the political left—you’d have a hard time convincing anyone who knows the first thing about Pius IX or G.K. Chesterton that either man was a leftist.
There are other versions, ranging from anarchosyndicalism on the extreme left to national syndicalism on the extreme right. The version I tend to favor, as previously noted, is democratic syndicalism: the system of political economy that combines a syndicalist economy with a politics based on constitutional representative democracy. I also favor a firm distinction between public utilities, which are best owned and operated by local governments, and private businesses, which are best owned and operated by the people who work for them; readers of my book Retrotopia already know that I consider banking to be a public utility rather than a private business, but that’s a matter for another post.
Is what I’ve just very roughly sketched out a perfect system? Of course not. In the real world, there are no perfect systems. Every possible system of political economy will inevitably turn out to have glaring flaws, for the simple reason that human beings have glaring flaws. The best we can hope to achieve is a system that sucks less than the ones that have been tried so far.
I think that’s potentially within reach, even given the many other pressures on the United States and industrial society in general as we lurch through the opening phases of the Long Descent. If such a thing is going to be possible, though, the first step is to break out of the mental rut that insists that the only choice we’ve got is between capitalism and socialism, two systems that both unquestionably suck. Attention to the ownership of the means of production is one tolerably effective way to leave that rut and start exploring the vast and interesting spaces outside it.
Ecosophia by John Michael Greer
330 Comments on "John Michael Greer: Systems That Suck Less"
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 3:07 am
Here is the database with most (all?) offshore wind jackup vessels around:
http://www.4coffshore.com/windfarms/vessels.aspx?catid=3
Here is an American one that will become available in 2019:
http://www.4coffshore.com/windfarms/vessel-zentech—rri-installation-vessel-vid2310.html
Happy monopile ramming!
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 3:44 am
MM, I was born before TV, A/C, electronics of every kind. No indoor plumbing. Basic electric. Coal heat. Etc.
Me too. Until the discovery and roll-out of natural gas in the Netherlands in the early sixties…
https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/08/05/the-speed-of-the-energy-transition/
…we had a single hearth in the living room. The majority Catholics in our street in the South of the Netherlands had coal, the Protestants like us had oil. Every 2 months or so a Shell tanker truck appeared at the end of the backyard and a hose of 50 meter was rolled out to get the job done.
In those days we still had real winters with minus 10-20 Celsius and ice flowers on the single window glass, making the bedrooms upstairs stone cold. Fortunately for us toddlers our dear father made life more bearable by pre-warming the beds by lying into it for a couple of minutes. The service usually came included with a good fart hidden between the blankets just to top it off.lol
Makati1 on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 3:58 am
cloggie, the young of today, for the most part, are hot house flowers. The new term “snowflakes” fits perfectly. I’m not anxious to go back to that style of living, but I can, if I have to. We might have been “deprived”, but we enjoyed life and survived.
Davy on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 5:17 am
“gangland war zones, like Chicago, Baltimore, St. Louis”
Well if you call 10 square blocks of an inner city slum a gangland war zone then I think maybe you need to come on over and check out the city of St Louis. I have lived with this situation for most of my life. Little has changed. In fact the size of the slum in question has shrunk and the violence about the same. St Louis has a lot of positives along with all those negatives you and mad kat preach.
Davy on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 5:21 am
“Nope! I am stepping down the ladder to that very lifestyle currently.”
mad kat you are in the worst possible place to seek a refuge primarily because you are already in a disaster prone area AND you are one of the worst areas for overpopulation in the world. You have ZERO to brag about. You have been bragging about this farm for 5 years but nothing ever happens. This is because it is a fantasy of a 75 year old man loosing his faculties.
Davy on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 5:26 am
“Asia is moving up. The West is moving down.”
Typical delusions of a narcissistic braggart. You want to believe Asia is moving up because you are in Asia. this vindicates your big move and all that American hatred. You want your cake and eat it mad kat. China is coming apart and China is Asia and China is also one of the primary movers of the global economy. The worst overpopulation and pollution is in Asia. It is likely Asia will be the nexus of collapse
Davy on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 5:33 am
“I’m not anxious to go back to that style of living, but I can, if I have to. We might have been “deprived”, but we enjoyed life and survived.”
Geeze, you are in a westernized condo in Makati, Manila with a Starbucks next to you. You have been 10 years there very, very far away from hard labor. Neither of you or Tulip do anything but keep your chair warm. Please spare us the theatrics.
Dylan on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 6:30 am
Be careful when attributing the good times in America to social democracy (1932-1980). The energy situation had more to do with that than political economy.
Dylan on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 6:35 am
The extreme left= total statism, so no version of syndicalism can be extreme left. The extreme right= NO state, so nationalism cannot have anything to do with the right. Socialism, Crony capitalism, and Fascism are all on the left.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 7:23 am
Cloggie
Sorry your blog isn’t a credible source. You are so pathetic you have to create your own fake news. Grow a pair and move out of your moms basement.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 7:26 am
Madkat
You are not anxious to go back to living as a hunter gather? Okay? too much lead in your gasoline for years have lowered your IQ substantially.
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 7:40 am
Cloggie
Sorry your blog isn’t a credible source. You are so pathetic you have to create your own fake news. Grow a pair and move out of your moms basement.
Do you deny this announcement, millimind?
http://news.cision.com/nel-asa/r/nel-asa–enters-into-exclusive-nok-450-million-industrial-scale-power-to-gas-framework-agreement-wit,c2286835
[part 1]
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 7:43 am
part 2 with only 2 links does not come through. Intentional?
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 7:44 am
There are many more, including reuters.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1464285917302274
Are you really so stupid to deny these reports about a 700 MW electrolyser plant?!
I don’t believe for a second you even completed high-school, let alone university.
[part 2]
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 8:00 am
Clogg
You are grasping at straws. And if you really believed renewable s were a solution you wouldn’t be on a peak oil doomer blog everyday..You are hear to try to convince yourself by arguing with others..You are sad and pathetic. Move out of your moms basement and go get some fresh air before society collapses.
Sissyfuss on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 8:09 am
So Greer is promoting syndicalism as the most favored bandaid of our predicament. Would that system be efficacious enough to overcome our present model of overshootitalism? I think not. The only model capable of dealing with our current malaise is collapsitalism.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 8:41 am
Clogg
Renewable energy ‘simply won’t work’: Top Google engineers
Two highly qualified Google engineers who have spent years studying and trying to improve renewable energy technology have stated quite bluntly that whatever the future holds, it is not a renewables-powered civilisation: such a thing is impossible.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21/renewable_energy_simply_wont_work_google_renewables_engineers/
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 9:38 am
Cloggie
Solar and Wind made up less than one percent of total world energy last year. Per IEA WEO 2017
https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/KeyWorld2017.pdf
HAHAH I proved it you dumb idiot…And every time you post your nonsense I will keep posting the facts.
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 9:44 am
What page in that 97p report?
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 9:47 am
I hope you understand the difference between primary energy and power generation. My statements about 2% solar and 7% wind in 2015-2016, together 9%, were related to power (electricity), not primary energy. You probably missed that because you don’t understand the difference.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 9:57 am
Clogg
Its on page one and total world energy means the same thing as primary energy…Face it renewable s are a false hope..I have proved it..And if you keep spamming this site with garbage about them I will keep posting the facts.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 9:59 am
Renewable energy ‘simply won’t work’: Top Google engineers
Two highly qualified Google engineers who have spent years studying and trying to improve renewable energy technology have stated quite bluntly that whatever the future holds, it is not a renewables-powered civilisation: such a thing is impossible.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21/renewable_energy_simply_wont_work_google_renewables_engineers/
Solar and Wind produced less than one percent of total world energy in 2016 – IEA WEO 2017
https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/KeyWorld2017.pdf
Davy on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:20 am
MM, it is those who utilyze alternatives that will be a step up when everything steps down.
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:31 am
Denmark 70% electricity per 2022 from renewable, according to the same IEA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfNE_6ae6B4
There are meanwhile 269 offshore wind jackup vessels around, the overwhelming majority in Europe, where 90% of offshore wind projects take place:
http://www.4coffshore.com/windfarms/vessels.aspx?catId=3
Every ship can install a single wind tower of say 5-6 MW per day. We in Europe have everything in place and we are at least doing something substantial.
I hope that the good folks of Nigeria, Somalia, America, Rwanda, Liberia and similar places start to work on a renewable energy base as well, but sometimes I’m afraid that in these sad places there are simply too many people like millimind, who prefer to sit on their sad lazy butts and create doomer excuses for themselves for having to do nothing.
Are you designed for Higher Civilization, millimind? Or are you a third worlder? Asking the question is answering it.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:33 am
Clogg
Denmark is teeny tiny country. Just like your penis in real life..Thats why you cant get laid and became a Nazi! LOL
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:34 am
Its on page one and total world energy means the same thing as primary energy…Face it renewable s are a false hope..I have proved it
There is nothing on page 1.
So far you have proved nothing.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:35 am
Clogg
Do a google search for “Solar power bankruptcy”….LOL even in sunny spain they couldn’t stay in business..
Cloggie on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:40 am
Do a google search for “Solar power bankruptcy”….LOL even in sunny spain they couldn’t stay in business..
You better worry about US bankruptcy and all these “goons” you already admitted will be at your throat once the shtf.
Rule of thumb: Asia does pv-solar, Europe does wind.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 11:00 am
Clogg
The US will be the last country to go bankrupt you dumb idiot. The IMF is headquartered in America.
fmr-paultard on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 11:29 am
i don’t know why genital farmer is conversing with ((eurotard)). we’re dead anyways. we’ll have a massive invasion by PMBB confederation. Our supertards is still stuck in marginot line mindset practicing morgenhau plan of subsistent permacutism farming. all we have a “fake nukes”. i got top secret info from eurotard. didn’t make it up.
death, hopelessness, the end. that’s up mm’s alley as home made apple pie
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 11:42 am
MM,
“Renewable energy ‘simply won’t work’: Top Google engineers”
That article is saying that renewable energy will never save humanity from catastrophic climate change, not that it can’t power society.
‘We felt that with steady improvements to today’s renewable energy technologies, our society could stave off catastrophic climate change. We now know that to be a false hope …”
The article is more about pushing nuclear power, than it is about renewables. More reactors to melt down when TSHTF. Good find MM.
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 11:55 am
” Just like your penis in real life..Thats why you cant get laid and became a Nazi!”
Exactly the kind of rhetoric to be expected from a 12 year old child, with an IQ of ~90.
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 12:06 pm
“The US will be the last country to go bankrupt you dumb idiot. The IMF is headquartered in America.”
Why would you care which country goes down first? You’ve repeatedly told everyone here that collapse is immanent, and that your plan is to commit suicide.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 12:35 pm
Greg
Go watch wheel of fortune old man…Shouldn’t you be preparing to live like a hunter gather again? I know..I know..You are prepared…Typical “Survivalist Fallacy”…
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 12:49 pm
MM,
I haven’t watched any considerable amount of TV for over 30 years, and we don’t have cable. We get one or two channels OTA, if the sky is clear, the air pressure is good, and the winds are blowing in the right direction.
I wouldn’t be nearly as concerned about my plans if I were you, as I would be about yours. Have you selected your weapon of choice yet? And keep in mind, there’s no fallacy around surviving suicide. It’s permanent.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 12:56 pm
Dear Reader,
Here are five peer reviewed scientific studies authored by top experts that prove beyond any reasonable doubt you will be dead within the next decade.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800914000615
https://www.permaculture.org.au/files/Peak%20Oil_Study%20EN.pdf
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1754/20122845
http://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/sites/default/files/docs/MSSI-ResearchPaper-4_Turner_2014.pdf
http://www.feasta.org/2012/06/17/trade-off-financial-system-supply-chain-cross-contagion-a-study-in-global-systemic-collapse/
fmr-paultard on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:05 pm
i feel under furious fire from ((MM)). I wish i’m ISIS under coalition bombing right now. This is not how you moderate extremists but a meretard has took up the mission and we are helpless.
his name is all CAPS denoting a take no prisoner approach alpha male charge. why can’t we just chill in our a/c room or a nice central heating system if you will
this school of hard-coresm suck. constatntine jesus was a lot gentler than this. i don’t like hard core. hard all the time you’re bound to overlook the richness of life and nuances. this is what distinguishes supertards and us. we’re doomed i’m sure
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:10 pm
Dear MM,
All old news. Most here have read, and given consideration to your above linked reports, many years ago.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:11 pm
Dear Reader,
Here are five peer reviewed scientific studies authored by top experts that prove beyond any reasonable doubt you will be dead within the next decade.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800914000615
https://www.permaculture.org.au/files/Peak%20Oil_Study%20EN.pdf
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1754/20122845
http://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/sites/default/files/docs/MSSI-ResearchPaper-4_Turner_2014.pdf
http://www.feasta.org/2012/06/17/trade-off-financial-system-supply-chain-cross-contagion-a-study-in-global-systemic-collapse/
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:12 pm
Hmmm, nothing about human extinction here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800914000615
Summary:
“Collapses of even advanced civilizations have occurred many times in the past five thousand years, and they were frequently followed by centuries of population and cultural decline and economic regression.”
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:12 pm
The last law of nature says: that any creature that despoils and out-breeds its natural habitat will be culled to bring its numbers under control and restore a stable environment.
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:14 pm
Greg
Collapsing in the past were regional in their scope. This time for the first time its global.
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:15 pm
Still nothing about human extinction:
https://permaculturenews.org/files/Peak%20Oil_Study%20EN.pdf
“Loss of confidence in currencies. Belief in the value-preserving function of money would dwindle. This would initially result in hyperinflation and black markets, followed by a barter economy at the local level.”
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:17 pm
Same here:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1754/20122845
Conclusions
“Do we think global society can avoid a collapse in this century? The answer is yes, because modern society has shown some capacity to deal with long-term threats, at least if they are obvious or continuously brought to attention (think of the risks of nuclear conflict).”
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:21 pm
Greg
You are no different than a climate denier trying to cherry pick studies and take them out of context..You are pathetic old man with a fat hairy wife..at least you wont have to worry about goons raping her..lol
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:23 pm
Still no extinction:
http://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/sites/default/files/docs/MSSI-ResearchPaper-4_Turner_2014.pdf
“Diminishing per capita supply of services and food causes a rise in the death rate from about 2020
(and a somewhat lower rise in the birth rate, due to reduced birth control options). The global population therefore falls, at about half a billion per decade, starting at about 2030. Following the collapse, the output of the World3 model for the BAU (Figure 1) shows that average living stan- dards for the aggregate population (material wealth, food and services per capita basically re ecting OECD-type conditions) resemble those of the early 20th century.”
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:25 pm
Dear Reader,
Here are seven peer reviewed scientific studies authored by top experts that prove beyond any reasonable doubt you will be dead within the next decade.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800914000615
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016236114010254
https://www.permaculture.org.au/files/Peak%20Oil_Study%20EN.pdf
https://www.scribd.com/document/367688629/HSBC-Peak-Oil-Report-2017
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1754/20122845
http://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/sites/default/files/docs/MSSI-ResearchPaper-4_Turner_2014.pdf
http://www.feasta.org/2012/06/17/trade-off-financial-system-supply-chain-cross-contagion-a-study-in-global-systemic-collapse/
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:27 pm
Greg
Once the limits to growth economic collapse occurs. The models than become unpredictable. Because it will be mass chaos and chaos by theory is unpredictable.
GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:28 pm
Last one of your “we’re all gonna die” links:
http://www.feasta.org/2012/06/17/trade-off-financial-system-supply-chain-cross-contagion-a-study-in-global-systemic-collapse/
“Our immediate concern is crisis and shock planning. It should now be clear that this is far more extensive than merely focussing on the financial system. It includes how we might move forward if a reversion to current conditions proves impossible. That is we also need transition planning and preparation. Even while subject to lock-in and the reflexivity trap, this will be most effective if it works from bottom-up as well as top-down.”
Transition planning and preparation? Hmmm, sounds familiar……
MASTERMIND on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 1:31 pm
Greg
You know once BAU goes down its ball game for all humans. You are just not as honest of a person as I am to admit it..That is why you have to lie to yourself and believe in your idiotic “Survivorship bias”.
Survivorship bias or survival bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. It is a form of selection bias.
Survivorship bias can lead to overly optimistic beliefs because failures are ignored, such as when companies that no longer exist are excluded from analyses of financial performance. It can also lead to the false belief that the successes in a group have some special property, rather than just coincidence (correlation proves causality)..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias