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Fate of Countries in Collapse – Results: Currency Collapse

Fate of Countries in Collapse – Results: Currency Collapse thumbnail

One of the longest running arguments on the Diner is how various different countries will fare as collapse progresses forward.

Most often, this pits the FSoA against China, and the Diner has some China Bulls and some China Bears.  I am a notorious China Bear gong back to my days on the Peak Oil Forum, where at the time because China was such a hot investment opportunity with double-digit growth rates it was common wisdom the Chinese would out-compete the FSoA Empire to lead the world in the second half of the 21st Century.  It was there I first added my Tag Line to analysis posts on China, “The Chinese are TOAST”.

Now in reality here, as time goes by EVERY industrialized nation is toast, in the sense every one is dependent on the systems that are driven by copious quantities of fossil fuel energy.  Once that energy can no longer be accessed or afforded, life as we know it now wll come to a halt.

However, this is unlikely to happen all at once, and it is unlikely to play itself out exactly the same way in different countries, different regions and even from town to town.

In this survey we look at the large nation states individually and regionally for the smaller ones, to find out the opinions of the Kollapsniks TM on which ones are the best positioned as collapse gathers speed, and which ones will fare the worst.

Besides China and the FSoA, the other one of the “Big Three” countries often discussed in comparing on this topic is Russia.  Russia is often cited as more resilient by virtue of the fact they already went through one collapse when the USSR collapsed, plus the fact they have a decent amount of fossil fuel energy still left in the ground.  However, they have numerous problems as well, wars ongoing to their south, the Ukrainian situation and enormous financial and currency turbulence.

Take the survey, and let us know who you think will do best and which ones worst as collapse gets fully underway.

TAKE THE FATE OF COUNTRIES SURVEY HERE

Results: Currency Collapse & Debt Implosion Survey

OK, now onto the results from last week’s Collapse Survey TM, Currency Collapse & Debt Implosion.

First question to look at is which of the current major currencies is likely to collapse first, and which has the potential to hold up the longest.

This is obviously important if you want to try to “preserve wealth”, you certainly don’t want to be holding the currency that collapses first! Duh.

On the other hand, you have the problem of the utility of a currency in your neighborhood.

For instance, say the Norwegian Krone holds its value while the FSoA Dollar crashes.  Even if you have some Krone stashed in a Norwegian or Swiss Bank account, or even actually have some of their Notes in your basement safe along with your stash of Gold Coins, is Walmart going to take your Krone for a purchase of a bag of rice in Peoria, IL?  Not very likely.  You might stand a better chance in Europe, particularly Scandinavian countries if you have Krone, but here in the FSoA they are unlikely to do you a whole lot of good.  Only if you want to do currency trading during the spin down is this worthwhile to consider, and first off you need to be pretty flush to do that kind of trading, and second it’s a fool’s game these days with manipulated markets.  Even back in the day when I messed with currency trading it was nuts.  You have to leverage to beat the band to make any money this way.  You can get SWAMPED in a big move overnight.  Then the margin calls hit, and your next trip is out the window of the 49th floor.

Leaving aside the question of whether holding foreign currencies might benefit you personally, on the nation state level it’s important to consider because he whose Currency crashes first, Collapses first.  So who is it gonna be?

I found the results of this particular question to be absolutely astounding.  Here’s the results:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Standard Deviation Responses Weighted Average
Chinese Renminby/Yuan 10
(9.8%)		 23
(22.55%) 		8
(7.84%)		 17
(16.67%)		 10
(9.8%)		 8
(7.84%)		 8
(7.84%)		 1
(0.98%)		 5.92 102 4.81 / 12
European Euro 9
(8.82%)		 13
(12.75%)		 15
(14.71%)		 19
(18.63%) 		10
(9.8%)		 11
(10.78%)		 5
(4.9%)		 5
(4.9%)		 5.24 102 4.88 / 12
Japanese Yen 15
(14.71%) 		8
(7.84%)		 13
(12.75%)		 12
(11.76%)		 11
(10.78%)		 10
(9.8%)		 8
(7.84%)		 15
(14.71%)		 4.92 102 4.98 / 12
Russian Ruble 7
(6.86%)		 16
(15.69%)		 21
(20.59%) 		13
(12.75%)		 8
(7.84%)		 13
(12.75%)		 2
(1.96%)		 2
(1.96%)		 5.91 102 4.99 / 12
Brasil Real 29
(28.43%) 		14
(13.73%)		 6
(5.88%)		 3
(2.94%)		 7
(6.86%)		 5
(4.9%)		 3
(2.94%)		 4
(3.92%)		 7.53 102 5.29 / 12
British Sterling/Pound 0
(0%)		 3
(2.94%)		 7
(6.86%)		 10
(9.8%)		 21
(20.59%) 		6
(5.88%)		 11
(10.78%)		 16
(15.69%)		 5.74 102 6.78 / 12
US Dollar 27
(26.47%)		 7
(6.86%)		 5
(4.9%)		 1
(0.98%)		 1
(0.98%)		 3
(2.94%)		 1
(0.98%)		 2
(1.96%)		 10.02 102 7.1 / 12
India Rupee 3
(2.94%)		 13
(12.75%)		 10
(9.8%)		 4
(3.92%)		 6
(5.88%)		 8
(7.84%)		 7
(6.86%)		 6
(5.88%)		 4.59 102 7.29 / 12
Canadian Loonie 0
(0%)		 3
(2.94%)		 4
(3.92%)		 9
(8.82%)		 2
(1.96%)		 9
(8.82%)		 16
(15.69%)		 14
(13.73%)		 6.69 102 7.66 / 12
Australian Dollar 1
(0.98%)		 0
(0%)		 5
(4.9%)		 7
(6.86%)		 8
(7.84%)		 7
(6.86%)		 11
(10.78%)		 11
(10.78%)		 7.49 102 7.84 / 12
Norwegian Krone 0
(0%)		 2
(1.96%)		 6
(5.88%)		 2
(1.96%)		 8
(7.84%)		 5
(4.9%)		 22
(21.57%) 		17
(16.67%)		 6.17 102 7.93 / 12
Swiss Franc 1
(0.98%)		 0
(0%)		 2
(1.96%)		 5
(4.9%)		 10
(9.8%)		 17
(16.67%)		 8
(7.84%)		 9
(8.82%)		 6.63 102 8.43 / 12

IMHO, this ordering is INSANE.  Apparently Kollapsniks TM think that the Chinese Renminby will collapse BEFORE the Euro and Yen!  WTF?  Not only that, the Indian Rupee will outlast the FSoA Dollar! hahahahahahahaha.

Which currency outlasts them ALL (according to Kollapsniks)?  The Swissie!  A currency issued by a tiny nation of 8M people with a GDP of $685B (2013 data) is going to outlast the Dollar and Renminby?  WTF?  There are more people living in NY Shity than all of Switzerland!

When the Euro goes down, the Swissie goes with it.  The SNB has HUGE exposure to Euro denominated debt, they have been buying it up to keep the exchange rate from going through the roof.  It’s simply nuts to think this currency can outlast those of the Big 3.

My order for currency collapse?

Brasil Real
India Rupee
Russian Ruble
Japanese Yen
European Euro
British Sterling/Pound
Norwegian Krone
Swiss Franc
Australian Dollar
Canadian Loonie
Chinese Renminby/Yuan
US Dollar

Brasil is already on the serious ropes, and so is India.  Weak economies and too much poverty.  Russia should be strong, but they are a target for the Western Illuminati Banksters, so they will be under constant currency attack.  Yen & Euro go next, and then subsidiary currencies like Sterling, the Swissie and Krone go after them.  The Oz Dollar and Hoser Loonie keep value because of how closely they are connected to the FSoA Dollar.

One caveat to this is that once the cascade begins, it may be impossible to tell which one collapsed first.  Once a major like say the Japanese Yen collapses, this will cause so much havoc in the Interbank lending market that everything else will lock up in pico-seconds.

IMHO, the Final Battle for All the Currency Marbles is between the Chinese Renminby and the FSoA Dollar.  I think the Dollar wins this battle, because so much debt is denominated in dollars. Too many .01%ers have their wealth wrapped up in Dollars or Dollar denominated assets to let that one collapse.  We’ll see on that one.

OK, now onto Q2, which is whether Gold & Silver will replace Fiat Currencies once they collapse?

Yes No Standard Deviation Responses
All Data 34
(33.01%)		 69
(66.99%)		 17.5 103

Overwhelmingly by a 2/3rds majority, most Kollapsniks TM do not think Gold and Silver will replace Fiat once it crashes.

I tend to agree with that one, the PMs are too centralized and too few people have access to them for them to be workable as a currency medium.  There also is no clear idea on how these could be distributed out, or how letters of credit would be issued or anything else.  They might function as a Barter item, but as a currency that many use, it seems unlikely.

If Gold & Silver are NOT likely, what is likely once this Currency Regime fails?  That was the subject for Q3.  Here’s the results for that one:

1 2 3 4 5 Standard Deviation Responses Weighted Average
TPTB will institute a New World Currency, the SDR or something similar 37
(39.36%) 		11
(11.7%)		 19
(20.21%)		 13
(13.83%)		 14
(14.89%)		 9.47 94 2.53 / 5
LETS (Local Exchange Trading System) Money will be issued in many locales 23
(24.47%)		 21
(22.34%)		 19
(20.21%)		 26
(27.66%) 		5
(5.32%)		 7.28 94 2.67 / 5
Paper Money will be issued based on Gold and Silver held in a Central Bank 11
(11.7%)		 19
(20.21%)		 29
(30.85%) 		22
(23.4%)		 13
(13.83%)		 6.46 94 3.07 / 5
Gold & Silver Coins will be used as Currency 7
(7.45%)		 32
(34.04%) 		18
(19.15%)		 20
(21.28%)		 17
(18.09%)		 7.98 94 3.09 / 5
No money will work and Trade will be all Barter 16
(17.02%)		 11
(11.7%)		 9
(9.57%)		 13
(13.83%)		 45
(47.87%) 		13.3 94 3.64 / 5

A large plurality (almost 40%) of Kollapsniks TM think that TPTB will be able to institute a new centralized currency regime from the BIS (Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland, Central Bank of Central Banks, Home Base for the Illuminati). This is a particularly favored idea by Conspiracy Theorists, but it is not one I hold as most likely.  The likely candidate are SDRs, aka Special Drawing Rights, a concoction the BIS already has in place for internal use based on some potpourri of currencies and commodities and who knows what else they threw in that basket..

I am not in that camp.  Perhaps they will try this, but to get every country in the world to cede their monetary sovereignty over to the BIS would be near impossible IMHO.  It’s like the Euro on Steroids.  It really does nothing other than re-denominate debt, and it sure doesn’t put any new resource back in the ground.   To me, this is a non-starter.  Not to say it won’t be attempted though.  It’s a last gasp effort for the Illuminati to maintain hegemony over the economic system.

LETS systems of Local Currencies come in at #2, and this I feel is most likely to occur.  Regional breakup of the One to the Many TM will at least at the beginning require each region to develop their own local currency.  Potlatch at this stage of the spin down seems unlikely.

Far as Centrally held Gold being a basis for a currency, to me this is also a non-starter.  If you have a Central Bank holding gold in the Basement Safe, after a crisis of banking confidence like this, who would not go to the bank and DEMAND their “Gold Backed Note” to actually be redeemable in said Gold?  Once the gold is redeemed, what does the Bank have as an Asset?  At this point, the Gold you redeem for the note the Bank printed on it is just a barter item.

Will all trade eventually go all Barter?  It’s already on its way there in some places, but that will take some time in the core countries I imagine.   Cannot be sure on this though, a rapid collapse could make barter the only functioning economic system in your neighborhood for a while.  Good idea to have barterable goods in your preps. Alcohol and Cigarettes are traditional barter items, I suggest also Tampons, Pampers, Condoms, Ammo, & Shoes as good choices of barter goods that last a long time.  Shoes in particular, have you noticed how many of the pictures of refugees show them to be barefoot?  Once trade with China halts, shoes are going to be hard to come by.  Right now though, you can buy a nice pair of sneakers at Wally World for $15 on sale.

Finally in this survey, how long before the Dollar finally dies completely and you can’t use it to buy food at the major food retailers?  This could be either because the Dollar has hyperinflated to worthlessness or the shelves are empty.  Here’s the results for this one:

2016 2018 2020 2025 2030 The Dollar will keep working for the forseeable future Standard Deviation Responses
All Data 10
(9.71%)		 16
(15.53%)		 16
(15.53%)		 22
(21.36%)		 14
(13.59%)		 25
(24.27%)		 4.98 103

You have a pretty nice Bell Curve here, except for the 25% or so of people who thnk the Dollar will keep working past 2030.  The 2025 date seems about right to me, although again a major banking crisis and lockup could change that in an instant.

All in all, this was one of our most interesting surveys to date.

Doomstead Diner



64 Comments on "Fate of Countries in Collapse – Results: Currency Collapse"

  1. Davy on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 7:05 am 

    Great article and pretty much my thinking word for word. The anti-Americans will have a hard time bashing the doomstead diner becuase it is not associated with American mainstream media. Read it and weep Asiaphile.

  2. Makati1 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 7:32 am 

    More BS. I like his site, but his pols are meaningless.

    The real race is tied with the US and/or the Euro going down first. That will wound the others but not take them down.

    Too bad for his neck problem, but he is still a typical brainwashed American.

  3. Makati1 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 7:38 am 

    The beginning of the end?

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/there-are-indications-that-a-major-financial-event-in-germany-could-be-imminent

    “If Deutsche Bank were to totally collapse, it would be a financial disaster far worse than Lehman Brothers. It would literally take down the entire European financial system and cause global financial panic on a scale that none of us have ever seen before.

    There has been a bit of a lull in the action over the past couple of weeks, but I expect that to end very shortly. I believe that the rest of 2015 is going to be incredibly chaotic, and we are going to see some things happen that most people could not even conceive of right now.

    In the days that are directly ahead, I encourage people to keep a close eye on both Germany and Japan.”

    Let the survival games begin!

  4. Davy on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 7:43 am 

    The truth hurts when it is so clear and backed up with actual current events and not agenda speak.

  5. Rodster on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 9:30 am 

    As i’v said many times, every Nation on this planet is “toast”. No one escapes the shithole created by TPTB, not even China. All anyone needs to look at are all the ghost cities, factories, bridges and roads to nowhere. When you add into the equation more money printing than the Fed, a larger shadow banking system, it becomes clear that China did EXACTLY what the West was doing. EXCEPT, they took several steps further.

    What’s coming is a total economic RESET and that’s if we are lucky. With the way things are ramping up geopolitically, it could get really out of hand pretty quick.

    You can have all the GOLD in the world but if you have the peasants with pitchforks at your front gate it won’t do you much good. We are quickly headed for a world that Michael Ruppert said was in the making in his movie Collapse. And Michael admitted later on that in his film, he was way too optimistic.

  6. Rodster on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 9:34 am 

    ^^^ That said, i’m an equal opportunity hater. Great article posted on ZH.

    “Oliver Stone: Forget ISIS, America Is The Real Threat To The World….“American exceptionalism has to be driven out of our curriculums. We’re not under threat. We are the threat.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-22/oliver-stone-forget-isis-america-real-threat-world

  7. penury on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 9:35 am 

    Davy OT but there is a good rant by Ron Paul today on Zero Hedge. But back to money matters. The U.S. is currently owed around 19 trillion dollars by the EMs As their currencies continue to weaken we may have a problem. Remember their debts are our assets. A strong dollar may make for good publicity however, if it gets overly strong it will destroy the balance of trade and eventually the currency itself.When your largest and in some cases your only supplier of manufactured goods has an extreme monetary issue I think the pain will become sufficient for all.

  8. Davy on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 10:19 am 

    Pen, any variance from the goldilocks range is bad for all economies eventually. That is the inconvenient truth for those with agendas that want to preach winners and losers. This is a zero sum gain when all are interconnected as our global world is. That said this will strike different economies at different times at different degrees. In the end we are all toast because of debt and deflation.

  9. ennui2 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 12:24 pm 

    Where do I start? What is FSoA? New York “Shity”? References to Illuminati? This guy is a clueless douche.

  10. J-Gav on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 12:33 pm 

    All toast? Well then, just slap some butter and blueberry jam on that sucker and enjoy while you can.

  11. Lawfish1964 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 1:38 pm 

    “This guy is a clueless douche.” Really? At least he backed his statements up with facts.

  12. GregT on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 1:45 pm 

    The corns are getting angry Lawfish.

    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

    The self evidence in this case, is not going to be overly pleasant.

  13. Apneaman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 2:07 pm 

    The Brutal Truth About Today’s World By Steve Cutts

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofzPtqwIf6E

  14. apneaman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 2:29 pm 

    Davy, yabut RE is a dickhead sometimes and I’ve been bashing him for years. He is good with the econ and energy stuff. Credit due.

  15. Davy on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 2:50 pm 

    Ape Man, good we all need a daily ass kicken to prepare us for what is ahead especially cocky bastards like you and I. Ha

  16. onlooker on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 3:23 pm 

    Apeman thanks for that link to vid “Brutal truth” shows in stark detail the pointless and dead end of the world we live in. Enslaved to a form of life that is killing us and the planet. What is most sad is the fat cats who believe somehow that they are the fortunate ones. Maybe like the aristocracy and royalty of France before the French Revolution. I am tempted to quote from the bible “For what does it profit a man to gain all the kingdoms of the world yet lose his soul”

  17. Rodster on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 3:31 pm 

    Speaking of currencies in the crapper. I guess we can now change the name from BRICS to RICS.

    “Meanwhile, Brazil’s Currency Just Plunged To An All-Time Low…”

    On Monday, we updated the rapidly deteriorating situation in Brazil which for the uninitiated, faces a laundry list of seemingly intractable problems which Goldman recently summarized as follows:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-22/meanwhile-brazils-currency-just-plunged-all-time-low

    “Economic Collapse Full Frontal: The Brazil Case Study”
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-21/economic-collapse-full-frontal-brazil-case-study

  18. apneaman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 3:39 pm 

    onlooker, you are welcome. Those pics were taken/borrowed? from the very creative and talented illustrator and animator Steve Cutts – the guy who did the “MAN” animation.

    MAN

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU

    I love this one too. Take a look at what the guy does near the end 1:24. That’s me the moment I became a (Big picture) determinist. I may be an uber doomer, but I sleep like a baby every night.

    In The Fall

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-rEb0KuopI

  19. apneaman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 4:16 pm 

    Gwynne Dyer: This migrant crisis is only a warm-up for the main act

    “This is not what might happen if the world’s governments don’t make the right deal at the climate summit in Paris in December. This is what almost certainly will happen even if they do make the right deal now. A considerable amount of warming is already locked into the system no matter what we do about the climate now – enough to produce that kind of refugee flow in the future.

    There is not the slightest sign that EU policy-makers have taken this on board. If they are taken by surprise again, the European Union may collapse. So may several southern European states.”

    Read more: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/columnists/gwynne-dyer-this-migrant-crisis-is-only-a-warm-up-for-the-main-act-1-7472368#ixzz3mVKYDRCz

  20. ghung on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 4:17 pm 

    And then there was Robert Crumb of Zap Comics fame.

  21. Rodster on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 4:21 pm 

    “Gwynne Dyer: This migrant crisis is only a warm-up for the main act

    “This is not what might happen if the world’s governments don’t make the right deal at the climate summit in Paris in December.”

    I’m still not buying the migrant crisis as solely a CC problem. I still say the migrant crisis was brought about the US and Europe wanting to destabilize Syria and the ME region which they did. I sure as well would not want to live in a neighborhood where bombs are going off, little to no work because of warlike conditions having to raise a family.

  22. onlooker on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 4:30 pm 

    Yes that is my interpretation also. The powerful countries are trying to exert control and control the uncontrollable. Too much at stake in the ME region to leave it alone or care how much instability is unleashed. The religious divides there are real but the ongoing War on Terror and clash of Islam and Christianity is a propaganda campaign to rile up people even more. In the case of the ME the chaos is paradoxically a manner of control so that this regions becomes no mans land and the military (s) can fill the vacuum and vie over the entire region to have access to the OIL. A dangerous game indeed.

  23. apneaman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 4:50 pm 

    Rodster, I have yet to read an article where anyone said AGW was the sole cause of the crisis. I have read many comments where the posters, like you, say they don’t buy that AGW is the sole cause. I wonder where that comes from?

  24. Rodster on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 5:52 pm 

    “I wonder where that comes from?”

    I read an AGW article posted yesterday on truth-out.org and while I agree that CC has created many problems we face today and in the future, the author believes that AGW is behind the migrant crisis. I don’t believe that.

  25. GregT on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 6:05 pm 

    I don’t believe that either.

    I’m with Rodster:

    “I still say the migrant crisis was brought about the US and Europe wanting to destabilize Syria and the ME region which they did.”

    Except that the US and Europe in my mind are the US and European oligarchs. Europe is now in the destabilization process as well.

    Ordo Ab Chao

  26. Makati1 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 6:07 pm 

    The Us is behind all of the ME/EU/S.America/Africa/Asia’s problems. Prior to their meddling, there was relative peace in the ME. Asia was building a new trade system, and S.America and Africa was moving forward out of the colonial grip of the West.

    But, the empire is dying and since they have no ‘diplomats’ who can think or deal (Kerry/Rice/Nuland – actually, the rest of the world is waking up to the lies and tactics of the Us) all that is left is chaos and the plan to keep the world at each other’s throats so the MIC can sell weapons and make big bucks and the Empire can continue for another day, week, month, year. It’s ALL about money and power. And the USD is losing.

  27. onlooker on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 6:38 pm 

    Yep the dying throes of an empire that refuses to to quietly into the night

  28. onlooker on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 6:39 pm 

    Yep the dying throes of an empire that refuses to go quietly into the night

  29. apneaman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 6:48 pm 

    Rodster, Greg. I believe it is a combination of the factors. Both the written and archaeological record show we migrate when climate changes to the point where not enough food can be produced and there is no other alternative – like importation. Same as with war – migration. Same as with dire economic conditions – migration. We did not colonize every ecosystem on the planet just because we like the scenery. I agree with Dyer – we ain’t seen nothing yet.

  30. Cassie on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 7:12 pm 

    One needs hope to live. You can’t look at your children and ask which one is next, to be killed or to have no future. Much the same thing in the end.

    So you send a family representative – the father, an uncle, the brothers – to pave a path. Or you take what you have left, give it to a smuggler and pray to make it to shore, huddled and tossed on the waves as the smell of fear runs rampant.

    This is the future for maybe all of us. Be careful with how you offer or don’t offer compassion to those with their hands out. They will remember.

  31. Makati1 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 7:45 pm 

    Cassie, compassion is an option for those with extra to share. When the SHTF, it is everyone for himself. If you believe anything different, check out the history of the species. A few well publicized exceptions are just that.

    Tell your touchy feely idea to those Vietnamese/Koreans/Iraqis/etc. who were murdered by our own “compassionate” American soldiers. The Us reaches out with napalm, not compassion.

  32. Rodster on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 8:20 pm 

    A seventeen year old Syrian girl who left Syria for Germany with her parents was interviewed by Sky World News and was asked why she left Syria with her parents.

    She did not mention, excessive heat, droughts or famine. No, her answer was, Syria is a war zone, and as such I can’t go to school or go outside and play without the threat of a bomb going off. Syria is just not safe to live. Others were interviewed and said they would be willing to go back if it was safe to do so.

  33. Truth Has A Liberal Bias on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 8:35 pm 

    People steal before they starve. Any anthropologist will tell you that. At the moment folks from MENA are migrating to Europe looking for a better land. If it is not offered it will be taken. It won’t be long until the mass migrants arrive on the beaches well armed and prepared to fight for what they want.

  34. Makati1 on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 10:35 pm 

    First Iceland and the banksters evicted. Now Uruguay and the corporatocracy’s secret trade agreement is refused. What’s the world coming to? Independence from the Empire?

    http://wolfstreet.com/2015/09/22/uruguay-does-unthinkable-rejects-global-corporatocracy-tisa/

    “The Treaty That Must Not Be Named

    Earlier this month Uruguay’s government decided to end its participation in the secret negotiations of the Trade in Services Agreement (TISA). After months of intense pressure led by unions and other grassroots movements that culminated in a national general strike on the issue – the first of its kind around the globe – the Uruguayan President Tabare Vazquez bowed to public opinion and left the US-led trade agreement.

    Despite – or more likely because of – its symbolic importance, Uruguay’s historic decision has been met by a wall of silence. Beyond the country’s borders, mainstream media has refused to cover the story.”

    Interesting.

  35. Bloomer on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 11:03 pm 

    The Canadian Loonie has already collapsed. Food prices are rising along with many other goods and services. If you live on the West Coast gas prices have barely come off their highs in spite of the drop in crude oil. A cheaper dollar is good for exporters, but not so good for Canadian consumers.

  36. jjhman on Tue, 22nd Sep 2015 11:37 pm 

    It’s sorta boring to keep hearing that everything is the fault of some powerful, nefarious operators who also happen to secretly rule the US,sometimes Europe, and sometimes Russia and China. But always the US.

    The obvious fact is that there are numerous causes of the mass migration out of the middle east. Part of the fault certainly belongs to the US but not out of some long term scheming by an ‘Illuminati” but by the sheer stupidity of a string of foreign policy dimwits. You can also blame the British and French for total mis-management of the area when they controlled it between the world wars. Yes most of those issues had to do with trying to control access to the region’s oil.

    But the culture of the area bears, perhaps, an equal part of the blame. Islam may be a perfectly useful culture in a world that looks like the 7th century but it has failed to adapt to much of anything that has happened in the past 1,000 years or so. It has encouraged weak states that seem to only be able to survive under brutal dictatorships and the clan mentality simply can’t distinguish between family loyalty and corruption. Mix all of that with culturally sanctioned high birth rates, the impotence of a culture created in sweeping military victory under Mohammed and enough access to modern telecommunication and you end up with a cargo cult with a population above 100 million souls and a over developed streak of violence. I think the Bush II invasion was simply the detonator for an explosion that has been building up since 1918.

  37. Makati1 on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 12:08 am 

    jjhman, the exodus exists because of the Empire’s need for chaos to keep their only export, war and it’s materials alive. The Empire is losing and the only way they can prolong it is by creating chaos in every country they can, including their own and Europe.

    The Us is trashed. 22%+ real unemployment. Debt far exceeding even it hyped up GDP. 47+ million of it’s citizens are in or near poverty. Another 50%+ are supported by the government teat ( actually by the small percentage that actually have a paying job). Life expectancy falling. Healthcare costs going to the moon. Drug use of all kinds proliferating. A military that has not won a war in the last century, even against the uneducated, ill equipped 3rd world. And on and on. To deny it is to deny the truth. But many here still do.

  38. apneaman on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 1:09 am 

    jjhman, I agree with almost everything you say, but it is a broad brush stroke to say Islam, like it’s a billion people who all share identical beliefs in a multitude of countries. It’s the equivalent of saying all Christians are the same in every country and have been for a millennial. Were talking a whole civilization here. One that was once the greatest in the world for a time until “The West” supplanted them. Many of our achievements and advances would not have happened when and how they did without standing on their shoulders so to speak. That’s quite normal actually. The Islamic golden age started with working from the Greeks accomplishments and advanced – we did the same working from the accomplishments of both starting with the Renaissance. Some still don’t like to admit this but it’s true. Their civilizations history is just as complicated and varied as ours. For example, The Ottomans took Constantinople in 1453 and started the great period of their empire. The empire that lasted until just after WWI. The Muslim Turks are still there and seem to be a fairly modern society in comparison to MENA. I would imagine most of their middle and working class have no desire for sharia law and the rest of it. The Ottoman empire was Muslim, yet other parts of the Islamic world had already regressed in part due to fundamentalism centuries before. The 1000 year claim is inaccurate. Tons of research for anyone interested. That being said, yes the fundies are fucked up too and own a share of the mess. Did you ever hear George Bush talk about god and crusade before the invasion? He is not alone in his whacked out christian fundamentalism. They are well represented in the military too. As far as I’m concerned, anybody who believes in any of the fairy tales in any religious text, no matter how benign the interpretation, is delusional and potentially dangerous under the right/wrong conditions. Once you take away the wealth of the West, post collapse, I bet we will see similar fundi regression in a number of countries. The deep south in particular seems primed for a Confederate Taliban.

  39. Rodster on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 7:25 am 

    “The Us is trashed. 22%+ real unemployment. Debt far exceeding even it hyped up GDP. 47+ million of it’s citizens are in or near poverty. ”

    While I won’t disagree with the above the same can be said about Brazil, China and a host of other Asian EM. The Chinese lie about their data just like the US. In fact it’s been largely rumored that when China was reporting double digit growth it was probably in the low single digits. And now their economy has either flatlined or gone in reverse.

    The Asian economies i.e. BRICS have used the Western model for growth and expansion.

    This is not just a US problem as we can all see what’s already happening in China.

  40. Rodster on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 7:30 am 

    Here’s a perfect example, just posted on Zero Hedge.

    “Keep Reporting On Bright Economic Future” – China Ministry Of Truth Demands Media “Properly Interpret” Data.

    Both state and independent media have been pressured to keep economic reporting upbeat and to downplay the stock market crash last month as well as slumps earlier in the summer.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-22/keep-reporting-bright-economic-future-china-ministry-truth-demands-media-properly-in

  41. Rodster on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 8:07 am 

    “The Story Of China Is The Story Of Japan… Just 10x Bigger”

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/3526426-the-story-of-china-is-the-story-of-japan-just-10x-bigger

  42. BobInget on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 9:23 am 

    Signs of coming oil shortages.

    French energy group Total announced Wednesday that is was slashing capital spending, delaying the start date of several projects and upping its cost-cutting targets in a response to dramatically lower global oil prices.

    In the group’s Strategy and Outlook presentation Wednesday, Total’s Chief Executive Patrick Pouyanne told investors that the group was reducing the amount it spends on oil and gas projects from a peak of $28 billion in 2013 to $23-24 billion this year and further to $20-21 billion in 2016.

    The group saw a “sustainable level” of capex of $17-19 billion from 2017 onwards, according to the presentation.

    Total was one of the first oil majors to announce a sharp cost-cutting regime in 2014, reacting quicker than others to the sharp decline in global oil prices on the back of a glut in supply and lack of demand. From a peak price of $114 a barrel in June 2014, now, a barrel of benchmark Brent crude costs $49.66.

  43. BobInget on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 9:24 am 

    I’ll bet everyone here knows why Norway’s currency remains strong.

  44. BobInget on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 9:28 am 

    Youse guys continue to deny oil wars despite the fact that we call them ‘oil wars’.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11882195/US-trained-Division-30-rebels-betrayed-US-and-hand-weapons-over-to-al-Qaedas-affiliate-in-Syria.html

  45. BobInget on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 9:33 am 

    Summary of Weekly Petroleum Data for the Week Ending September 18, 2015
    U.S. crude oil refinery inputs averaged 16.2 million barrels per day during the week
    ending September 18, 2015, 310,000 barrels per day less than the previous week’s
    average. Refineries operated at 90.9% of their operable capacity last week. Gasoline
    production increased last week, averaging over 9.5 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel
    production increased slightly last week, averaging 5.1 million barrels per day.

    U.S. crude oil imports averaged 7.2 million barrels per day last week, down by 13,000
    barrels per day from the previous week. Over the last four weeks, crude oil imports
    averaged over 7.4 million barrels per day, 2.0% below the same four-week period last
    year. Total motor gasoline imports (including both finished gasoline and gasoline
    blending components) last week averaged 504,000 barrels per day. Distillate fuel imports
    averaged 164,000 barrels per day last week.

    U.S. commercial crude oil inventories (excluding those in the Strategic Petroleum
    Reserve) decreased by 1.9 million barrels from the previous week. At 454.0 million
    barrels, U.S. crude oil inventories remain near levels not seen for this time of year in at
    least the last 80 years. Total motor gasoline inventories increased by 1.4 million barrels
    last week, and are in the upper half of the average range. Finished gasoline inventories
    stayed same while blending components inventories increased last week. Distillate fuel
    inventories decreased by 2.1 million barrels last week but are in the middle of the average
    range for this time of year. Propane/propylene inventories fell 0.6 million barrels last
    week but are well above the upper limit of the average range. Total commercial
    petroleum inventories decreased by 2.9 million barrels last week.

    Total products supplied over the last four-week period averaged 19.7 million barrels per
    day, up by 1.6% from the same period last year.

    Over the last four weeks, motor gasoline
    product supplied averaged about 9.2 million barrels per day, up by 3.0% from the same
    period last year. Distillate fuel product supplied averaged 3.8 million barrels per day over
    the last four weeks, up by 1.3% from the same period last year. Jet fuel product supplied
    is up 5.7% compared to the same four-week period last year.

  46. BobInget on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 9:48 am 

    Today’s EIA Repore confirms an earlier article I posted declaring gasoline consumption highest in years.

    1) with ‘only’ 91% of refineries operating in this conversion period still 19.7 million barrels a day went up in smoke.
    2) Imports eased off permitting a small but meaningful storage deficit.
    3) Jet fuel and other distillates are up nicely year over year. (I watch jet fuel, not paper oil)

    This year’s corn crop was one of the biggest in years. (maybe biggest ever) While farmers will just break even, they will need to replenish billions of gallons of diesel used to feed ethanol and sweetened soft drinks. If it were not for low diesel prices most farmers might go broke.

    Watch this space NEXT harvest season for exciting news. Oil & food prices will never, I mean never, be this low again.

    The Fed needs inflation, it’s inflation they will get.

  47. Makati1 on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 10:21 am 

    Rodster, I hope you don’t actually believe what you stated about China’s growth in single digits. I’m not talking about China’s news and reports. I’m talking about independent sources outside China stating that it has had double digit growth for decades. That it is now around 7% is still being reported by outside sources. Even the Ps has 6% growth on average. The US is the one with negative growth (contraction) pretending to have +2% or higher. LOL

  48. zoidberg on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 10:41 am 

    Us gets it last but China becomes the new financial center afterwards.

  49. Davy on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 11:12 am 

    Rodster, you and I know China’s growth is not real on multiple levels. Bad debt has been extended and pretended down the road. Malinvestment in excess capacity and unneeded infrastructure is huge. Destructive development and pollution rife across the country.

    What China does is goal seeks objectives of its incompetent leadership. If they want more growth they make it up (within reason). If they want so many roads they put it in even if it is not needed. China is a malignant cancer destroying the world through increasing consumption from an overpopulated country and region.

    Some here mysteriously praise this while they complain about climate change. Just today this hypocrite howled about how bad the oil patch is but then in his next comment talks up China’s growth and development. How is one growth good and another bad per climate change? Per climate change all growth is bad. You can’t have the cake and eat it but this individual is determined to have his pro-China agenda and maintain he is against development and climate change.

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/15/news/economy/china-gdp-economic-statistics/
    In 2007, Li Keqiang, a Chinese provincial official, let the American ambassador in on a little secret: China’s GDP figures are “man-made” and therefore “unreliable.”
    He told the ambassador that most of the country’s economic data, and especially its GDP, should be used for “reference only,” according to a diplomatic cable published by Wikileaks.

    Li, an economist by training, is now China’s prime minister. But back in 2007, when he was still a rising party official, he described a preferred alternate method for measuring economic growth: look at electricity consumption, railway freight volume, and bank loans.
    On Wednesday, the debate over the accuracy of China’s GDP figures was revived after officials announced that the economy grew by 7% in the second quarter — a level that few economists thought probable. First quarter GDP also came in at 7%, and Beijing’s official growth target for 2015 is … you guessed it: 7%.

  50. Rodster on Wed, 23rd Sep 2015 11:28 am 

    “Rodster, I hope you don’t actually believe what you stated about China’s growth in single digits. I’m not talking about China’s news and reports.”

    YES! According to many published articles on Zero Hedge along with Chris Martenson of peakprosperity.com as well as Charles Hugh Smith, China’s numbers are all a SHAM. They were never growing at the rates they claimed but they fudged the numbers to make their GDP look good.

    There was even an Asian economist who said back at the height of China’s explosive growth they were only growing between 3-5% GDP.

    It’s NO different in the US, the departments from the BLS, OMB are cooking the books. As i’ve said, i’m an equal opportunity hater and China is a mirage built on a Shadow Banking system, $25-30 TRILLION of monopoly money into it’s system along with ghost cities, ghost factories with bridges and roads leading to nowhere.

    You are already seeing the Brazilian currency and economy collapsing. The COLLAPSE is taking place everywhere, right now. As the article I linked, China is Japan only ten times worse.

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