[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
Your complaint is based on the idea that change can not take place.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
Your complaint is based on the idea that change can not take place.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
Just because your mind was made up decades ago about how the world works does not mean the rest of us must accept your refusal to change as a requirement for ourselves.

When Diesel was running at close to $5/gallon here in the midwest a lot of short haul trucking was still done but even more of the long haul variety was shifted to rail transport which is greatly more fuel efficient. IOW real human beings out here in the real world adapt to altered circumstances, they don't just throw up their hands in surrender and die without trying to adapt.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')anada; " IOW real human beings out here in the real world adapt to altered circumstances, they don't just throw up their hands in surrender and die without trying to adapt."

[onlooker]

I think several problems arise in this "real world" adaptation. First off, the huge numbers of people complicate adaptation in terms of providing for all the needs of everyone. Second, the gradual evolutionary progress made in attaining higher standards of living and a more diverse and complex civilization, was organized and planned in stages . Collapse by definition will not be very organized or planned, almost certainly not gradual and thus presents acute challeges. Third, the governing elite and wealthy class who are closely linked to them, are and will be the last to forgo the current system ie. Capitalism, as it is most advantegous to them. And since they are the ones making the decisions, a deliberate powerdown policy seems unlikely at least not until utterly necessary. So, as the contraction and chaos becomes more extreme, it is implausible to not expect barbaric and violent behavior in the fight for survival. As well as selfish behavior. So, if the world could not unite in these relatively stable times. it does seem far fetched to expect it too in the coming more turbulent times. At best, pockets of resilient communties may exist which have prepared and united to confront the challenges. And in the wider society perhaps an authoritarian type of command and control power structure will be devised in some countries to allow a still somewhat large number of people to survive yet also allow the ruling wealthy elite class to retain their relative priviledged positions.

But make no mistake about it, though at first the rich countries will adapt to some degree to PO, ultimately these same countries are the most vulnerable to it because of their reliance on prodigious amouts of energy to provide the necessities and keep their Economies viable.

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '-')snip-

But make no mistake about it, though at first the rich countries will adapt to some degree to PO, ultimately these same countries are the most vulnerable to it because of their reliance on prodigious amouts of energy to provide the necessities and keep their Economies viable.

[onlooker]

Kaiser, I think that can be the case but in a limited way. Certainly, some waste and inefficiency exists. But if you look at the graph which I include, the energy expenditure by Sector, depicts are relatively small percentage of total use in actual consumption. The largest expenditures of Energy by far are in the Industrial, Electricity and Transportation Sectors. So, if a significant amount of energy is not available, the very necessary and important functions of a modern industrial society like the US is severely hampered.

As for 6% of income on food, well that presupposes people are employed. If basic infrastructure and economic activites are curtailed that will affect tremendously the level of people employed. The excess energy and waste is sometimes actually peoples jobs. In this day and age, we have come to rely so much on electricity and computers as you well know. So a deficiency in energy to power the Electrical grids would have profoundly negative consequences. So it really is a myth that so much waste and excess energy exists We have developed and designed our societies to our eventual chagrin, to rely on and utilize abundant energy to power the crucial and necessary systems that keep people alive and functioning productively in an organized society.

[onlooker]

2000px-US_energy_consumption_by_sector.svg.png

Sorry forgot the graph