[gg3]

Airline Pilot, with all due respect, you're wrong. First of all, the Church Committee hearings were in the 1970s, which is too far from 2001 to be causal. And see below about what's been killing our intel capabilities in recent years.

Al Qaeda had its roots in the Afghani Mujahedeen, who in turn were supported largely by the US for the purpose of getting the USSR the hell out of Afghanistan. And while I dismiss 95% of the 9/11 conspiracy theories as BS, the fact remains that we did in fact plant the seeds that grew into a monster. We supported the Taliban as part of our Cold War strategy.

The Taliban were a bunch of abject barbarians and frankly we should have seen that from miles away. But the "realpolitik" crowd (the polar opposite of your "crybabies") won the day and we looked the other way as they built a barbarian regime. Music forbidden, children forbidden to play, soccer halftime entertainment in the form of public beheadings at the stadium, women treated as property, violence, brutality, and in general a human rights record of which Pol Pot would have been proud.

Along with which came sanctuary and training-grounds for Al Qaeda. And when that monster got big enough, it reared up on its reptilian haunches and took a bite out of us. No, we couldn't have foreseen the exact form it would take. But yes, anyone with half an ounce of common sense knows that if you like to sleep with snakes, sooner or later you get bitten in the butt.

So about our intel capabilities, and military capabilities generally.

Here you have an administration led by a guy who wiggled out of going to Vietnam, and run by a bunch of people who are so hooked on their own ideological theories that they have f---ed up at almost every turn.

No sooner was the battle engaged, when Admin spokespeople would blabber all over the news about "picking up terrorist chatter," i.e. intercepting terrorist electronic communications. Thereby dealing a serious blow to our SIGINT (signals intelligence) capabilities, as Al Q switched over to hand couriers and other non-electronic communications. Major loss there.

Then we have the Plame affair. Destruction of HUMINT (human intel) capabilities on two counts. One, she & her crew were hot on the trail of real WMDs including Iranian nuclear weapons capabilities. Two, her so-called cover gig was probably another NOC (a NOC within a NOC, and please let's not have any NOC-NOC jokes!), whose tasks included getting the real Saudi oil reserve numbers -a major Saudi state secret of vital interest to the US.

Taking down Plame benefited Iran in two ways. One by taking the heat off their nuclear ambitions, and two by preserving the status quo balance of power over oil, allowing Iran greater wiggle-room in that area. Outing Plame was pure stupid vengeance on the part of Rove and a few of his pals, and Chalabi probably celebrated the day it happened. And the impact of this on morale at Langley cannot be overstated.

Then we have the Iranian Crypto affair. A high Admin official was taken out for a night of drinking by one of Chalabi's boys, during which time he bragged that the US had broken all of Iran's highest level military and diplomatic encryption systems. That information was relayed to Iran within 24 hours. And the impact was equivalent to telling Mussolini that the Allies had broken Hitler's codes. This by the way, is treason treason treason, high treason at the highest level, in wartime. And the stupid idiot who blabbed didn't even have the common sense to be prepared for oldfashioned spy tradecraft -a night of drinking with a spy, for God's sake!- and know enough to decline the offer and keep his damn mouth shut. This one damned leak has set US SIGINT back five years in the entire region, and you can believe that morale at Meade is as shot to hell as it is at Langley. BTW, I know the SIGINT field quite well, and I am on 100% solid ground with my WW2 comparison. The damage done by this one leak was absolutely enormous.

Then we have the Office of Special Plans, which may as well have been the Ministry of Silly Walks, for all its professional analytic capability. Twisting the facts to fit the policy, as a high official of England's military intelligence put it in his report, which has since come to be known as the Downing Street Minutes. Twisting the facts to fit the policy. That's a real good way to win a war, isn't it?

So then we come to the rest of the bloody debacle.

Going into Iraq on an overt and outright lie (Nigerian yellowcake and WMD threat generally), which is an impeachable offense (lying to Congress).

Going in with an optimistic forecast for the maneuver phase (combat ops), and no plan whatsoever for the post-manuever phase (peacekeeping). All on the basis of more soothing syrup from Chalabi about being welcomed with flowers.

Inadequate troop strength, inadequate munitions, inadequate armor, inadequate training for the conditions. Unqualified individuals put in charge of detention facilities. Self-serving exemptions from the Geneva Conventions, and a policy of overt torture that has left a stain on our nation's flag that dwarfs the stain on Monica's blue dress. And slowly but surely, casualty by casualty, "that giant sucking sound" (to quote an old Reagan phrase) this time is the sound of boots and wheels getting stuck in the God-forsaken quicksand of a growing quagmire.

I'm no leftie, but I'm bloody well pissed.

My mom saw #2, my sister in law saw #3, and I have a close friend who's about to go back for his second tour in Iraq, where as he says, "the weather is 103 in the shade with occasional incoming mortar rounds."

I'm fed up with a chickenhawk administration led by a draft evader and run by a bunch of theoreticians who are so hooked on ideology that they have fallen prey to a nest of Iranian spies, have run our military capabilities right into the ground, and have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Give me a President Powell or a President Clark any day, and we will see real coalitions, and we will also see Osama in handcuffs at the Hague or in smithereens in a cave.

And as for the current bunch, history will show them to be the worst kind of liars and incompetents. They have no shame, they have no integrity, and they have no honor. They have done this nation real harm. Real and lasting harm.

[CrudeAwakening]

What I find astonishing is that the 9-11 plotters decided not to attack nuclear facilities, because they were worried "things would get out of control". Those crazy nihilistic terrorists!

The Indian Point nuclear reactor is just 40 miles from Ground Zero. It would have been a cakewalk for those scheming terrorists to fly into IP, particularly with the US air defenses AWOL.

But no, they decided against it, because maybe it would have been a bit TOO destructive. They have the opportunity to cut off a leg and they choose to trim a toenail. Yeah, right; as EC said, something in the milk ain't clean.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ohammed said planning for the attacks began 2 years before Sept. 11 and that the first targets considered were nuclear facilities.

We "decided against it for fear it would go out of control," Fouda quoted Mohammed as saying. "You do not need to know more than that at this stage, and anyway it was eventually decided to leave out nuclear targets -- for now."

[EnemyCombatant]

gg4, mind if I borrow that text and re-use it. I could never articulate the argument that well.

I hate to beat a dead horse to death, but listen to crude awakening.

If there were an al quaeda, they could have crossed the mexican border a thousand times and wreaked havoc througout the country.

Why do you think the Dept of Homeland security leaves the border open and also our ports?

Welll Duh!

They know there is no such thing as an Al Quada. It's Al CIAda. Which means the terrorists get their marching orders from Washington, not a cave.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '"')Al Quaeda is Al CIAda. If Al Quaeda were real, they could bring the world to it's knees. The Illuminati are calling the shots and pulling the strings. Al CIAda are just pawns on the grand chessboard"

Whoa! This is getting too weird for me.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FireJack', 'W')e don't steal their resources, we pay for them. Saudi Arabians aren't exactly short on oil themselves, or money for that matter..

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'I') have wondered at the relentless attacks on Iraqi oil infrastructure yet there seems to be none anywhere else.

[AirlinePilot]

gg3,

Excellent cogent arguments all, If you bite off on some slightly irrational conspiracy thoeries. I don't. I DO agree we screwed the pooch with regard to who we backed, when we did it, and the results we see now are due to what we sowed back then.

I was simply stating that it's not a valid argument to claim that NORAD was cuaght with thier pants down or that the "operation of the century" was somehow pulled off with the help, knowledge, and planning of ANYBODY in our country either military or political. I know from first hand knowledge that it just wasn't that hard to do any of what we saw.

I too am ashamed of how we have bumbled through everything with regards to Iraq and I agree WMDs etc were a lie. I personally believe the lies were created to get our foot in the door to securing what may be the only oil resources of any size left on the planet. This does NOT mean I agree with it, just that is how I see it.

I also submit that while your arguments make sense with regard to the destruction of our intelligence community, they are not 100% accurate. I know one member of my own extended family who has spent a LONG time watching this from a front row seat in our premier intel establishment and it's just not quite the way you see it. I will never say however you are wrong. That's a pretty smug judgement to make about anyone's claim of accuracy or opinion. The reality is there are degrees of accuracy and innacuracy, no one in here likely knows the true story. I have my opinion and you have yours. Your entitled to it. I just happen to not agree

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'E')xcellent cogent arguments all, If you bite off on some slightly irrational conspiracy thoeries. I don't. I DO agree we screwed the pooch with regard to who we backed, when we did it, and the results we see now are due to what we sowed back then.

[AirlinePilot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', ' ')All the conspiracy stuff comes from the faulty position that had the government wanted to stop the 9-11 hijackers they could have. Well here is a major revelation. They COULDN'T stop them. Hell they couldn't stop girl scouts from selling cookies if they wanted to.

[evilmonkeyspanker]

Let me see if I can take a crack at this conspiracy stuff

Lets say I am a certain organization within the us government (or outside it) and we have known all along about Peak Oil and we know that is real. Only problem is our country does not have the reserves to supply our own demand let alone the demand required by our military machine, what would I decide the best course of action would be.

What do I know...
1. The middleeast contains a majority of the oil in the world.
2. There has been tons of fighting thoughout the region for some time controlled by different groups of state sponsored terrorist organizations.
3. The cost of fuel in this country will be likely to begin rising, this will upset the fabric of our suvee / dsl / mclifestyle which will in turn the american public against any adminstration currently in office.
4 If we did announce that Peak Oil was real, most of the masses would say it was just a conspiracy to raise oil prices as this would hurt their free loving lifestyle.
5. Americans love the Rocky "us against them scenario"
6. Americans do not wish to go to war they are lazy and insepedly stupid.
7. Gaining control of a perticuler infrastructure within the middle east would give a strategic place to put military bases which in turn would in turn give us a good shot at putting pressure on the rest of middle eastern nations to play only ball with us.


Now if I am part of this group, how could I get the american people behind the government.

1. Fear
2. Drama and Bloodshed
3. Severe loss of life.


Now who to blame to get the most bang for our buck.

1. Iraq -- No too apparent
2. Iran -- Possible but also to apparent
3 Some Terrorist organization mad at us for our continued support of israel -- just perfect


How can we go about this / what would be the best place to attack / largest amount of casualty / press coverage / ext...

1. Nuclear Power Plant -- a Chernobyl meltdown would be too massive of damage
2. The empire state building -- possible but perhaps not enough casualties
3. The world trade center -- Just Perfect.


Then all that is left is too brainwash some arabs we have recently captured to pull this off ala the manchurian canidate

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('auctionmonster', 'L')et me see if I can take a crack at this conspiracy stuff