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Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Bas » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 21:04:29

ah yes plantagenet, a small gesture compared to what we're talking about here.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Ferretlover » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 21:16:15

Bas, you are not explaining yourself very well...
Why do you care what aid the US does or doesn't give?
Did you apply for aid and not get it?
Do you think that the US, so far in debt it will take generations to pay it off, should be actively seeking some country to loan us more billions that we cannot pay off so that we can turn around and give the money away?
Why would any country want our nearly worthless dollars?
Do you think that, in spite of PO, aid should go out in unlimited amounts?
And, what kind of aid do you think the US should be providing? Food? Arms? Or, just the money to fatten someone's Swiss or Cayman Island accounts?
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 21:18:22

The Dutch may be a "small" people compared to the numerous Germans and the clever French and the world-conquering Brits, but they have developed a wonderfully free and open society in their coastal towns, their islands, and their marshland. Much like the city of Venice and the Venetto, the people of Amsterdam and the surrounding Netherlands have played a much larger role in history then their slight numbers would suggest possible.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby dissimulo » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 21:19:17

Excellent - it appears we are well on our way to getting our percentage down to zero. I'm glad Europe is willing to step up and give more so that I can hopefully keep a bit more of what I earn.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Kingcoal » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 21:20:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'o')k my country gives gives more than a quarter of what the US gives, but hey guess what! "my country" comromises of 16 million people, mathematical dimbulb.


Dimbulb? I could think of a better ad hominem than that. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o apart form being dismal donors America is even more dismal in terms of effectiveness.
Bas, if you want to point fingers and make comments like "pathetic", "dismal", "ineffectual" and my favorite; "sucks," then expect to get some replies that might not support your position.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Bas » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 21:22:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'B')as, you are not explaining yourself very well...
Why do you care what aid the US does or doesn't give?
Did you apply for aid and not get it?
Do you think that the US, so far in debt it will take generations to pay it off, should be actively seeking some country to loan us more billions that we cannot pay off so that we can turn around and give the money away?
Why would any country want our nearly worthless dollars?
Do you think that, in spite of PO, aid should go out in unlimited amounts?
And, what kind of aid do you think the US should be providing? Food? Arms? Or, just the money to fatten someone's Swiss or Cayman Island accounts?


I like you ferretlover, and I like the fact that you are "insulted" by this fact, because you should.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Bas » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 22:03:58

all the denial displayed here from people that are so called "open minded" great!
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Novus » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 22:06:42

The American government is cheap when it comes to foreign aid the American people privately are not. The number of NGO charities in America that give out aid directly to the needy around the world is far greater than the EU average. The Bill and Milinda Gates Foundation gives billions to the world's poor every year. If this one NGO was a country it would rank above both Sweden and Norway.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Bas » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 22:12:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'T')he American government is cheap when it comes to foreign aid the American people privately are not. The number of NGO charities in America that give out aid directly to the needy around the world is far greater than the EU average. The Bill and Milinda Gates Foundation gives billions to the world's poor every year. If this one NGO was a country it would rank above both Sweden and Norway.


the number of NGO's from America is far greater than the EU average; what's wrong with this reasoning? (I'm only from a very small country so I wouldn't know)
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby mekrob » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 22:24:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he American government is cheap when it comes to foreign aid the American people privately are not. The number of NGO charities in America that give out aid directly to the needy around the world is far greater than the EU average. The Bill and Milinda Gates Foundation gives billions to the world's poor every year. If this one NGO was a country it would rank above both Sweden and Norway.


True. Let's not also forget that helping people, giving charity, is more than just shoving a few bucks in an envelope and sending it to them. It's supplying them with technology, education and jobs. None of those show up on the $ rankings so those numbers simply don't show the entire picture with regards to aid to foreign nations.

Now I'm not saying that the US would be number one if a complete accounting were to be managed of all inputs of charity and their outcomes, but to simply look at dollar amounts is incorrect and doesn't show the whole story.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 22:56:23

About foreign aid.

Is it a good thing? Is a bad thing?
One (black) Kenyan economist has argued that it is a bad thing, because it undermines the local economy.

I support aid if it helps people to improve their own capacity for economic independence and self-management: by advice and material assistance on sustainable practices, health practices and so on.

But like an earlier poster said, so often it just adds a few more rich, corrupt individuals.

So, it's a big if.

Sub-Saharan Africa will most likely always be a disaster....but to state the fundamental reasons is politically incorrect. The number of extremely poor people (one $1 or less per day) in South Africa is now double what it was 10 years ago. No doubt the "evil Whites" are to be blamed.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby topcat » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 23:21:00

Bas -

How much money did you send to the US after Katrina?

How much money did you send to the US after the triple hurricanes the other year?

How much have you sent to the US after the Calif wildfires?

Haven't gotten your checks yet, still waiting.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby kadoomsoon » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 23:36:51

Aid should be a two way street.
Last edited by kadoomsoon on Wed 19 Dec 2007, 18:07:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby kadoomsoon » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 23:41:50

Aid is the american way.
Last edited by kadoomsoon on Wed 19 Dec 2007, 18:08:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Jack » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 23:48:03

If we spend even a penny on foreign aid, it is a penny too much. Cheap? My good fellow, we are not nearly cheap enough!

Give nothing. Not a cent. Not a grain of wheat or corn. Not so much as a used pair of underwear with a large hole in an embarrasing spot.

Nothing. Nada. Nill. Zip.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby kadoomsoon » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 23:52:07

Jack is wise beyond his years.
Last edited by kadoomsoon on Wed 19 Dec 2007, 18:09:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 13 Nov 2007, 00:36:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('topcat', 'B')as -

How much money did you send to the US after Katrina?

How much money did you send to the US after the triple hurricanes the other year?

How much have you sent to the US after the Calif wildfires?

Haven't gotten your checks yet, still waiting.


Fallacious argument.

I think those who oppose foreign aid aren't looking at the big picture.

Foreign aid helps to reduce needless suffering in some parts of the world, makes those people less likely to hate America, etc.

Foreign aid helps us get rid of diseases that would otherwise spread back to the 1st world. Small pox is a great example of this. If we didn't send out free immunizations to Africa, that disease would still be infecting Americans today.

Are you saying that we aren't better off without small pox?

Foreign aid helps to prop up governments that would otherwise collapse into chaos. Would you have preferred to watch Russia disintegrate into a military dictatorship in 1992? Nuclear weapons for sale on the open market by a psychotic former Soviet hardliner?

Have we forgotten the Marshall Plan so soon?

Can you imagine what the world would have looked like if Americans hadn't given billions of dollars (1940s dollars) to our long time friends and foes alike?

Millions of Europeans were slowly starving because of the incredible devastation of the War.

Would you have wanted the Soviet Union to take over Italy, France, West Germany, and Greece?

Without the Marshall Plan, America would have lost the Cold War.

The foreign aid opponents should try to widen their world view a little.

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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Tue 13 Nov 2007, 01:25:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Have we forgotten the Marshall Plan so soon?

Can you imagine what the world would have looked like if Americans hadn't given billions of dollars (1940s dollars) to our long time friends and foes alike?

Bretton Woods dollars (paper money to be treated as good as gold) = imperial servitude.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Millions of Europeans were slowly starving because of the incredible devastation of the War.

After the end of WWII large numbers of Germans were deliberately starved to death, although food supplies were available. In the Western occupation sectors prisoners of war were tortured, starved and left to die of exposure (can't comment on the Eastern sector as haven't had sources). Soldiers were told "no Geneva convention" .
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Would you have wanted the Soviet Union to take over Italy, France, West Germany, and Greece?

The Soviet Union was feted by the "American" press as a great force for "democracy". Ever noticed that the pretext by which the UK and France declared war on Germany was not applied to the Soviet Union? (Poland, a new creation of the Versailles Treaty, was partioned by the Soviets simulataneously). The Germans, unlike the Soviets, were in part (not entirely, I believe) recovering their own historical territory and protecting persecuted ethnic Germans? (A problem ignored by the League of Nations in spite of repeated requests from Germany.)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Without the Marshall Plan, America would have lost the Cold War.

Why, a conflict with the great ally, the Soviet Union?

And to come back to your first point:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Have we forgotten the Marshall Plan so soon?

Can you imagine what the world would have looked like if Americans hadn't given billions of dollars (1940s dollars) to our long time friends and foes alike?

Can you imagine what the world would look like if New York had not planned, instigated and funded the "Russian" revolution?
Last edited by Andrew_S on Tue 13 Nov 2007, 01:28:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Jack » Tue 13 Nov 2007, 01:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'F')oreign aid helps to reduce needless suffering in some parts of the world, makes those people less likely to hate America, etc.


Buying friends, are we? It won't work. Furthermore, I see no reason to reduce needless suffering. Their demise helps reduce the surplus population (with a tip of the hat to Dickens).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Foreign aid helps us get rid of diseases that would otherwise spread back to the 1st world. Small pox is a great example of this. If we didn't send out free immunizations to Africa, that disease would still be infecting Americans today.


Not true. We can vaccinate against smallpox. For that matter, controlling the borders would prevent a variety of diseases from spreading. Once again, let us permit nature to do her good work in mitigating overshoot.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Are you saying that we aren't better off without small pox?


No, we're not. The population of the third world needs a proper pruning.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Foreign aid helps to prop up governments that would otherwise collapse into chaos. Would you have preferred to watch Russia disintegrate into a military dictatorship in 1992? Nuclear weapons for sale on the open market by a psychotic former Soviet hardliner?


There's a lot of speculation here. I have no objection to a Russian military dictatorship. If that's what they want, fine. As for the nuclear weapons card, I am reminded of a certain President's representations about WMDs.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Have we forgotten the Marshall Plan so soon?


Lord knows I've tried.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Can you imagine what the world would have looked like if Americans hadn't given billions of dollars (1940s dollars) to our long time friends and foes alike?


More self-sufficient? And America would have looked more prosperous?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Millions of Europeans were slowly starving because of the incredible devastation of the War.


One word. Overshoot.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Would you have wanted the Soviet Union to take over Italy, France, West Germany, and Greece?


Again, pure speculation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Without the Marshall Plan, America would have lost the Cold War.


You clearly believe that; however, an assertion does not prove the point.

Foreign aid - just say NO!
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Re: Why are Americans so cheap when it comes to foreign aid?

Unread postby Denny » Tue 13 Nov 2007, 01:51:50

Before I can put any credibililty in this ranking, I want to know just what is the definition of "Official Development Assistance".

Does it include only money given to government authorized agencies? If so, in many cases, I wish it would be even lower, as the track record of most every western country's donations to third world governments is tainted, so much has gone to support of tyranny.

I would feel far more confident if all governments gave zero, and left the donating to the people themselves. I think far more highly of World Vision than I do of any government agency, either the donor type or the receiver type.

And, just what is wrong with religious variety of giving? The commitment and perseverance of missionaries in the third world to health and education, as well as extension of the faith, is truly heroic.
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