[Daculling]

Ok Brits, educate me.

What's with showing the "V" with your fingers? I've seen it before and aways responded with the middle finger (we all know what that means). Now, the "V" gesture can mean pease or victory but what is the origin and how do I properly use it? Is the open hand fasing or the backhand? I just want to bridge the culture

[Cola-Is-Petroleum]

I'm Australian, but I can help you out with your question. The open-hand facing "V" means peace, like how you would imagine it to be used at Woodstock. Back-handed it means something like "sod off", a British equivalent of sort to "the finger". The back-handed "V" likely originated from medieval times when English archers used those two fingers to pull back on their bows. They would do the back-handed "V" to the enemy as a taunt and to show the enemy that they were still capable of battle. Thats what I've read anyway.

[Tyler_JC]

It's funny you mention hand signals because I'm in the process of reading a book on Body Language (Manwatching by Desmond Morris). The book regards the V-sign as a cheerful, optimistic gesture in most cultures. Naturally, it is also a triumph display. England has two different versions of it. The palm facing outwards means victory or peace. The palm facing inwards is the worst obscenity one can make. To quote:

"Englishmen wishing to hurl a gestural insult while abroad have often been nonplussed at the total failure of this sign when directed, say, towards an Italian driver. The chances are that the victim of this gross abuse will smile happily and wave, before speeding off. The explanation, of course, is that to the Italians there are no subtle distinctions to be made between the two palm postures. All he sees is the V-shape made by the first and second fingers thrust aloft, and for him this can only spell victory." (P. 201)

PS. I guess I didn't add anything to this thread, but I did confirm Cola-Is-Petroleum's explanation.

[Raxozanne]

Cola, I read the same thing. The V was used to taunt the enemy to show that they still had the fingers they needed to pull back their longbows.

[Daculling]

I thought I found the anwser to the origin but snopes shot me down.

Pluck Yew

[Raxozanne]

UK and the insulting sign

The UK insulting version (performed with the palm inwards), performs a similar social function to "the finger". It is almost certainly unrelated in origin, as the insulting V sign is largely restricted to the UK, Ireland (and possibly commonwealth countries. It is recognised in Australia and New Zealand also), and "the finger" is traceable to Roman times.

An often-repeated legend has it that the insulting version originates from around the time of the Hundred Years War. According to the legend, the sign comes from a French threat to amputate the distinctive calloused bow fingers of captured English archers, as without those fingers they would be unable to draw their bows. Likewise the English might have used it themselves as a gesture of provocation (i.e. "Watch out - I've still got my fingers!"). There is little actual evidence to support these historical explanations, but the legend is certainly part of the cultural context of the sign.

Snopes has dealt at great length with a recent re-working of this myth which also related the phrase "fuck you" to the same origin, which is certainly untrue. [5] (http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm).

For a time in the UK "a Harvey (Smith)" became a way of describing the insulting version of the V-sign, much as the word of Cambronne is used in France, or "the Trudeau salute" is used to describe the one-fingered salute in Canada. This happened because in 1971 a show-jumper called Harvey Smith was disqualified for making a televised V-sign to the judges after winning the British Show Jumping Derby at Hickstead (Smith's win was reinstated two days later).

In Australia, the gesture is known as "the forks", as in "he gave me the forks", being an obvious reference to the resemblance of a fork by the protruding fingers. It is also occasionally known, as in the UK, as "the two fingers".

Increasingly such terms are losing currency as the one-fingered salute becomes more popular, especially amongst youth. However, a revival in the use of the two fingers has come about largely as the result of the continuing popularity of cult classic TV Series The Young Ones and the similarly counterculturally themed Trainspotting, which both featured characters making iconic use of the two fingers. Thus in an ironic way the forks have secured a niche position as the preferred gesture of a seemingly more sophisticated, underground, punk-driven audience, whilst the one-finger salute has become the rebellious mark of choice for the more mainstream devotees of Eminem , South Park and the like.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'V'_Sign

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'C')ola, I read the same thing. The V was used to taunt the enemy to show that they still had the fingers they needed to pull back their longbows.

[bobcousins]

And this from a guy who makes bows, so it must be true

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes the "V" sign really come from the English Archers at Agincourt?
Give me a break... Sorry to burst that bubble... but no, probably not. The "V" sign and the "bird" (Middle finger raised) are crude ways of depicting male and female genitalia. Our cave dwelling ancestors probably worked that one out, come on guys! Two raised fingers may have been used at Agincourt but it certainly did not mean;" Here I am and look I still have my two shooting fingers!" It had, by that time come to mean exactly the same as it does to-day. Our delightful Norman overlords cut the fingers from a poachers right hand long before Agincourt... and.. I would hazard a guess that the Saxons, Celts, Bretons, Jutes, Danes, Romans, Scythians etc all did the same. To my Knowledge there is only one late medieval drawing which shows an archer raising two fingers and even that is not definitive. The Agincourt story is a quaint little tale, and just that. With the amount of dysentery that had plagued the English army on their campaign I think that any amount of fingers would be better employed elsewhere!