[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')rying really really hard at something that doesn't work very well, at something that's doomed from the start - civilization - doesn't make it work any better.


Maybe let's try something different for a change, instead of the thing that's proven not to work.

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', '
')Were we doomed from the start, or didn't we try hard enough?

[thuja]

Go down fighting- hee hee

Pre-pubescent fantasies by drooling apocolyptists who've been playing way too much Doom.

Die-off is a misnomer that few here seem to get. Substitute the words Population Contraction for Die-off and you'll get a better idea of what is going to happen.

Contraction is a process of decreased fertility and lowered average lifespans- due to- increased poverty, less medical care, alcoholism/drug addiction, poor nutrition, etc etc. Take a look at the ex-Soviet Union States and much of Eastern Europe to understand what Die-off looks like- its a lot less fantastic than most here on the board would like to think.

Yes pin-point die-offs are likely to happen as they are happening or have happened right now in the Congo, Sudan, Iraq, North Korea and Rwanda. But population levels are likely to decrease in amuch less dramatic fashion worldwide, and certainly in more fertile and temperate First World countries.

So go down fighting? Fighting what? You're friend who just got fired from Countrywide? Your neighbor who can't pay for his ARM? The kids who are stealing from your wood pile? or picking apples out of your trees?

There is no one to fight- only gnawing poverty and ignorance. Put away the guns and start working on solutions in your community...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'W')e should take from the past all that is valuable to us and pass it onto our children. Let THEM decide which was right, and which was wrong. If we do not give them everything, then we also give them nothing.

JP

[Ferretlover]

HHHmmm... Shouldn't we make a decision about what the end goal is to be first?
Seems to me that would help to discern what was actually valuable to attain that goal, and what should be discarded, but filed away, so that those ideas/actions would, hopefully, not be repeated in the future.

[Ludi]

Do you mean the goal for Humanity, or, the goal for your community, or the goal for your family, or the goal for yourself?

At what level can we decide on an end goal?

And who is "we" in this context?

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'G')o down fighting- hee hee

Pre-pubescent fantasies by drooling apocolyptists who've been playing way too much Doom.

...

So go down fighting? Fighting what? You're friend who just got fired from Countrywide? Your neighbor who can't pay for his ARM? The kids who are stealing from your wood pile? or picking apples out of your trees?

There is no one to fight- only gnawing poverty and ignorance. Put away the guns and start working on solutions in your community...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', ' ')I hope you see that however dire the PO situation turns out to be, each of us will fare better if we are able to think clearly and not go into a Chicken Little tirade of doom.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ') Why wouldn't we take from the past what is valuable and pass it on? But by deciding what is "valuable" we are making a value judgement (deciding which is right or wrong). So which is it? Pass on everything? Or pass on everything which is valuable? Or is it all valuable?

[Ludi]

I agree goals are important. I have personal goals, but I don't have goals for Humanity. That would be ludicrous.

Who do you, Ferretlover, mean by "we"? That's what I'm asking.

[Ludi]

Do you think people can decide on an end goal for Humanity? If so, who would decide and how would the decision process occur? Or does each individual formulate a goal for Humanity?

[Ferretlover]

Nobody can solve a problem if they don't know what the problem is and what makes it a problem. I think it is possible to accidently solve a problem, but if the someone who does so doesn't know there was a problem in the first place, and, doesn't share their knowledge with any others, of what value is that?

Everyone who can think has personal goals at sometime in their lives. Unfortunately, there are a Great many people who do not or cannot reach those goals for many reasons: they do not have the knowledge to reach their goals, they are too lazy to attempt to reach those goals on their own, etc.

And, it is ludicrous to assume that people who think don't have goals for humanity. It would be interesting to find out what those goals are--perhaps a survey done in a local mall, or on the streets or your city, etc. "What would your goal for humanity be?" I am fairly certain that every single person could think of something! (Even beauty pageant contestants, "I'd like world peace...")
Because a person has, essentially no power over the thoughts and actions of the rest of the world does not mean they cannot have thoughts/wishes for the reality that they would like to see develop for humanity.

"Who do you, Ferretlover, mean by "we"? That's what I'm asking."

In the terms of this discussion, *I* meant 'we' as the members who were discussing this topic. Brainstorming towards possible goals for a group/population of any size is a good mental, problem-solving exercise.

And, you said:
"Trying really really hard at something that doesn't work very well, at something that's doomed from the start - civilization - doesn't make it work any better. Maybe let's try something different for a change, instead of the thing that's proven not to work"

If you feel that civilization was doomed from the start, why do you plan to work with your neighbors?

[Ludi]

When I use the word "civilization" I use it in the anthropological sense.


Civilization isn't sustainable, but human society, human culture, can be.


For more thoughts along these lines, I recommend the books of Daniel Quinn, especially "The Story of B."



I think it would be ludicrous for me to devise a goal for humanity. It might not be ludicrous for you to do so. It's just not the way I tend to think about my role on the planet, I'm not that capable of making decisions, especially for others.

[Ludi]

Try not to "read into" what I say so much, Ferretlover. We'd communicate better, if you don't understand what I'm saying, if you would ask me to clarify instead of assuming I'm saying something I'm not.


Thanks.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')o you think people can decide on an end goal for Humanity? If so, who would decide and how would the decision process occur? Or does each individual formulate a goal for Humanity?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', ' ')They will continue to use the same methods of developing villages, towns, cities, governments as they have always done until a different procedure is accepted by them or forced upon them.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')ry not to "read into" what I say so much, Ferretlover. We'd communicate better, if you don't understand what I'm saying, if you would ask me to clarify instead of assuming I'm saying something I'm not.Thanks.

[Ludi]

ok, thanks. I hope you don't mind if I try to clarify what I'm saying if I think you might have misunderstood. For instance, when I say "I" or "me" I mean my own self and not anyone else, and when I say "you" I almost always mean "you the person I'm addressing" and not "me" or "someone." And generally if I ask a question I'm actually asking a question, and not debating.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hen I use the word "civilization" I use it in the anthropological sense.
Civilization isn't sustainable, but human society, human culture, can be.
For more thoughts along these lines, I recommend the books of Daniel Quinn, especially "The Story of B."
I think it would be ludicrous for me to devise a goal for humanity. It might not be ludicrous for you to do so. It's just not the way I tend to think about my role on the planet, I'm not that capable of making decisions, especially for others.

[Ludi]

Thanks Shanny, I forgot to check at Anthropik for a good overview.