[charliebrownout]

Hi,

I fit the description, I'm new to peak oil and definitely "freaking out" a bit.

Honestly, I've had an inkling, before I was a psych major I was a geology major and I keep up with the news. So, I've seen the signs and symptoms, but I've been in a state of denial (keeping the rest of the world company, I guess).

At any rate, as fate would have it, my son decided he wanted to do a science project focused on energy production, use, etc. So, I googled away and he googled away and we visited the library.

And this is how the simple, homegrown research went:

---> ---> ----> ----> --->

Now, I can't deny it. My eyes are open and I have to act. I see the ghosttown I live in (the foreclosures, the unkempt houses left behind by people who couldn't afford them or are letting the house go because they simply can't afford them for rising energy costs and all the other problems of suburbia). I see the news of food riots, rising energy costs ($115 a BARREL???) . I see the airlines having trouble. I see our utility companies (water because we're in a desert, and energy) changing rates or sneaking in extra costs left and right (to the extent my neighbors--those left--are seeking answers from the corporation commission). I don't go into "town" and sometimes don't even attend mass because I'm watching the budget (ie the fuel is too damned expensive even with the improved fuel economy of our most recent car purchase).

So, here is my dilema:

I'm trying to convince my husband that we HAVE TO/NEED TO move into the city, within walking distance of his work, and downsize to a condo rather than expecting to continue in a 2000 sq. ft. home in the burbs'. I *want* a house but I'm at the point of seeing I *need* something else. I'm not willing to burn our future in the gas tank. And I'm starting to get really nervous about HOW we're going to get by when the oil economy tanks.

I'm digging for evidence to support my claim, but I want to reach out to others and ask what you think are the most compelling arguments? What made YOU change your mind about peak oil?

Also, can someone point me in the direction of good advice/good reading on the topic of life after oil? I'm having a hard time mitigating, in my mind, the apocalyptic/survivalist and the actual potential reality. Does anyone know of some good middle-of-the-road advice? I'm currently reading Hubbert's Peak and The Coming Economic Collapse.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to steer us into an "all walking" living arrangement within the next few months (or sooner, if I can pull it off).

[jlw61]

First, you live in a desert? What is your source of water? You'll find on this site lots of concern for the American Southwest and the cities it contains. Water and electricity make much of the southwest habitable and without both. So you first need to figure out if even your city is capable of handling peak oil.

Now that I've completely ruined your day... if you have city water and the 'burbs are emptying out, you need to concern yourself with a lot. First, the possibility of increased crime, second the possibility of what I term "The Youngstown Solution" where the city comes in and tells you "move out, we're no longer providing utilities to this suburb."

Next, what do you do? Are you and your husband wed to the area? Can you move to a more sustainable location? Can you telecommute? You are correct that you do not need to own a home. Owning a home currently provides some tax breaks, but it also costs more than renting. And if have question to the sustainability of your area, renting is what you want to do.

On the flip side, you may find that some of the empty homes are fairly cheap and you could become a landlord. Heck, perhaps you could even start a commuter service for your renters!

What was your area like before the suburbs? Was there ANY farmland around? Is there a usable aquifer underneath your house?

In my opinion you have a lot to answer yet, primarily where does the water and electricity come from that keeps the city alive. Some desert cities sit on large aquifers others get water from a river or reservoir. Where does the water comes from and what is the outlook for the city's water? This is as important as how the electricity is generated. Also, will your jobs be there when gasoline passes $6 a gallon? Do you have the ability to dig a well or build a large enough cistern for your water needs? Can you afford enough solar panels and/or wind generators (plus the batteries) to provide your house with power? Is your house paid for or is it possible to sell without much of a loss. What happens if you walk away? How much debt do you have? You need to answer these questions, at a minimum, to figure out where you stand.

And that's not the half of it <sigh>. I don't want to overload you, but where does your food come from and will you be able to get it more delivered from California, Idaho and Florida when diesel hits $6 a gallon? Can it come by rail? Is the rail electrified or do they burn diesel? Fuel, water and electricity is only the part of the puzzle. Without food, the rest is meaningless. Have you been tracking food costs? What is your city doing about the potential of peak oil (most, including mine, are doing nothing).

I live in a nice city with a good water supply and the electricity is generated by nuclear, gas and coal power. Virginia grows a lot and can grow a lot more than it does. My neighborhood was the 'burbs in 1939, but the newest suburbs are 12 miles west on top of what used to be prime farmland. Until recently there was all sorts of discussion about new development and commercial expansion into and around my neighborhood... now nobody mentions it. I can see my house being considered part of the countryside, again, in as little as 20 years. Of course that would mean that the population will be down to about 40,000 people instead of the 400,000+ it has now. No, I don't think those 360,000 people will have moved away. Yes, I'm a doomer praying that I'm wrong.

Welcome to Peak Oil and I hope I have not put you into a panic attack. TAKE IT EASY. The end is coming, but that light in the tunnel is still a ways away and you aren't yet that far into the tunnel. You have some time and if you and your hubby use it wisely and think clearly, you will do well.

BTW, don't spring this all on him at once... it took my wife over six months to accept and buy into the concept. You have the time to get your hubby tuned into the concept. Take it slow, give him bits, and let him think it through. If he's not ready to buy into the stay/move thing, and is at all like me, he'll see it as a reason why he needs that new rifle and generator. Once he's had both for a few months he'll realize the generator is a short-term fix and will be ready to stock up food and more ammunition. When THAT point comes, he's ready to consider the stay/move idea with a clear mind.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '
')Now that I've completely ruined your day...

[BigTex]

Best thing to do right now may be to take a yoga class.

The answers to all of your questions are in the archives of this forum. Just do some searching around.

PLEASE don't take any action or make any big life moves until you've allowed all of this to sink in and you've had a chance to really think it over. MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND ABOUT THINGS. ULTIMATELY, MOST OF THE DISCUSSION HERE IS SPECULATION ABOUT THE FUTURE. Don't mistake well-reasoned speculation for fact.

Also, don't try to convince anyone else that the sky is falling until you have a thorough understanding of it yourself. You are going to sound half-crazy even if you know the subject cold.

Don't let the doom overwhelm you. Doom is sort of a parlor game to a lot of people, and this is not always obvious to a rookie.

There have been a lot of people joining the site lately just like you. High oil prices are probably going to draw more and more people to the peak oil topic, and it's easy to get that "drinking out of a fire hydrant" feeling when you first scratch the surface.

But try to just cool out a bit. Fear often leads to poor decision making.

[GoghGoner]

All fossil fuels are nonrenewable and finite. We knew this from the beginning. Sadly, it is not stressed in school so most of us are ignorant. It wasn't so much somebody changed my mind, it was somebody told me about it. Have him watch this movie:

Crude Awakenings

The facts in the movie are true.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', 'm')aybe Pacific NW area

[jlw61]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', '
')Hubby JUST got a job on the edge of the populated portion of Phoenix Metro. So, I think we should:
1) Move to a condo within walking distance of his work.
2) Dump the two cars (who really NEEDS two anyway???)
3) Dump our debts--THIS YEAR.
4) Start saving, educating ourselves, and preparing to move to a more sustainable city (not sure, maybe Pacific NW area).

[threadbear]

Love the name, Charlie BrownOut. Too bad the world can't run on laughter. You'd do fine!

Forget the oil angle, if your husband is inclined to be an optimist, as he'll think that there will be a techno fix, and who knows, there might actually be, somewhere down the road. Focus on the economics of the situation, and have him read some financial sites, like Market Oracle, Mike Whitney, and a few others. Go into Google News and browse through "well respected" newspapers. Google "derivatives time bomb" and Warren Buffet, for example. Do a compare and contrast between the collapse of Russia and the collapse of the U.S., the collapse of the real estate market in Japan, and the U.S. Argentina and U.S. The parallels are all there.

He'll move to a condo so fast, it'll make your head spin!

[Mquinon3]

Saw the topic, just wanted to say hello and welcome. I am a Psychology and Sociology Major, graduating soon to move on to grad school. When I learned about what is really going around, energy, food, environment, etc... it was a bit to take in. Glad to see anohter person becoming aware of what is going on in the world and trying to do what they can. You will definately find a great deal fo the info you need or want on this site.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'B')est thing to do right now may be to take a yoga class.

The answers to all of your questions are in the archives of this forum. Just do some searching around.

PLEASE don't take any action or make any big life moves until you've allowed all of this to sink in and you've had a chance to really think it over. MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND ABOUT THINGS. ULTIMATELY, MOST OF THE DISCUSSION HERE IS SPECULATION ABOUT THE FUTURE. Don't mistake well-reasoned speculation for fact.

Also, don't try to convince anyone else that the sky is falling until you have a thorough understanding of it yourself. You are going to sound half-crazy even if you know the subject cold.

Don't let the doom overwhelm you. Doom is sort of a parlor game to a lot of people, and this is not always obvious to a rookie.

There have been a lot of people joining the site lately just like you. High oil prices are probably going to draw more and more people to the peak oil topic, and it's easy to get that "drinking out of a fire hydrant" feeling when you first scratch the surface.

But try to just cool out a bit. Fear often leads to poor decision making.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'L')ove the name, Charlie BrownOut. Too bad the world can't run on laughter. You'd do fine!

Forget the oil angle, if your husband is inclined to be an optimist, as he'll think that there will be a techno fix, and who knows, there might actually be, somewhere down the road. Focus on the economics of the situation, and have him read some financial sites, like Market Oracle, Mike Whitney, and a few others. Go into Google News and browse through "well respected" newspapers. Google "derivatives time bomb" and Warren Buffet, for example. Do a compare and contrast between the collapse of Russia and the collapse of the U.S., the collapse of the real estate market in Japan, and the U.S. Argentina and U.S. The parallels are all there.

He'll move to a condo so fast, it'll make your head spin!

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mquinon3', 'S')aw the topic, just wanted to say hello and welcome. I am a Psychology and Sociology Major, graduating soon to move on to grad school. When I learned about what is really going around, energy, food, environment, etc... it was a bit to take in. Glad to see anohter person becoming aware of what is going on in the world and trying to do what they can. You will definately find a great deal fo the info you need or want on this site.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'B')est thing to do right now may be to take a yoga class.

The answers to all of your questions are in the archives of this forum. Just do some searching around.

PLEASE don't take any action or make any big life moves until you've allowed all of this to sink in and you've had a chance to really think it over. MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND ABOUT THINGS. ULTIMATELY, MOST OF THE DISCUSSION HERE IS SPECULATION ABOUT THE FUTURE. Don't mistake well-reasoned speculation for fact.

Also, don't try to convince anyone else that the sky is falling until you have a thorough understanding of it yourself. You are going to sound half-crazy even if you know the subject cold.

Don't let the doom overwhelm you. Doom is sort of a parlor game to a lot of people, and this is not always obvious to a rookie.

There have been a lot of people joining the site lately just like you. High oil prices are probably going to draw more and more people to the peak oil topic, and it's easy to get that "drinking out of a fire hydrant" feeling when you first scratch the surface.

But try to just cool out a bit. Fear often leads to poor decision making.

[Iaato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', 'A')nd this is how the simple, homegrown research went:

---> ---> ----> ----> --->

[Gandalf_the_White]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', 'H')i,

I fit the description, I'm new to peak oil and definitely "freaking out" a bit.

Honestly, I've had an inkling, before I was a psych major I was a geology major and I keep up with the news. So, I've seen the signs and symptoms, but I've been in a state of denial (keeping the rest of the world company, I guess).

At any rate, as fate would have it, my son decided he wanted to do a science project focused on energy production, use, etc. So, I googled away and he googled away and we visited the library.

And this is how the simple, homegrown research went:

---> ---> ----> ----> --->

Now, I can't deny it. My eyes are open and I have to act. I see the ghosttown I live in (the foreclosures, the unkempt houses left behind by people who couldn't afford them or are letting the house go because they simply can't afford them for rising energy costs and all the other problems of suburbia). I see the news of food riots, rising energy costs ($115 a BARREL???) . I see the airlines having trouble. I see our utility companies (water because we're in a desert, and energy) changing rates or sneaking in extra costs left and right (to the extent my neighbors--those left--are seeking answers from the corporation commission). I don't go into "town" and sometimes don't even attend mass because I'm watching the budget (ie the fuel is too damned expensive even with the improved fuel economy of our most recent car purchase).

So, here is my dilema:

I'm trying to convince my husband that we HAVE TO/NEED TO move into the city, within walking distance of his work, and downsize to a condo rather than expecting to continue in a 2000 sq. ft. home in the burbs'. I *want* a house but I'm at the point of seeing I *need* something else. I'm not willing to burn our future in the gas tank. And I'm starting to get really nervous about HOW we're going to get by when the oil economy tanks.

I'm digging for evidence to support my claim, but I want to reach out to others and ask what you think are the most compelling arguments? What made YOU change your mind about peak oil?

Also, can someone point me in the direction of good advice/good reading on the topic of life after oil? I'm having a hard time mitigating, in my mind, the apocalyptic/survivalist and the actual potential reality. Does anyone know of some good middle-of-the-road advice? I'm currently reading Hubbert's Peak and The Coming Economic Collapse.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to steer us into an "all walking" living arrangement within the next few months (or sooner, if I can pull it off).

[Cashmere]

You live in Arizona and your hubby is not PO aware.

I quote Scooby Doo:

You're Rucked.


Seriously, your hubby is your largest problem, not the rest.

Until he's on board, you are limited with what you can do.

I'm not sure moving further toward the soon-to be dying of thirst and heat downtown area is the solution, but I do agree with the downsizing.

My 2 cents -

I'd rather be further away from than closer to heavily populated areas.

[thylacine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', 'A')lso, can someone point me in the direction of good advice/good reading on the topic of life after oil? I'm having a hard time mitigating, in my mind, the apocalyptic/survivalist and the actual potential reality. Does anyone know of some good middle-of-the-road advice?

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thylacine', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', 'A')lso, can someone point me in the direction of good advice/good reading on the topic of life after oil? I'm having a hard time mitigating, in my mind, the apocalyptic/survivalist and the actual potential reality. Does anyone know of some good middle-of-the-road advice?

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'Y')ou live in Arizona and your hubby is not PO aware.

I quote Scooby Doo:

You're Rucked.


Seriously, your hubby is your largest problem, not the rest.

Until he's on board, you are limited with what you can do.

I'm not sure moving further toward the soon-to be dying of thirst and heat downtown area is the solution, but I do agree with the downsizing.

My 2 cents -

I'd rather be further away from than closer to heavily populated areas.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thylacine', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', 'A')lso, can someone point me in the direction of good advice/good reading on the topic of life after oil? I'm having a hard time mitigating, in my mind, the apocalyptic/survivalist and the actual potential reality. Does anyone know of some good middle-of-the-road advice?