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Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

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Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 11 Sep 2005, 02:04:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..we find that extreme conservatism in retaining what has once been successfully tried is a vital property of the apparatus performing, in cultural evolution, a task analogous to that of the genes in species variation. Retention is not only equally important; indeed, it is even more important than additional acquisition; and we must realize that without very special investigation we cannot know which customs and usage, transmitted to us by the tradition of our culture, are dispensable, obsolete superstition and which are indispensable cultural heritage. Even in the case of behavioral norms whose bad effects are apparent, such as head-hunting in several tribes of Borneo and New Guinea, we cannot foresee what repercussions their eradication will have on the system of social-behavior norms holding the particular cultural group together. In a measure, a system of this kind represents the skeleton of the culture concerned, and, without insight into the multiplicity of its interactions, it is extremely risky to remove arbitrarily one of its elements.
He speaks in this chapter of his book, Civilized Man's Eight Deadly Sins about how fish in captivity loose the behavior of caring for their offspring. What an eerie note. As a teacher I see firsthand the ravages of cultural depletion.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 20:31:43

More from the Nobel Prize winning Ethologist:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he erroneous belief that only the rationally comprehensible or the scietifically provable belong to the fixed knowledge of mankind produces disastrous effects. It encourages "scientifically enlightened" youth to throw overboard the enormous fund of knowledge and wisdom contained in the traditions of every old civilization and in the teaching of the great world religions. Anyone who believes that all this is null and void is harboring another illusion, just as dangerous, namely, that science can create, from nothing and by reason alone, a whole culture with everything pertaining to it.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby whiteknight » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 20:47:47

Wow, I want some of what Konrad's smokin'. That dude is lit. I've been way gone before but never used so many words to say something so incomprehensible...
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 20:51:34

A good example is sacred cows in India, these wander over the cities and you are not allowed to obstruct them.

However, if you look back in the mists of time you could imaging tribes with cows who are hit by a famine.

Tribe A kills it's cows in order to eat, then low and behold it has no cows for milk in the future

Tribe B does not kill it's cows but struggles the best it can through the famine.

So then the good times return and Tribe A has no cows, Tribe B does. Moral of the story, don't kill your cows in a famine.

However over time this becomes don't kill cows full stop.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby trespam » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 21:01:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'W')ow, I want some of what Konrad's smokin'. That dude is lit. I've been way gone before but never used so many words to say something so incomprehensible...


Agreed. You'd need mega cups of coffee to sit through too much of that. I think he's saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" because one must always consider "what's the price you pay." Then I suppose it's just a matter of defining "broke." He says that maybe head hunting isn't broken. I suspect you'd say it was if it was your head which was the object of that hunting.

That game with the marbles and sticks pushed through holes in a conical tower comes to mind in his thickly written message. Which stick pulled out will make the marbles fall?
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby Schweinshaxe » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 21:16:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'W')ow, I want some of what Konrad's smokin'. That dude is lit. I've been way gone before but never used so many words to say something so incomprehensible...


You haven't read my master's thesis. I was high on coffee when I wrote it and I still don't have a clue what it's about.
Was soll das?
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 00:21:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'W')ow, I want some of what Konrad's smokin'. That dude is lit. I've been way gone before but never used so many words to say something so incomprehensible...
Well bust my buttons, I know what the hell he's sayin'! :P
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 00:41:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..we find that extreme conservatism in retaining what has once been successfully tried is a vital property of the apparatus performing, in cultural evolution, a task analogous to that of the genes in species variation.

Genetic selection in nature keeps the good stuff and gets rid of the bad stuff. Its about the same with human culture and the conservative attitude is what does it. Genes are to nature what conservatism is to culture.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')etention is not only equally important; indeed, it is even more important than additional acquisition; and we must realize that without very special investigation we cannot know which customs and usage, transmitted to us by the tradition of our culture, are dispensable, obsolete superstition and which are indispensable cultural heritage.
Its more important for society to hold on to the stuff that works than it is to try out new stuff otherwise you might see something like a generation or two having lower and lower intellectual development, for one thing, which of course is exactly what we have been seeing (even here in this forum where people are too rigid to peruse with understanding anything that isn't spoon-fed to them in a simplistic style.)$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Even in the case of behavioral norms whose bad effects are apparent, such as head-hunting in several tribes of Borneo and New Guinea, we cannot foresee what repercussions their eradication will have on the system of social-behavior norms holding the particular cultural group together.
You take away the foundations of a culture and what you get are a lot of unhappy people, even unhappy headhunters! $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n a measure, a system of this kind represents the skeleton of the culture concerned, and, without insight into the multiplicity of its interactions, it is extremely risky to remove arbitrarily one of its elements.
Don't fix what isn't broken as our poster put it.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby trespam » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 00:44:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'W')ow, I want some of what Konrad's smokin'. That dude is lit. I've been way gone before but never used so many words to say something so incomprehensible...
Well bust my buttons, I know what the hell he's sayin'! :P


True. But he's got the style of all those post-modernists in want of a good editor. Though Henry James could have used a little pruning here and there.

And a good deal of the german philosophers (Kant, Hegel, etc) could have used a good editor as well. I don't have the anecdote exact here, but one fo the individuals responsible for editing and/or reviewing Kant's writings refused for fear he would go mad.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 00:49:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', '
')
True. But he's got the style of all those post-modernists in want of a good editor. Though Henry James could have used a little pruning here and there.

And a good deal of the german philosophers (Kant, Hegel, etc) could have used a good editor as well. I don't have the anecdote exact here, but one fo the individuals responsible for editing and/or reviewing Kant's writings refused for fear he would go mad.
Maybe its Marjorie Wilson's fault. She translated it from German.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby cheRand » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 02:41:25

I think Lorenz was saying that a scientific-rational worldview is not the only valid worldview... ithere are other metaphors or framworks which hold truths. He's arguing for cultural diversity.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:09:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cheRand', 'I') think Lorenz was saying that a scientific-rational worldview is not the only valid worldview... ithere are other metaphors or framworks which hold truths. He's arguing for cultural diversity.
I can agree with that. Cultures are given from the past to many different peoples from long dead generations. Discarding the influence of the dead is bad karma. Taking it away from others is a crime of ignorance.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby cheRand » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:15:06

Yep. And he's saying what they say in systems dynamics: Don't try to tinker with more than one interdependent variable at a time.
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Re: Konrad Lorenz on Conservatism

Unread postby Hegel » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:34:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd a good deal of the german philosophers (Kant, Hegel, etc) could have used a good editor as well.


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