[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')In a nutshell, Marxism simply advocates a collective society living according to its needs.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '(')i.e., tax Hollywood into oblivion,

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')In a nutshell, Marxism simply advocates a collective society living according to its needs.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '.')..
You mean, this one, I repeat, just one time that we've reached a state of technotopia is the result of income disparity.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')ou don't think "give support- get support"(what Daniel Quinn calls the tribal model) works?

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '
')Absent some other overriding indoctrinational force, humans understand that their self-interest coincides with the well-being of their family or tribe. That doesn’t require indoctrination - just show the kid who his/her family and tribe are, and the extension of self happens. Like a duckling imprinting on its mother, or migrating birds organizing themselves into wedges. The tribe is our natural unit of social organization, the one we evolved with over millions of years, and the one you will find everywhere that stratification of civilization has not yet occurred. And a human will defend his or her family or tribe fiercely, as if he were defending his own body - and will even die in its defense, seeing the tribe as the more complete definition of self. It doesn’t require particular prodding to get a human to behave this way. It’s the way we’re built.

[Cid_Yama]

Americans are generally brought up to believe there are only two ways to organize a society; Capitalism or Communism (Socialism being a form of watered-down Communism).

In fact, there have been many different organizing principles throughout history, some that would appear quite foreign.

Take for example, Sparta:
link

or Pluralism and Anarchism
link

Whatever the future may bring, it will probably not fall under the systems of either Capitalism or Communism.

[Byron100]

Cube wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are twisting my words around. I never said income disparity "resulted" in advanced technology. What I meant was income disparity is a necessary component (one of many of course) but still my piont still stands:
you cannot have advanced technology without income disparity.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'C')ube wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are twisting my words around. I never said income disparity "resulted" in advanced technology. What I meant was income disparity is a necessary component (one of many of course) but still my piont still stands:
you cannot have advanced technology without income disparity.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')I've just never been able to understand this concept of "celebrity worship"...it's just beyond me. And I've been to Hollywood, known people there, experienced it on a number of visits there. If you were to ask me, it's not a pretty picture of the human condition - not in the least. Hollywood and its insidious cultural influence just sucks IMO...just how I feel.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlexdeLarge', '
')I'd rather have anarchy than live under the boot of a communist.

[Ludi]

Byron, you know I don't really want you to be out of work, and I trust (hope) you don't really want me to be out of work, in spite of your hatred for my livelihood.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'C')ube wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]you cannot have advanced technology without income disparity.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'C')ube wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]you cannot have advanced technology without income disparity.

[Quinny]

Thanks americandream for suggesting alternatives that don't rely on Capitalism to move us forward.

I agree that wealth is created by labour, but labour requires resources to create wealth.

My concern is that the Earth has been raped of it's resources so the workers will be unable to create wealth.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Robert A. Heinlein', 'O')f course, the Marxian definition of value is ridiculous. All the work one cares to add willl not turn a mud pie into an apple tart; it remains a mud pie, value zero. By corollary, unskillful work can easily subtract value; an untalented cook can turn wholesome dough and fresh green apples, valuable already, into an inedible mess, value zero. Conversely, a great chef can fashion of those same materials a confection of greater value than a commonplace apple tart, with no more effort than an ordinary cook uses to prepare an ordinary sweet. These kitchen illustrations demolish the Marxian theory of value - the fallacy from which the entire magnificent fraud of communism derives - and to illustrate the truth of the common-sense defintion as measured in terms of use.

[Quinny]

Exactly the point, but ....

the basic principle that labour creates value still holds.

Can you give an example where value is created without labour?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Robert A. Heinlein', 'O')f course, the Marxian definition of value is ridiculous. All the work one cares to add willl not turn a mud pie into an apple tart; it remains a mud pie, value zero. By corollary, unskillful work can easily subtract value; an untalented cook can turn wholesome dough and fresh green apples, valuable already, into an inedible mess, value zero. Conversely, a great chef can fashion of those same materials a confection of greater value than a commonplace apple tart, with no more effort than an ordinary cook uses to prepare an ordinary sweet. These kitchen illustrations demolish the Marxian theory of value - the fallacy from which the entire magnificent fraud of communism derives - and to illustrate the truth of the common-sense defintion as measured in terms of use.

[Snowrunner]

I find it funny that for most people it seems to be either Communism or Capitalism, with Socalism sneered at by the Capitalistic folks as "the road to hell."

It baffles me a bit really, if you look at the "Baby Boomers" and their prosperity, their accomplishments etc. They were all done in something (even in the US) that essentially was Socialism, it allowed society as a whole to prosper.

Personally I do think we leap the highest when challenged, but it only works if we have a stable surface to launch ourselves from.

Capitalism doesn't provide that, it essentially doesn't want the different parts of society to hold together, based on the idea that the "cream will rise to the top" and anybody could do it.

Communism in contrast is like a block of concrete that that prevents everybody from moving anywhere (okay, a very very thing block of concrete, but still).

Neither of these systems seems to have been able to stand the test of time (yes yes, Capitalists, the current problem is TOO MUCH regulation, not too little) and yet, there are still people on both sides of the aisle who do not tire to claim that they hold the only truth.

Religion is at times more flexible in their thinking.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')I've just never been able to understand this concept of "celebrity worship"...it's just beyond me. And I've been to Hollywood, known people there, experienced it on a number of visits there. If you were to ask me, it's not a pretty picture of the human condition - not in the least. Hollywood and its insidious cultural influence just sucks IMO...just how I feel.