[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')he use of courts martial rather than impeachment is an interesting idea. Anyone here have enough knowledge of the UCMJ to know if it applies to the C-in-C, and how it would be used?

[Fishman]

Won't happen
1) In 2003 the war was started on lies and criminal conduct of perjury
Democrats went along, gave as many speaches as Bush, saw the same data, Hilleary even said on NPR "we had the same data"
2) Malicious intent to harm US citizens
What? Went in to protect per all the data available (incorrect data however)
3) Crime against humanity in the slaughter of Iraqi civilians
What? Hell they kill each other at a logrithmic level higher than we have ever killed any Iragis. Does that mean the UN should go in to stop the "genocide of the sunnis" now?

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')on't happen

[Fergus]

Yesterday I was surfing and ran across a few pages on VP Cheney and treasury sec Paulson being arrested and indicted in Germany on money laundering charges of all things. Something to do with 4.5 trillion dollars being misappropriated or not paid. I tried to find out what it was all about, but got more confused the more I dug. I searched for any main stream media that picked up on it and found nothing, so I dunno. But Paulson was arrested in Germany and a subpenea was issued for Cheney, according to these links.

I thought it was a joke at first, and when I could not find anything even remotely main stream that carried it, I really thought it was a hoax or something. Still not sure. Nothing about this anywhere in America???

Anyone else read about this?

[Kingcoal]

Impeachment is the process of removing a public official through the use of legal means; which means to bring charges against. Therefore the process would be to bring charges of high treason or high crimes and misdemeanors. Clinton was accused of the second.

High treason is the action of participating in a war against one's country. That can include attempting to overthrow the government, willfully aiding and abetting terrorists or actually making war against the country. I don't think that you could charge Bush with that unless you could clearly prove that the 9/11 attacks were instigated by his administration.

[Micki]

"Yesterday I was surfing and ran across a few pages on VP Cheney and treasury sec Paulson being arrested and indicted in Germany on money laundering charges of all things. Something to do with 4.5 trillion dollars being misappropriated or not paid. I tried to find out what it was all about, but got more confused the more I dug. I searched for any main stream media that picked up on it and found nothing, so I dunno. But Paulson was arrested in Germany and a subpenea was issued for Cheney, according to these links. "

he This refers to the "Wanta plan". Apparenty some money that was set aside during Reagan days and meant to be used for paying off national debts etc. According to the story several countries have some claims on this money and therefore the bad feelings and possible court cases etc. Furthermore the story goes that the money ended up with the organized criminals at Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan etc and has since then via Bank Warochia (or something) spread out to a large number of other banks to make retrieval difficult.
The person who needs to authorise repayment is the treasury secretary Paulson, who prefers to protect his criminal buddies.


Anyway, the story is so colourful that it is easy to dismiss, but so well written that it is hard to completely dismiss.

Those who wish to read more should check out rense.com and worldreports.org/news

[shakespear1]

Perhaps this new Court House could be used for the process


New Guantanamo court to have restaurants
Gitmo Super Pork-barrel project

All this for 80 that may go on trial. That's $1.6 million per prisoner. INCREDIBLE !!!!!!

[gg3]

If Bush were running a corporation that way he would be charged by the SEC with malfeasance and face shareholder lawsuits.

Dereliction of duty seems relevant here: failure to provide sufficient armor and so on, which led directly to a whole bunch of casualties.

I've said it before but one of the things that outrages me most about this administration is the harm it has done to our military and intel agencies. When you have people in the Joint Chiefs talking about "the risk of breaking the active component," that understated language is basically like pulling the fire alarm. And those a--holes in the White House didn't listen. Not then, and not now. I'm so disgusted I could spit nails.

[Fergus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '"')Yesterday I was surfing and ran across a few pages on VP Cheney and treasury sec Paulson being arrested and indicted in Germany on money laundering charges of all things. Something to do with 4.5 trillion dollars being misappropriated or not paid. I tried to find out what it was all about, but got more confused the more I dug. I searched for any main stream media that picked up on it and found nothing, so I dunno. But Paulson was arrested in Germany and a subpenea was issued for Cheney, according to these links. "

he This refers to the "Wanta plan". Apparenty some money that was set aside during Reagan days and meant to be used for paying off national debts etc. According to the story several countries have some claims on this money and therefore the bad feelings and possible court cases etc. Furthermore the story goes that the money ended up with the organized criminals at Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan etc and has since then via Bank Warochia (or something) spread out to a large number of other banks to make retrieval difficult.
The person who needs to authorise repayment is the treasury secretary Paulson, who prefers to protect his criminal buddies.


Anyway, the story is so colourful that it is easy to dismiss, but so well written that it is hard to completely dismiss.

Those who wish to read more should check out rense.com and worldreports.org/news

[shakespear1]

I get the sense that something is out of control and that deep inside the beltway there is a serious struggle going on.

There is simple too many intelligent people around who must realize that the present direction GWB is going is a catastrophe for the whole country ( as a minimum). Irrespective of political bent.

[Fishman]

Strange about that "serious struggle going on", the Democrats, elected on the premise of change, have not offered up any unified alternative.
I think your "sense" is a bit biased.

[Micki]

Any truth to the "Wanta Plan" story?
Too early to say given that the news stories aren't corroborated (did I get that word right? Its 2AM and I'm feeling a bit light headed after returning from holidays.) by any other sources besides those who get it straight from worldreports.

As much as I think it is written in a convincing way, I believe at least other non-US controlled media like Al Jazeera would be jumping on this if there was something concrete to it.
i.e. a court conviction should for instance result in some for of record that could be published.

But I'll keep following for the entertainment value (it reads like a thriller) and for any potential future information that may make me set my opinion.

[oowolf]

"Government" is already irrelevent. DC is a hopeless madhouse. Climate chaos will soon render the human experiment in "civilization" irrelevent. "Caligula" Bush continues to fiddle while it all goes down in flames.

http://www.rense.com/general74/mut.htm

[neocone]

Again in light of the reckless decision by Bush to send 20k+ soldiers in the line of fire, in bed with the iraqi arm... oops Shia milicia (wait until the frags start flying at 3AM in those police station type little bases scattered around Bagdhad!!!), wouldn't it make sense for the best and brightest lawyers in this country to see what charges could be brought against a commander in chief who is now failing the most basic requirements of his command?

I say dereliction of duty as his irrational stuborness would be fitting for Adolph Hitler bent on conquering Stalingrad by the blood of every soldier of his 6th army.... but not within the framework of a democratic republic where EVERYONE is now saying: Enough is enough!!!!

I mean the guy doesn't even know what Soccer is, never reads the newspapers by his own admission, has a disdain for decency in the most basic framework of world diplomacy, and he is in charge of 20,000 nukes.

The fact he publicly spoke about believing in the Apocalypse is basis for his removal as commander in chief on mental stability alone.

I mean I would see Ghaddafi more responsible at the helm of the Pentagon right now than this lunatic who believe in the later days.

His next checkup at Bethesda should be enough to have him locked in a psychiatric evaluation. And have a general in charge of the Pentagon per interim.

[rdberg1957]

Whilst many may consider particular religioius beliefs to be illogical, it is unlikely that any court would consider anyone unfit on the basis of those beliefs because of our strong tradition regarding freedom of religion. The only remedies for an errant President of the United States are removal by election, term limits, and impeachment by the House of Representatives and removal by the Senate after a trial.

[neocone]

A precedent was set in Nuremberg where following orders is no excuse for genocide, and the perpetrators of Death camps were sent to hang even though they claimed just that, following orders.

If soldiers trained to send nuclear missiles on Iran refuse to do so, they have the right and it is not to be considered dereliction of duty. This is because nuclear weapons are by definition genocidal means.

If one extrapolates the logic here, it would mean that if Bush ever dares to order a nuclear strike on Iran, he would be liable of genocide, or attempted genocide, and in light of some soldiers refusing to execute the rightfully unjust orders, his orders would constitute high treason against the country, by the very logic they are not valid and intent on commiting a crime against humanity.

One could argue nuclear weapons can be used in the narrow necessity when a nuclear armed opponent sends his nuclear attack, but not against a nuclear free and defenseless country. The later case constitutes genocide without the shadow of a doubt.

I say legal scholars get quickly on the case.

[eXpat]

President Bush may have ordered torture of terror suspects , link. Impeachment of court martial, i hope he get it soon, i don't think it will ever happen though

[snax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')he use of courts martial rather than impeachment is an interesting idea. Anyone here have enough knowledge of the UCMJ to know if it applies to the C-in-C, and how it would be used?

[gg3]

Thanks, Snax.

Looks like that closes this topic.

On to the Impeachment topic.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eXpat', 'P')resident Bush may have ordered torture of terror suspects , link. Impeachment of court martial, i hope he get it soon, i don't think it will ever happen though