HawkMan disapproves of this "rendering pain" activity.
Pain is without merit.
Only the quick & decisive rendering of enemies into food or nest material matters.
Mere torture is for lesser beasts.
Be the Hawk.
PeakOil is You
THE Torture Thread (merged)
Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by Aaron » Sat 02 May 2009, 14:23:48
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by TreeFarmer » Sat 02 May 2009, 14:58:30
I'll throw an opposite spin on those numbers just becasue I can. 
The Christians believe that you are responsible for what you do and you sometimes get the consequences of what you do. If you are a terrorist and have some information well, start talking or we'll help you to talk.
The other side believes that personal responsibility for your actions is temporary at best. You really shouldn't hold anyone really and truly accountable for what they have done or what they are and if they know something important but don't want to talk well that's ok.
TF
The Christians believe that you are responsible for what you do and you sometimes get the consequences of what you do. If you are a terrorist and have some information well, start talking or we'll help you to talk.
The other side believes that personal responsibility for your actions is temporary at best. You really shouldn't hold anyone really and truly accountable for what they have done or what they are and if they know something important but don't want to talk well that's ok.
TF
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by jasonraymondson » Sat 02 May 2009, 15:11:04
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'I')'ll throw an opposite spin on those numbers just becasue I can.
The Christians believe that you are responsible for what you do and you sometimes get the consequences of what you do. If you are a terrorist and have some information well, start talking or we'll help you to talk.
The other side believes that personal responsibility for your actions is temporary at best. You really shouldn't hold anyone really and truly accountable for what they have done or what they are and if they know something important but don't want to talk well that's ok.
TF
The Christians believe that you are responsible for what you do and you sometimes get the consequences of what you do. If you are a terrorist and have some information well, start talking or we'll help you to talk.
The other side believes that personal responsibility for your actions is temporary at best. You really shouldn't hold anyone really and truly accountable for what they have done or what they are and if they know something important but don't want to talk well that's ok.
TF
Here is the deal, I don't like torture, nor do many of you.
but here you go
Your daughter has been kidnapped by a rapist / serial killer and you have his accomplice. His accomplice won't talk unless you cut off his fingers. Do you cut of his fingers? Now please remember, you daughter will be raped and murdered if you don't. This is your one and only shot of saving her. What do you do?
Do you have the courage to answer this question?
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by smallpoxgirl » Sat 02 May 2009, 16:14:49
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'Y')our daughter has been kidnapped by a rapist / serial killer and you have his accomplice. His accomplice won't talk unless you cut off his fingers. Do you cut of his fingers? Now please remember, you daughter will be raped and murdered if you don't. This is your one and only shot of saving her. What do you do?
I think the first thing you do is stop trying to reduce international politics to such cartoonish moral dichotomies. The truth of the matter is that the US is a target of "terrorism" primarily because MANY people in the world see it behaving very brutally and in bad faith in international politics. The truth is that those opinions are not without merit. If you really want to address "terrorism" you need to look at what motivates "terrorist" and be really honest about trying to address the issues that are motivating them. The truth is that US foreign policy is driven minimally by a desire for domestic safety. Predominantly it is driven by the economic exigencies of our business concerns, and yeah people are gonna get pissed off if they keep seeing their family members get blown up to protect the profits of Halliburton. Cutting off their uncles fingers trying to get him to talk is not going to make them less motivated.
I put that term "terrorist" in quotes, because I think it's entirely a garbage bag term. It basically translates as "someone who opposes US foreign policy". If torturing captives trying to get information, in clear violation of international law, doesn't make you a "terrorist", then the term is completely without meaning.
If the US was actually acting to defend itself, then the moral issues would be far more blurred and yes torture might be ethically justifiable. The truth is that self defense is WAY down on our priority list.
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Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by threadbear » Sat 02 May 2009, 16:41:43
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', '
')
Here is the deal, I don't like torture, nor do many of you.
but here you go
Your daughter has been kidnapped by a rapist / serial killer and you have his accomplice. His accomplice won't talk unless you cut off his fingers. Do you cut of his fingers? Now please remember, you daughter will be raped and murdered if you don't. This is your one and only shot of saving her. What do you do?
Do you have the courage to answer this question?
')
Here is the deal, I don't like torture, nor do many of you.
but here you go
Your daughter has been kidnapped by a rapist / serial killer and you have his accomplice. His accomplice won't talk unless you cut off his fingers. Do you cut of his fingers? Now please remember, you daughter will be raped and murdered if you don't. This is your one and only shot of saving her. What do you do?
Do you have the courage to answer this question?
The torture problem begins when situations are framed in this way. You're engaging in a kind of fundamentalism, yourself, by defining a hypothetical worst case, that never occurs in real life. This is exactly what fundy Protestants do and why they are more apt to support torture. It jives with their black and white view of the world, where people are with them or against them, with Jesus or accomplices of Satan.
They are defending against a situation that never occurs, but that has dire implications for all the completely innocent people picked up on hearsay. Jason, how would you like it if one of your friends was picked up and tortured into implicating all of his friends, just to make the torture stop? If you were then picked up and torutured into implicating all of your friends and family, would you feel fair using your moral dilemma example?
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by TreeFarmer » Sat 02 May 2009, 17:39:14
He might as well change his name to Frodo because he's already down to nine...
Is that enough courage for you?
TF
Is that enough courage for you?
TF
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by jasonraymondson » Sat 02 May 2009, 18:07:22
Unfortunatly none of you got my point and decided that attacking me and lumping me in with the government is a sure fire fix to my question.
If you can't understand the difference between my statement / question and those used by the ones advocating torture, then trying to explain myself is pointless and a bloody waste of my time.
If you can't understand the difference between my statement / question and those used by the ones advocating torture, then trying to explain myself is pointless and a bloody waste of my time.
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Re: Church Goers More Likely To Support Torture
by americandream » Sat 02 May 2009, 19:11:47
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TreeFarmer', 'I')'ll throw an opposite spin on those numbers just becasue I can.
The Christians believe that you are responsible for what you do and you sometimes get the consequences of what you do. If you are a terrorist and have some information well, start talking or we'll help you to talk.
The other side believes that personal responsibility for your actions is temporary at best. You really shouldn't hold anyone really and truly accountable for what they have done or what they are and if they know something important but don't want to talk well that's ok.
TF
The Christians believe that you are responsible for what you do and you sometimes get the consequences of what you do. If you are a terrorist and have some information well, start talking or we'll help you to talk.
The other side believes that personal responsibility for your actions is temporary at best. You really shouldn't hold anyone really and truly accountable for what they have done or what they are and if they know something important but don't want to talk well that's ok.
TF
Here is the deal, I don't like torture, nor do many of you.
but here you go
Your daughter has been kidnapped by a rapist / serial killer and you have his accomplice. His accomplice won't talk unless you cut off his fingers. Do you cut of his fingers? Now please remember, you daughter will be raped and murdered if you don't. This is your one and only shot of saving her. What do you do?
Do you have the courage to answer this question?
Hold on a moment. lets not forget the implicit context of this survey. Torture by Wall Street and its goverment in out of the way Third World countries blessed with the resources they want but cursed with recalcitrant leaders. The same Wall Street that is now digging into your pockets. The same Wall Street that is in cahoots with the leadership of these WASP churches that invariably prey on the poor and fearful.
The survey is not so much about conscience, but rather the effectiveness of the unseen hand of class war. Natural justice never really figures in these paradigms...its invariably a sop for the politically naive who aren't able to put two and two together.
Now ask me about torturing the fat cat who wants to invade these defenceless lands and enslave their peoples and I would give a resounding yes. However, I would equally resoundingly say no to being party to these scam to rip these poor sods off, both in the churches and on the ground in the Third World.
But as I said, surveying the poor sheep feeding off the lies these organisations put out masks the reality of the propaganda machine whirring away in the background.
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