[Mettezz]

This is a Quote from Matt Savinar

Thermal Depolymerization:



Thermal depolymerization is an intriguing solution to our landfill problems, but since most of the feedstock (such as tires and turkey guts) requires high-grade oil to make in the first place, it is more "high-tech recycling" than it is a solution to a permanent oil shortage.



While the following analogy is certainly a bit disgusting, it should clearly illustrate why thermal depolymerization won't do much to soften the coming collapse:



Expecting thermal depolymerization to help solve our long term

energy problems makes as much sense as expecting the

consumption of our own feces to help solve a long-term famine. In

both cases, the energy starved party is simply recycling a small

portion of the energy they had previously consumed.



On a less grotesque note, the technology is besieged by several fundamental shortcomings that those desperately hoping for a techno-messiah tend to overlook:



First, there is the problem of production costs. According to a recent article in Fortune Magazine, a barrel of oil produced via the thermal depolymerization process costs $80 to produce as of January 2005. To put that figure in perspective, consider the fact that oil pulled out of the ground in Saudi Arabia costs less than $2.50 per barrel, while oil pulled out of the ground in Iraq costs only $1.00 per barrel.



This means that with spot oil prices in the $50/barrel range, a barrel of oil produced via thermal depolymerization in January 2005 would have to sell for between $1,600-$4,000 per barrel to have a return on investment comparable to oil produced from Saudi Arabia or Iraq.



Oil prices of $1,600-$4,000 per barrel would put gas prices at roughly $80-$200 per gallon.



If the technology was the miracle many people are desperately hoping for, the company would likely not have needed a grant from the Department of Energy to keep its head above water. Nor would it have been the subject of an April 2005 Kansas City Star article appropriately entitled, "Innovative Turkey-to-Oil Plant Eats Money, Spits Out Fowl Odor."



Sky-high production costs and horrific odor problems aside, a look at the history of thermal depolymerization tends to show it will never amount to more than a tiny drop in the giant barrel that is our oil appetite.The technology was first developed for commercial use in 1996. Here we are, ten years later and there is only one thermal depolymerization plant online and it is producing less than 500 barrels of oil per day, despite record high oil prices. Even if oil production from thermal depolymerization is upscaled by a factor of 1,000, and the cost of production brought down by a factor of 10, it will still only be producing 500,000 barrels of oil per day. While that may make a tremendous amount of money for the company, it won't make much difference in our overall situation as the global need for oil is projected to reach 120,000,000 barrels per day by 2020.



If thermal depolymerization sounded "too good to be true" when you first heard about it, now you know why.



www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net if your interested the Matt Savinar tells the truth and all his arguments are based on facts ^^

[Mettezz]

Once again i quote Matt Savinar

Thermal Depolymerization:



Thermal depolymerization is an intriguing solution to our landfill problems, but since most of the feedstock (such as tires and turkey guts) requires high-grade oil to make in the first place, it is more "high-tech recycling" than it is a solution to a permanent oil shortage.



While the following analogy is certainly a bit disgusting, it should clearly illustrate why thermal depolymerization won't do much to soften the coming collapse:



Expecting thermal depolymerization to help solve our long term

energy problems makes as much sense as expecting the

consumption of our own feces to help solve a long-term famine. In

both cases, the energy starved party is simply recycling a small

portion of the energy they had previously consumed.



On a less grotesque note, the technology is besieged by several fundamental shortcomings that those desperately hoping for a techno-messiah tend to overlook:



First, there is the problem of production costs. According to a recent article in Fortune Magazine, a barrel of oil produced via the thermal depolymerization process costs $80 to produce as of January 2005. To put that figure in perspective, consider the fact that oil pulled out of the ground in Saudi Arabia costs less than $2.50 per barrel, while oil pulled out of the ground in Iraq costs only $1.00 per barrel.



This means that with spot oil prices in the $50/barrel range, a barrel of oil produced via thermal depolymerization in January 2005 would have to sell for between $1,600-$4,000 per barrel to have a return on investment comparable to oil produced from Saudi Arabia or Iraq.



Oil prices of $1,600-$4,000 per barrel would put gas prices at roughly $80-$200 per gallon.



If the technology was the miracle many people are desperately hoping for, the company would likely not have needed a grant from the Department of Energy to keep its head above water. Nor would it have been the subject of an April 2005 Kansas City Star article appropriately entitled, "Innovative Turkey-to-Oil Plant Eats Money, Spits Out Fowl Odor."



Sky-high production costs and horrific odor problems aside, a look at the history of thermal depolymerization tends to show it will never amount to more than a tiny drop in the giant barrel that is our oil appetite.The technology was first developed for commercial use in 1996. Here we are, ten years later and there is only one thermal depolymerization plant online and it is producing less than 500 barrels of oil per day, despite record high oil prices. Even if oil production from thermal depolymerization is upscaled by a factor of 1,000, and the cost of production brought down by a factor of 10, it will still only be producing 500,000 barrels of oil per day. While that may make a tremendous amount of money for the company, it won't make much difference in our overall situation as the global need for oil is projected to reach 120,000,000 barrels per day by 2020.



If thermal depolymerization sounded "too good to be true" when you first heard about it, now you know why.

[BrazilianPO]

Can anyone say "Soylent Green"?

It will not work. Too much energy intensive. Better than make oil out of rocks, but still pretty bad.

[lawnchair]

Because of the low EROEI, The only way TDP can be viewed is as a replacement feedstock for turning another, non-liquid, energy source into liquid hydrocarbons. I.e., turning solar, wind and nuclear electricity into synthetic diesel fuel... which is basically the only thing in history that has the energy density and stability to power an airplane. That I can believe. For land-based purposes, though, it's doing nothing more than acting as a battery that also emits CO2 in its consumption. Hydrogen (again, functionally a battery) makes more sense.

[charliehelyes]

i feel you are incorrect, the dinosaurs had no oil based products to help them grow and yet they produced billions of barrels of oil, so if thermal depolymerization speeds up the process millions of times why cant turkeys do they same thing. It ironic turkeys the desendants of dinosaurs are going to give us oil again.

[charliehelyes]

the significance of this is huge it means oil will never run out if we can make it even if it is small quantities. There could be a huge class of farm workers growing carbon intensive crops used to make a small amount of oil for the rich elite.

[joewp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliehelyes', 't')he significance of this is huge it means oil will never run out if we can make it even if it is small quantities. There could be a huge class of farm workers growing carbon intensive crops used to make a small amount of oil for the rich elite.

[charliehelyes]

better then being cavemen

[Armageddon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliehelyes', 'i') feel you are incorrect, the dinosaurs had no oil based products to help them grow and yet they produced billions of barrels of oil, so if thermal depolymerization speeds up the process millions of times why cant turkeys do they same thing. It ironic turkeys the desendants of dinosaurs are going to give us oil again.

[lawnchair]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliehelyes', 'i') feel you are incorrect, the dinosaurs had no oil based products to help them grow and yet they produced billions of barrels of oil, so if thermal depolymerization speeds up the process millions of times why cant turkeys do they same thing. It ironic turkeys the desendants of dinosaurs are going to give us oil again.

[Twilight]

This is not a new source of energy, it is a dubious lifecycle efficiency gain which requires the system to remain as it is.

This reminds me of the idiots writing letters to the newspapers these days saying "Hey, I am running my car off recycled vegetable oil, if I can do it so can everyone else!"

Uh, no. Those letters are a few guys tapping a waste stream from existing hydrocarbon energy inputs. The waste stream itself owes its existence to those fossil fuel inputs and the configuration of the society that transformed them. No primary energy input, or no spare cans of vegetable oil, or no mechanised convenience food industry to produce them, and there goes their waste stream.

That in turn reminds me of the electric car proponents who deny an extensive rebuilding of the power grid would be necessary to support mass ownership. In effect they are assuming (hoping?) other people can and will carry on business as usual in sufficient numbers for them to freeload off past investment. Sorry to interrupt your daydream with an LME copper chart.

[basil_hayden]

If we start with mad dogs and Englishmen, we may have a chance.

[tiger21]

My first post on the site, i like to research on the principles of Zero Waste and Zero-net Energy.
New Technology that can turn landfill waste into Diesel Fuel.
The process is called Catalytic Depolymerization.
the USA Militery working with two other companies are working on a project that will be mobile, which will turn their Waste into Diesel and Jet-Fuel.

[Ronin]

"Hurry Charlie there is not much time"

[Ronin]

Seriously though welcome to the site, do you have any figures for energy input versus energy return or some links?

Masterless

[tiger21]

Green Power, Inc www.cleanenergyprojects.com

hope to learn how to post links so you just click on them, in the future, thats why i'm here to learn from you Guys.
www.catalticdepolymerization.org/forum www.technologyreview.com/energy/19974/?nlid=767
will check and post links to zero energy buildings next
try www.netzeroenergyhome.ca www.energy.gov/6454.htm and www.renewableenergyworld.com

hope this is what you want.!!!