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The Singularity University

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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 16:05:59

it's a statement of your opinion, given with the certitude of fact perhaps you don't understand what that means?

Also hopefully you have adjusted your opinion accordingly, since I have debunked it.

Look up your own science news, have you read all the science news links in this thread? did you watch the video I linked on neural networks?
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 16:28:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'i')t's a statement of your opinion, given with the certitude of fact perhaps you don't understand what that means?

Also hopefully you have adjusted your opinion accordingly, since I have debunked it.

Look up your own science news, have you read all the science news links in this thread? did you watch the video I linked on neural networks?
I recall you castigating me for acting superior. Now who is acting superior? You resort to this "do you even know what that means?" rhetoric as if it was an argument. I watched about 15 minutes of that video and lost interest. He did mention, however, that we don't know how the brain accomplishes pattern recognition at the outset. Maybe instead of rancor and posting links you could just tell me yourself what has in fact been accomplished. Are there machines with intuition? Is there a machine even that can land on a tree branch with the precision and grace of a bird? Is there a machine that can compose a symphony or a sonnet? Is there a machine that can fall in love?
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 16:36:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'i')t's a statement of your opinion, given with the certitude of fact perhaps you don't understand what that means?

Also hopefully you have adjusted your opinion accordingly, since I have debunked it.

Look up your own science news, have you read all the science news links in this thread? did you watch the video I linked on neural networks?
I recall you castigating me for acting superior. Now who is acting superior? You resort to this "do you even know what that means?" rhetoric as if it was an argument. I watched about 15 minutes of that video and lost interest. He did mention, however, that we don't know how the brain accomplishes pattern recognition at the outset. Maybe instead of rancor and posting links you could just tell me yourself what has in fact been accomplished. Are there machines with intuition? Is there a machine even that can land on a tree branch with the precision and grace of a bird? Is there a machine that can compose a symphony or a sonnet? Is there a machine that can fall in love?


As I said it's tiring dealing with you. Also I castigated you for using superiority/ridicule as your entire argument. You are still using arguments that are frustratingly ignorant so yes I'm going to talk down to you when you do.

Did you get far enough in the video to see the demonstration part? (as I remember it was somewhere around the 15 minute mark), he shows his program doing number recognition, and shows its 'thoughts' during it.

The rest of your post is an argument from ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 16:54:53

You didn't answer my questions. Come down off your high horse and answer the questions. Particularly the one about love. Remember this as well, we are not just talking to each other, we have an audience, people to judge. I am making a humanist argument that machines cannot replicate life.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 16:57:42

I did answer the questions.

the answer is 'you are using an argument from ignorance'.

read the link.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 17:10:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'I') did answer the questions.

the answer is 'you are using an argument from ignorance'.

read the link.
No, you did not answer the questions. Answer the questions. You may find it tiring, but I don't. Let's play this out.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 17:23:58

Fine, I will answer your individual questions.

given that the entire charade is a logical fallacy




Are there machines with intuition?

yes, expert systems 'guess' at answers all the time.





Is there a machine even that can land on a tree branch with the precision and grace of a bird?

Not that I am aware of, is it your position that this would be impossible to do?

How about a machine that can swim with the grace of a fish?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO9oseiCTdk





Is there a machine that can compose a symphony or a sonnet?

yes

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... D=18307811





Is there a machine that can fall in love?

you 'especially' want me to answer this question because it's the only one where the answer is a definitve no, for now.

Again, logical fallacy, just because it doesn't exist right now does not prove that it is impossible.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 17:44:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')Are there machines with intuition?
yes, expert systems guess at answers all the time.
OK, they guess as they are programmed to guess.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')i]Is there a machine even that can land on a tree branch with the precision and grace of a bird?
Not that I am aware of, is it your position that this would be impossible to do?
Yes, it is.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')i]Is there a machine that can compose a symphony or a sonnet?
yes
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... D=18307811
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o far, neural networks have succeeded in imitating distinct musical styles, but truly original compositions have remained elusive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')i]Is there a machine that can fall in love?
you 'especially' want me to answer this question because it's the only one where the answer is a definitve no, for now.
Again, logical fallacy, just because it doesn't exist right now does not prove that it is impossible.Of course it was assumed that man could not fly yet we built machines that could do just that. Many amazing feats have been accomplished. That in turn has given rise to the notion that we can do anything. But the notion that we can create living beings was dealt with a long time ago by Mary Shelly in her novel, Frankenstein. I say it isn't going to happen, you say it is. Fine.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 17:52:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '.')..did you watch the video I linked on neural networks?


I watched it. It was fascinating to see the most accomplished exponent of neural networks, Geoff Hinton, talk about his subject at his own level. Most of the details went over my head, of course.

Some of those Google TechTalks are great. I loved the one with Bussard describing his Polywell Fusion Reactor.

Too bad about PMS. He has nothing to add to the discussion; he only wants to spoil the thread, I guess. But what's more interesting: the efforts of the Pentagon, various universities, IBM, Google and other entities who are pioneering more advanced versions of AI? Or some anonymous nobody who can only interject "Bah!" interminably.

Hey, PMS, start a "Bah!" thread or something. You're boring.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 17:58:47

to be clear, our positions are, you say it can't happen, I say it's possible. not that it certainly will.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')K, they guess as they are programmed to guess.


wrong, they use reinforcement learning and neural networks.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s there a machine even that can land on a tree branch with the precision and grace of a bird?
Not that I am aware of, is it your position that this would be impossible to do?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, it is.


Then you are dumber than I thought (yes I'm talking down to you again), this is purely a mechanical challenge. 'precision and grace' is also a rhetorical argument and not a statement of fact, I've seen birds miss their landings, I've also seen them crash into windows, which a mechanical bird could be programmed to avoid since it would be built from the ground up instead of evolved over millions of years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o far, neural networks have succeeded in imitating distinct musical styles, but truly original compositions have remained elusive.


I knew you would pick that quote out, while conveniently ignoring ones like this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Perhaps one of the greatest achievements of artificial intelligence today lies in the construction of machines that can compose music of incredibly high quality,"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;In other words, computers can compose a new Bach cantata"

(your specific question was 'can a machine compose a symphony or sonnet, this quote specifically answers that as 'yes'.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Under the control of an artificial life model the set displays "emergent" behaviors — that is, novel compositions. Miranda has explored this approach with cellular automata, genetic algorithm-like processes he summarized as "adaptive games." "

whats that, oh that earlier quote you gave was refererring to where we were in this field and not where we are? oh...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;ChaoSynth is a successful system because it can synthesize a large amount of unusual sounds that are not normally found in the real acoustic world, but which nonetheless sound pleasing to the ear," said Miranda.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 18:14:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '.')..did you watch the video I linked on neural networks?


I watched it. It was fascinating to see the most accomplished exponent of neural networks, Geoff Hinton, talk about his subject at his own level. Most of the details went over my head, of course.

Some of those Google TechTalks are great. I loved the one with Bussard describing his Polywell Fusion Reactor.

Too bad about PMS. He has nothing to add to the discussion; he only wants to spoil the thread, I guess. But what's more interesting: the efforts of the Pentagon, various universities, IBM, Google and other entities who are pioneering more advanced versions of AI? Or some anonymous nobody who can only interject "Bah!" interminably.

Hey, PMS, start a "Bah!" thread or something. You're boring.


most of it went over my head too, but it was fascinating and the demonstration part really helped my understanding of the topic.

Sorry if I'm engaging the trolling too much, normally I let stuff like this go but since his position is really indefendable and I'm tired of seeing people get pooh pooh'd on this topic I thought I'd 'draw the venom out' so to speak.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 18:15:52

I am the very model of a singularitarian

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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 18:21:09

that was freaking awesome :)
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 18:30:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')"In other words, computers can compose a new Bach cantata"

Fascinating. I'd like to hear one. Would it also pass the Turing test? Maybe it would to all but the most trained ear. But the Deep Blue program can beat just about any human chess player alive. I have no doubt that the AI field has accomplished many amazing feats. I would expect that more will be accomplished in turn. They will, however, remain machines. If the machines ever get to the point where they can stand up and walk and mine the raw materials needed to replicate themselves they are going to feel gypped because we already mined the raw materials and let loose an avalanche of entropy.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 19:06:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')Hey, PMS, start a "Bah!" thread or something. You're boring.
Maybe to you. I think that I am keeping this cool thread alive by taking a contrarian position. If it wasn't for me, this thread would be page two by now! Bah! :-D
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Narz » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 19:30:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I') have no doubt that the AI field has accomplished many amazing feats. I would expect that more will be accomplished in turn. They will, however, remain machines. If the machines ever get to the point where they can stand up and walk and mine the raw materials needed to replicate themselves they are going to feel gypped because we already mined the raw materials and let loose an avalanche of entropy.

Come on PMS, we're hardly "out of raw materials. Besides, how much will future machines really need? Back in the day computers were the size of buses & it took them ages to solve the simplest problems. Now you can store all the posts ever posted on this forum on a chip half the size of your fingernail.

Even if we "run out" there are billions of tons of electronic trash just wanting to be recycled. If the AI is smart enough to think on it's own it will figure out to utilize all those resources just as man turns an empty field into food for thousands with a little ingenuity.

There simply has been no will to create more efficiency in the IT industry. Our civilization (as a whole though not necessarily all the citizens therein) has the bad habit of waiting until absolutely necessary to make efficiency improvements.

The cool thing about AI is that we can program it not to suffer our weaknesses, to not be tempted by vice & laziness, Just like I may not be able to resist the 2nd piece of chocolate cake but can certainly deprive my cat of a double serving of cat food for his own good. AI can go one step above the cat and not even be tempted to beg.

Evolution has designed us for a far different world than we live in now. It's an extremely slow trial-and-error system that's just begging to be upgraded.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 19:44:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Come on PMS, we're hardly "out of raw materials. Besides, how much will future machines really need?
Hi, narz. Nice to see you weigh in on this heady debate. Yeah, maybe the machines after they get us out of the way will mine the dumps for vital minerals. They'll learn to live sustainably by recycling vital materials. No need to scratch the soil for food, they'll be be powered by pixie dust.
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 01:05:52

I dont think this was posted already.

A promotional video for the university

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlgHxa9L ... re=channel
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby rsch20 » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 03:46:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')"In other words, computers can compose a new Bach cantata"

Fascinating. I'd like to hear one. Would it also pass the Turing test? Maybe it would to all but the most trained ear. But the Deep Blue program can beat just about any human chess player alive. I have no doubt that the AI field has accomplished many amazing feats. I would expect that more will be accomplished in turn. They will, however, remain machines. If the machines ever get to the point where they can stand up and walk and mine the raw materials needed to replicate themselves they are going to feel gypped because we already mined the raw materials and let loose an avalanche of entropy.


the turing test is a test where a human observer talks with another entity using some form of chat program etc, and the human observer must decide if the entity is a human or a computer. I don't see how that test relates to a music composing AI.

Classical Music Composed by Computer: Experiments in Musical Intelligence

http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Music-C ... B000028BYK

you can hear samples here (I liked number 8).

http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/window/ ... LO,00.html

note that this CD was released in 1997.

Here is a story by Douglas Hofstadter (whose intelligence I find intimidating, Goedel, Escher, Bach was difficult material for me to digest), where he recounts finding out about this very music. (In G.E.B. he wrote that music would be one of the last things to fall to AI).

(this link tried to run a '2007 office component' when I opened it, it was blocked and I didn't allow it so I don't know what it does)

'Sounds Like Bach'

http://www.unc.edu/~mumukshu/gandhi/gan ... tadter.htm
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Re: The Singularity University

Unread postby Dezakin » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 18:27:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')Hey, PMS, start a "Bah!" thread or something. You're boring.
Maybe to you. I think that I am keeping this cool thread alive by taking a contrarian position. If it wasn't for me, this thread would be page two by now! Bah! :-D

Congrats, I actually appreciated that insight.
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