Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 15:43:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')What if they outlawed CDSs.


The damage is done and the crash is in progress. I think we have to worry more about getting through this crisis before we think about how to avoid the next one.


Yeah, but it seems to me they are dealing with the new crisis like they should have done with the last one.

I am also wondering if this wouldn't be a perfect moment to literally wipe out all the currencies and start "afresh" with "one" currency, after all we're all connected (and yes, now I am sounding like I need to stock up on tinfoil hats).

Last night someone told me something interesting, which I am not sure how much stake to put in, the vibe I get off the guys is a bit... well, let's say mixed.

Either way, he claims that he knows a senior legal council with a large British bank through his business partner. Apparently that guy was in D.C. until yesterday talking "bailout" and apparently also it didn't go so well. He claimed that they were told that all the banks are starting to pile up gold as they do not trust any currency anymore (at the moment?), considering that someone here was saying that there is no bullion available anywhere I wonder if that may be the reason why?

If that's the case, I think we are really FUBARed and it is only a question of time before someone really flushes us down the toilet.

He also said that some things are "moving" right now and will be implemented Monday and that I better stock up on popcorn because next week will be "very entertaining in your doomerish way."

I'd say "I want my mommy" now, but I am too old for that, so I guess popcorn it is.
User avatar
Snowrunner
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed 24 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Screwed

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby StuckInPhilly » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 15:55:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drgoodword', 'T')he root causes of this problem are:

1. Unsustainable growth (economic and human).
2. Fractional Reserve Banking
3. Government/Corporate Opacity & Poor Regulation/Oversight
4. The Inevitable Boom/Bust Cycle Of Capital-based Credit Creation (perhaps best described by Kondratieff)
5. Greed
6. (Possibly, Usuary)

More recently and specifically, the cause is the Greenspan and Bush administration decision in 2002 to artificially lift the U.S. economy out of recession by facilitating a housing boom through an unprecedented loosening of banking lending standards and massive credit creation. During the period 2002-2006, U.S. economic growth was driven almost solely by the housing boom via housing job creation and consumer spending financed by home equity borrowing. This created an unprecedented credit/housing bubble not just in the U.S., but in the entire world (even Poland experienced a housing boom).

Now the credit/housing bubble has collapsed, and there is no new source of growth in the economy sufficient to replace the former housing market economic driver. Hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth have evaporated in the housing bust and the recent stock market super-correction. Consumers and businesses have made a 180 degree financial turn and are all in recession mode, creating a feedback loop of increasing economic contraction. Banks and investment firms are collapsing in the wake of failed investments related to the housing and stock markets. An unthinkable amount of paper wealth (reportedly over $50 Trillion) is held in hedge funds which may also collapse, causing unprecedented and unpredictable damage to the financial system.

There is no solution, at least not in the short or even medium term. It is like asking doctors for the solution to a leg that is consumed with gangrene. The only "solution" is to cut the leg off. Unfortunately, people are rarely ready to accept radical economic surgery, and will usually support the politicians promising the rosiest and least painful solutions, no matter how unworkable they are.

The only solution that I see working is to let financial institutions fail, accept that the economy will be in a severe depression for something like a decade with unemployment at 25% plus, and undertake government sponsored programs to ensure the most basic economic functions along with a universal jobs training program to alleviate unemployment (without straight "welfare" payments) and prepare for the eventual economic recovery (which, as a peak oiler of the more pessimistic variety, I suspect will never happen...but you gotta try, anyway).



Well said.
Much of what is in this thread is intelligent and I agree with a great deal of it (sans the biblical nonsense).
However, with the US's religious attachment to laissez-faire economics, does anyone think that these gov't programs will take place?
In the great depression their was not the kind of ingrained "socialistic = evil" thinking that prevails now, so I think these kind of helpful programs will be slim to none.
Perhaps I'm being cynical...
“In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.”
[Fran Lebowitz
StuckInPhilly
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu 24 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby lateStarter » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 16:20:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his created an unprecedented credit/housing bubble not just in the U.S., but in the entire world (even Poland experienced a housing boom).


Just wanted to update you on this in case you haven't been here in a while. Unfortunately, we still seem to be 'booming' at least here in Warsaw. Everytime we travel to Warsaw, our trip gets shorter and shorter since they continue to expand. The cranes are all working and prices for basic starter level apartments on the NW side of Warsaw are recently advertised at around 7000 PLN per sqm. I have heard however that it is getting harder and harder to get a loan.

And to the OP - who is this 'We' that you are talking about?
We have been brought into the present condition in which we are unable neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them. - Livy
User avatar
lateStarter
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed 06 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: 38 km west of Warsaw, Poland

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 16:32:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')What if they outlawed CDSs.


The damage is done and the crash is in progress. I think we have to worry more about getting through this crisis before we think about how to avoid the next one.


The crash is in progress but we are still at 20,000 feet. Lets not go all the way down if we can help it. At the peak CDSs were at over 60 trillion and just redeaming 5 trillion has put us at today. If we could just repudiate this ficticious debt the rest of the world could go on like they were never invented. I think that is a better option than heading for our bunkers.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 16:54:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'I')f we could just repudiate this ficticious debt the rest of the world could go on like they were never invented. I think that is a better option than heading for our bunkers.


As tempting as the idea is, I don't think that is really a realistic possiblity.

It would really only work if not only the debt would be "written off" but also all the other "money market instruments" go away, that would almost certainly require completely new currency and re-evaluation of any real assetts.

Or differently: It would require the entire financial system to be torn down and re-build from zero, I don't think something like this has ever been attempted, much less on a global scale and I don't think this could work in a "gradual" move either, it would be an "all or nothing" thing.

We're stuck, we've built a "better mousetrap" and are now caught in it ourselves. The only "hope" I see is to hold on for dear life while we go down and hope that once the dust settles we're still standing (of course at that point things like Peakoil or climate change may get us).
User avatar
Snowrunner
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed 24 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Screwed
Top

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 17:04:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'I')f we could just repudiate this ficticious debt the rest of the world could go on like they were never invented. I think that is a better option than heading for our bunkers.


As tempting as the idea is, I don't think that is really a realistic possiblity.

It would really only work if not only the debt would be "written off" but also all the other "money market instruments" go away, that would almost certainly require completely new currency and re-evaluation of any real assetts.

Or differently: It would require the entire financial system to be torn down and re-build from zero, I don't think something like this has ever been attempted, much less on a global scale and I don't think this could work in a "gradual" move either, it would be an "all or nothing" thing.

We're stuck, we've built a "better mousetrap" and are now caught in it ourselves. The only "hope" I see is to hold on for dear life while we go down and hope that once the dust settles we're still standing (of course at that point things like Peakoil or climate change may get us).


I hope when the dust settles from this one it dosn't glow in the dark. Time to go and pack the carrots in sand and put them in the root cellar. Ready or not here it comes.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 22:18:36

Best Quotes of September 2008

10/1/2008
by John Rubino


Ty Andros, Tedbits
The greatest transfer of wealth from those that store their wealth in paper to those that don't is unfolding. ALL markets will have to price in the reality that the G7 in general and the financial and banking industries in particular (there are exceptions to this) are INSOLVENT. Rather than default through the normal process they will default through the printing press.

Ted Butler, Investment Rarities
This week I received an e-mail from a Swiss money manager, a friend and trusted source. He informed me that a very large and conservative Swiss bank had informed a number of their clients that they would no longer be offered paper gold or silver certificates in the bank’s name. It seems the bank had previously granted the accounts because it was able to protect itself against an upside move with a derivatives contract with another financial institution. Due to the financial turmoil, the bank was no longer comfortable with the counterparty risk from the other financial institution. Instead, the Swiss bank informed its clients, all paper transactions had to be converted to physical or physical ETF positions (There are Swiss ETFs for gold and silver). My friend informed me that other Swiss banks were likely to follow this bank’s lead.

In essence, the banks that issued such certificates were short the metal, and taking an enormous risk in the event of a sharp price rise. Because they had been issued for decades, the cumulative amount of the short position in silver amounted to, perhaps, billions of ounces. This was a short position separate and distinct from the massive COMEX short position.

That the large and conservative Swiss bank is seeking to reduce or eliminate its short exposure to silver at this time makes sense. The bank has seen that silver prices can move sharply higher and that counterparty guarantees can vanish in an instant. It is sensible and practical that it would take such actions now, after silver prices moved sharply lower.

The resultant move by former paper owners of silver into real metal is destined to put additional pressure on the existing supplies of metal. It is hard to imagine a more critical time for this to occur than now. Every indication is one of tightness in the physical silver supply. The potential creation of a brand new source of silver physical demand could be profound.

Richard Daughty, the Mogambo Guru
I can tell you EXACTLY what is going to happen 'after taking all relevant factors into account', because what is going to happen is the same thing that ALWAYS happens when an idiot government starts creating, or allows to be created, excess money and credit, which is that the money in question will expand and expand, and end up with zero purchasing power while gold, when priced in a currency that has no purchasing power, soars to infinite levels when priced in that currency, and that is what has always happened, anyway, and that is why I am 100% sure, dead-bang sure, no-doubt-about-it sure, can't-miss sure that it will happen again! Betting with gold against a fiat currency in the hands of politicians is the biggest no-brainer on the planet! Whee! This investing stuff is easy!

John Embry, Sprott Asset Management
I don’t understand why the majors aren't acquiring because I've never seen anything like the discrepancy in value between the big cap stocks and the small stuff. Many interesting smaller companies are trading for a song; whereas, Agnico-Eagle and Goldcorp and Kinross are aggressively valued.

The Gold Report: Some of the juniors have lost 80%.

John Embry: If you had told me we'd see this kind of carnage in the juniors while gold was still north of $800, I would have said impossible. One of the reasons is that investors are giving up and gold funds, ours included, are under redemption pressure. This creates forced selling with insufficient buying and that leads to the most depressed prices since this cycle began in 2000.

TGR: How long can this go on?

JE: I don’t know but I’ve got some that actually are selling below the cash on their balance sheets.

Ambrose Evans-Prichard, Telegraph UK
An entire generation of American policy-makers - Clinton, Bush, Rubin, Greenspan, and the Congressional leadership of both parties - has come perilously close to ruining a great nation. The creation of the credit bubble was one of the most disgraceful episodes of economic government in western history.

Nothing can justify it. There is no parallel to the Spain of Phillip II, who ruined his empire to pursue the religious cause of Counter-Reformation, or to the bankruptcy of the British Empire combating fascism. It occurred because America abandoned all restraint and gave license to consumer hedonism.

Antal Fekete, Gold Standard University
The role of gold in the monetary system is anchored in the U.S. Constitution. The Founding Fathers were no fools. They knew exactly what they were talking about when they insisted on a blanket denial of power for the government to monetize its own debt, or any debt for that matter. They knew perfectly well that a metallic monetary standard is the only effective prophylactic that can deny that power. The fact that the U.S. government never considered proposing an amendment to the Constitution to legalize fiat money is a telltale. Policy-makers could not muster the necessary moral courage to face counter-arguments in an open debate. Irredeemable currency has no integrity: the issuer is given privileges with no countervailing responsibilities. He is granted unlimited power in a republic based on the principle of limited and enumerated powers. The principle of checks and balances is thrown to the winds. These features are all alien to the spirit of the Constitution, not just to its letter.

James Grant, Grant’s Interest Rate Observer
Which failing financial institution will the administration pluck from the flames of crisis? Which will it let roast? Which market, or investment technique, will the regulators bless? Which — in a capricious change of the rules — will it condemn or outlaw? Just how shall the Treasury secretary spend the $700 billion he’s begging for? Viewed from Wall Street, the administration’s recent actions appear erratic enough. Seen from the perch of a foreign investor, they must look very much like “political risk,” a phrase we Americans usually associate with so-called emerging markets, not with our own very developed one.

Kurt Kasun, Greenfaucet
We are now on the brink of a collapse in confidence that brings the whole world financial system to its knees. Each market intervening action is becoming more extraordinary. The rallies which pull the suckers in following the intervening actions are becoming more brief and less powerful. I expect this one to be no different. This sequence has now become a broken record. Markets threaten to take out technical support levels and the government comes to the rescue. Armageddon is avoided until another day and a relief rally ensues on the belief that the government has fixed the problem and a new bull market can begin. After all, this is how investors have been conditioned over the last three decades.

I can’t wait to see what they have up their sleeves for the next debacle. Ed Sullivan would say “we are in for a really big show.” They better think up something fast because they are up against a multi-decade extended market that is now headed down after just having reached a major double top.

Nicholas von Hoffman, The Nation
Instead of rounding up the escaped felons from their Wall Street dens and re-imposing law and order, Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke have been running to the scenes of the crimes committed by the escapees to attend to the wounded and cart off the dead. All fine and noble, but in their ill-considered attempts to help they are creating anarchy. They are making various state capitalist precedents which have no pattern or direction but will open us up to the depredations of every business lobby and special-interest group. Soon Paulson and company are going to have to deal with a desperate automobile industry pleading for a $25 billion loan. Once upon a time the car companies were too big to fail. They are now so shrunken they are merely too important to fail. When they get their money, another chaotic step into state capitalism will have been taken.

France has operated under a form of state capitalism since before its revolution. It is carried out with a modicum of planning and self-discipline. When the French state invests in a company, it has a plausible rationale for what it is doing. The United States has none. Without realizing it, we are ripping holes in our free-market system and filling them with a jumble of ineffectual expedients. The Freddie and Fannie takeover will not take care of our problems. It will not hold back the night.


Eric Janszen, iTulip
Politicians forget that a short seller is a buyer albeit at a lower price. Take him away and in a market panic there are no buyers at all. A market can in theory then fall to zero. You've been warned.

At this point in the race between the disinflationary impact of recession and debt deflation and the inflationary impact of moving all manner of worthless assets onto the Fed’s and Federal Government’s balance sheets, disinflation may be winning. At some point before the zero bound is reached, never mind the point of actual deflation (negative inflation rate such as -2%), if the US experience is like any other net debtor's in history a currency accident will occur as global financial markets realize that the US position as a safe haven relative to its trade partners has reversed. A rapid, self-reinforcing process of capital flight and dollar depreciation will begin.

Ron Paul, Texas Congressman
Can sound money give you financial security? There is something very comforting in knowing that what you earn today will retain its purchasing power in the years to come. Indeed, the same silver dime that bought a loaf of bread in the 1960's can still buy a loaf of bread with its precious metal content - which is worth about $1.00 today. An ounce of gold has always been about evenly exchangeable for a finely tailored men's suit, which these days is roughly $800. And in these days of fluctuating gas prices, when priced in gold, oil has been stable. Meanwhile, since the creation of the Federal Reserve, the fiat dollar has lost 94% of its purchasing power. The erosion of purchasing power rapidly accelerated when it was completely uncoupled from gold in 1971. This sort of fluctuation in the medium of exchange creates a lot of uncertainty in the marketplace and necessitates that you either take extraordinary defensive maneuvers, or face financial ruin.

The bailout package that is about to be rammed down Congress' throat is not just economically foolish. It is downright sinister. It makes a mockery of our Constitution, which our leaders should never again bother pretending is still in effect. It promises the American people a never-ending nightmare of ever-greater debt liabilities they will have to shoulder. The claim that the market caused all this is so staggeringly foolish that only politicians and the media could pretend to believe it. But that has become the conventional wisdom, with the desired result that those responsible for the credit bubble and its predictable consequences - predictable, that is, to those who understand sound, Austrian economics - are being let off the hook. The Federal Reserve System is actually positioning itself as the savior, rather than the culprit, in this mess! There goes your country.

Stephen Roach, Morgan Stanley
"The American consumer is toast, done, finished."

Nouriel Roubini, RGE Monitor
The US has performed the greatest nationalization in the history of humanity. By nationalizing Fannie and Freddie the US has increased its public assets by almost $6 trillion and has increased its public debt/liabilities by another $6 trillion. The US has also turned itself into the largest government-owned hedge fund in the world: by injecting a likely $200 billion of capital into Fannie and Freddie and taking on almost $6 trillion of liabilities of such GSEs the US has also undertaken the biggest and most levered LBO (“leveraged buy-out”) in human history that has a debt to equity ratio of 30 ($6,000 billion of debt against $200 billion of equity).

So Comrades Bush, Paulson and Bernanke (as originally nicknamed by Willem Buiter) have now turned the USA into the USSRA (the United Socialist State Republic of America). Socialism is indeed alive and well in America; but this is socialism for the rich, the well connected and Wall Street. A socialism where profits are privatized and losses are socialized with the US tax-payer being charged the bill of $300 billion.

Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., LewRockwell.com
Let us address this claim that not bailing out the system, and not nationalizing the mortgage market, would lead to a financial meltdown on the level of the Great Depression. It makes no sense to warn that we will repeat the past if we fail to do the things that actually made the past as bad as it was. The truth is exactly the opposite: to avoid another Depression-length downturn, we need to avoid the mistakes of the past, among which were the policies that attempted to keep failing firms and industries afloat in difficult economic times.

What should have happened in 1929 is precisely what should happen now. The government should completely remove itself from the course of action and let the market reevaluate resource values. That means bankruptcies, yes. That means bank closures, yes. But these are part of the capitalistic system. They are part of the free-market economy. What is regrettable is not the readjustment process, but that the process was ever made necessary by the preceding interventions.

Richard Russell, Dow Theory Letter
Question --Russell, would you talk a bit more about your preference for gold coins in one's possession vs. GLD, which you term "paper gold" and SLV, which you call "paper silver."

Answer -- Yes, as I see it the authorities are doing whatever they want. I'm more inclined to hold actual gold coins. The SEC now disallows shorting in 799 financial equities, an amazing turn of events. Now with central banks all over the world releasing vast quantities of fiat money, it's entirely possible that gold will embark on a major rise. If this happens, it will throw suspicion on all fiat currency which is the last thing the central banks want. Under these conditions, it would not surprise me for the Fed and the SEC to halt all trading in gold, and the easiest place to monitor such an edict would be GLD. In 1933 the government ordered in all gold held by the US population. I can't see that happening, but I can see all trading halted. This would throw gold into the black market and make it very difficult to price or sell your gold. In France, people are forbidden to take any gold out of the country. Remember, gold is the enemy of fiat paper, and in that there is a story. Rising gold throws suspicion on ALL fiat and central bank issued currency.

Peter Schiff, EuroPacific Capital
Of course the biggest collateral damage caused by Paulson’s bazooka is the large hole ripped through the already tattered U.S. Constitution. If the government can do this, does anyone believe there is anything it cannot do? In effect the Federal government now has absolute power to corrupt absolutely.

…While it is dizzying to predict how this plan will be implemented, it is fairly simple to foresee the macroeconomic consequences. The U.S. dollar will be shattered beyond repair. The government simply has no means to make good on the trillions of new liabilities. Interestingly, while both Paulson and President Bush acknowledge that the plan will put “significant amounts of taxpayer dollars on the line,” they did not mention any tax increases. Given the politics, no such move is forthcoming. The printing press is their only solution.

Mike Shedlock, Mish’s Global Economic Trend Analysis
Paulson: "If you have a bazooka in your pocket, and people know you have a bazooka, you may never have to take it out."

Mish: "It seems to me Paulson took out his bazooka, fired it, and shot Fannie Mae in the arse. After Fannie Mae blew sky high, Paulson was adamant not to fire another shot."

Martin Weiss, Money and Markets
Yes, the Fed can inject hundreds of billions into the banking system. But if banks don't lend, the money goes nowhere. Sure, the Treasury can inject up to $200 billion of capital into Fannie and Freddie. But if their mortgage portfolio is full of holes, all that new capital goes down the drain. And of course, the U.S. government has vast resources. But if the $49 trillion mountain of U.S. debts and the $180 trillion pile-up of U.S. derivatives are beginning to crumble, all those resources don't amount to more than a band-aid and a prayer.

Christopher Whalen, Institutional Risk Analyst
The demise of the GSEs and now the monoline investment banks, those dealers not affiliated with a commercial bank, may be considered the appetizer and soup courses of this dismal meal.

By telling Americans that their deposits were insured by the federal government, Washington desensitized generations of Americans to risk from bank failures. Now that risk is apparent and menacing to many Americans with deposits above the $100,000 FDIC insurance cap, as reflected by the user traffic on the IRA web site. Not only have we seen the search requests on our site over the past six months shift from large, publicly traded banks to smaller private banks, but the volume of search requests on our demonstration tools has risen five-fold and continues to rise. We interpret the changes in traffic patterns on the IRA web site as growing evidence of a slowly but steadily building retail bank panic. Older Americans particularly are running scared, pulling funds out of still solvent and safe institutions for fear of losing their retirement nest eggs.
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 22:39:39

Couple of other points I would like to make. I really believe that this has a great deal more to do with Peak Oil than we have been able to explain. One other big point. The unintended consequence of Reagan (winning) The Cold War. Think about this. Up until the Cold War ended, the production created behind the Iron Curtain/Bamboo Curtain was mostly of low quality and unsuitable for sale in a big way in the rich markets of the western modern world. I am sure we have all seen examples of Cold War era consumer products from Russia and China. The whole world was ours to market our goods into without competition. Then the Wall came down. Suddenly we were competing with the hundreds of millions of former Communist workers with very low cost production. The greedy multi-nationalist corps decided to exploit that resource. And it worked well for a while for them. The west began shedding the good jobs very fast to China etc. The trade imbalance grew faster and faster. Workers were being displaced quickly in the west. Then add in the housing bubble, and the continued living far beyond our means. Don't get me wrong. We do need some way of taking care of the truly needy in society, we can't just watch them die on the streets. The other part to the problem for the USA, has been it's role as world policeman. This has been very expensive for the American people and a heavy burden. As Fitts stated many Trillions of taxdollars has vanished into Black holes and Budgets. And the Gubmint still refuses to show the books. Anyway just some thoughts on the root causes.
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Sun 12 Oct 2008, 22:58:26

May as well have a laugh now eh! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Mon 13 Oct 2008, 06:36:41

I think the cause started when companies were recognized as legal entities which allowed people to hide behind them to do their dirty deals and shady money making/printing.

Still to this day we are letting the CEOs off without making them the least bit responsible for the mess they made, even when they are somewhat shielded by the "corporation" designation. I dont think it was as bad when people had to take personal responsibility for their actions or the actions of those who reported to them.
User avatar
uNkNowN ElEmEnt
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Sat 04 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: perpetual state of exhaustion

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Mon 13 Oct 2008, 07:19:17

The beginning of the real estate Bubble. A form of Tulip Mania was started by the socialist policies of Bill Clinton. Ninja Loans...................................................... Bill Clinton's drive to increase homeownership went way too far
Posted by: Peter Coy on February 27

Add President Clinton to the long list of people who deserve a share of the blame for the housing bubble and bust. A recently re-exposed document shows that his administration went to ridiculous lengths to increase the national homeownership rate. It promoted paper-thin downpayments and pushed for ways to get lenders to give mortgage loans to first-time buyers with shaky financing and incomes. It’s clear now that the erosion of lending standards pushed prices up by increasing demand, and later led to waves of defaults by people who never should have bought a home in the first place.

President Bush continued the practices because they dovetailed with his Ownership Society goals, and of course Congress was strongly behind the push. But Clinton and his administration must shoulder some of the blame.

In writing this blog entry, I’m following the lead of Joseph R. Mason, who is a finance professor at Drexel University’s LeBow College of Business, a senior fellow at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School, and a consultant at Criterion Economics. Here is a link to a piece that he wrote on Feb. 26.

The Clinton-era document that Mason cites—“The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream”—was hiding in plain sight

on the website of the Department of Housing & Urban Development until last year, when according to Mason it was removed (probably because the housing bust made it seem embarrassing to the department). Mason credits Joshua Rosner of Graham Fisher & Co. with saving a copy of it before it was expunged.

The National Homeownership Strategy began in 1994 when Clinton directed HUD Secretary Henry Cisneros to come up with a plan, and Cisneros convened what HUD called a "historic meeting" of private and public housing-industry organizations in August 1994. The group eventually produced a plan, of which Mason sent me a PDF of Chapter 4, the one that argues for creative measures to promote homeownership.

The very worst idea in the plan, which fortunately never gained approval, was to let first-time homebuyers freely tap their IRA and 401(k) retirement-savings plans with no penalty to scrounge up a downpayment. That, HUD estimated, would have "benefited" 600,000 families in the first five years.

Plenty of other ideas in the plan did become reality, though. Knowing what we know now about the housing bust, the earnest language in the document seems faintly ridiculous. Here's an excerpt. Read it closely and you can see the seeds of disaster being planted:

For many potential homebuyers, the lack of cash available to accumulate the required downpayment and closing costs is the major impediment to purchasing a home. Other households do not have sufficient available income to to make the monthly payments on mortgages financed at market interest rates for standard loan terms. Financing strategies, fueled by the creativity and resources of the private and public sectors, should address both of these financial barriers to homeownership.

Note the praise for "creativity." That kind of creativity in stretching boundaries we could use less of. Mason puts it well: "It strikes me as reckless to promote home sales to individuals in such constrained financial predicaments."
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Mon 13 Oct 2008, 07:20:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'I') think the cause started when companies were recognized as legal entities which allowed people to hide behind them to do their dirty deals and shady money making/printing.

Still to this day we are letting the CEOs off without making them the least bit responsible for the mess they made, even when they are somewhat shielded by the "corporation" designation. I dont think it was as bad when people had to take personal responsibility for their actions or the actions of those who reported to them.


Actually, this abrogation of personal responsibility goes further back than incorporation, it goes back to the illegalization of Slavery and the abolishment of Debtor's Prisons.

As I recall it, Donald Trump went Bankrupt at least once, maybe twice. However, he was always able to refinance afterward, build still bigger on the debt. Why after losing millions he was able to get loans to rebuild is beyond me, when I could not even get a measly $100K loan to start a business I wanted to get into, but whatever.

In any event, while the monetary scheme moved forward taking the wealth one person creates thru work and shifting it to another who controls the products created, the discovery and application of the thermodynamic power of oil made it possible to repudiate debt and to replace human labor with the internal combustion engine. And so slavery was repudiated on the overt level, and so were debtor's prisons. But of course neither REALLY disappeared, overt slavery was replaced by economic slavery and instead of debtor's prisons you got prisons full of people shut out of the economic system who devolved into a life of crime and drug abuse. You know, for many at the far low end of our society, Prison is a BETTER life than they have outside. At least they get 3 square meals a day in there, and as long as the prisons are semi-humane in the treatment of the prisoners the system works. Epensive sytem to maintain though obviously. As is the welfare system expensive to maintain, this is just a version of keeping your debtors out of prison and feeding them on the streets.

Centralized wealth always creates some winners and some losers in the game of life. When you become destitute, if you cannot find some way to make a living for yourself you are a burden to the society. Has to show up somewhere, either in social welfare or the prison population, if you don't outright exterminate those impoverished, as the Nazis did. Communists tried to address this problem by redistribution of the wealth of a nation to all, but of course greed wins out in this organization also in a large population and it really became totalitarianism, not true communism in the case of the USSR.

Unless and until we work downward to the Tribal level, in a world of scarce resources you can only end up with slavery, and I suspect in the short term this slavery is far more overt than the economic slavery we have become accustomed to since the beginning of the industrial revoluton. It will fall apart though, as all suc societies before fell apart. Evntually the masters become so dependent on the slaves they cannot survve without them, and eventually the slaves become so many the masters cannot control them. In this case, I don't see this period as lasting all that long, because of the diminishing resources. In the end, the Meek Shall Inherit the Earth. Not without a lot of pain though, but is only temporal pain for the innocent subjected to this. For those who buy into it and cause it however, its not temporal. Its Eternal. Such folks who buy into this, who live their lives at the expense of others and revel in that as Market Traders and Bankers are Damned to Everlasting Torment Burning in the Fires of Hell. I GUARANTEE it.

You can see me on the Other Side to get your Guarantee. LOL.

Reverse Engineer.
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Mon 13 Oct 2008, 07:28:14

Clinton's Tulip Mania Bears Fruit..... 'Ninja' loans explode on sub-prime frontline

By Edmund Conway, in San Francisco
Last Updated: 4:24PM BST 22 Sep 2008

Comments 68 | Comment on this article

Sale of the century: property insiders fear middle-class families will now be drawn into the sub-prime disaster
Never in her 20 years in the property market has Heidi Mueller been so much in demand. As one of the leading foreclosure and short sales agents in the San Francisco property market, she is the first person you go to when you can't afford your mortgage payments and need to sell your home, fast.

The Federal Reserve's rescue has failed
The latest news and analysis on the credit crisis
Europe to withstand America's sub-prime excess
As the sub-prime crisis reaches its climax, she has barely had a moment to stop.

"This year is the vintage of 2005," she says. "Last year everyone that came in had bought in 2004. Just like clockwork: three years go by, then the teaser rates go and," she gestures towards the door of her real estate office, "in they come."

This is the front line of the sub-prime maelstrom and the biggest crisis in US property for decades. With an economic earthquake shuddering through the American housing market, prices have already fallen by around 10pc nationwide. Appropriately enough, one of the major epicentres runs along the San Andreas Fault. By January, California had the biggest number of properties facing default and foreclosure in the US - at just over 57,158 more than double the equivalent figure from last year.

Take a tour through the Bay area and before long you can see how at the heart of this economic problem is a worrying divide between the property haves and have-nots. In the core of the city itself, on the picture postcard streets that line areas such as Pacific Heights and other smart districts, prices are still healthy, in some cases still rising. But drive over the Bay Bridge to East Oakland and beyond and the mirage of well-being dissolves away. Here the streets turn from Victorian grandeur to lines of shack-like bungalows, and a disturbing number are up for sale.

"This guy used to be paying $1,500 a month," says Mueller. "Then three years later it went up to $6,000."

The family, who are now selling up for a fraction of what they paid, are one of millions faced each year with a sudden increase in their mortgage rates as the cheap deals they signed up to expire and they are shifted onto exorbitant rates. It is these so-called mortgage resets which are triggering each year, bringing forcing more troubled families to sell their homes in a rush at knock-down prices or face having them repossessed. Given that 2005 and 2006 marked the peak of the US housing boom, it is this year and next's vintages which will be the most miserable.

"If it had just doubled that wouldn't have been so bad - at least they could rent an extra room out," says Mueller. "That's what most families do to make up the difference. Then when that fails they try to do it with credit cards. Sooner or later they end up coming to see me.

"They come because they've been beaten to death."

More specifically, they come to try to sell their home before their mortgage company repossesses it. Under relatively recent legislation, they can strike a deal with their lender to sell it themselves and avoid seeing it featured in one of the increasingly popular foreclosure auctions. It is rather like choosing self-immolation over the birch.

According to the Case-Shiller index of housing, prices in 20 of the country's biggest cities dropped at the fastest rate on record in December, and fell by over 9pc on the year. To put this in perspective, during the early 1990s housing recession annual price falls only hit 2.8pc at the worst point.

Most experts anticipate further sharp falls, as much as 15-30pc over the coming years.

According to Robert Shiller himself, a property expert and professor at Yale, "Wherever you look things look bleak, with 17 of the 20 metro areas reporting annual declines and the remaining three reporting flat or moderate growth rates. Looking closely at these negative returns, you will see that 14 of the metro areas are also reporting record lows and eight are in double digit decline."

However, this broad brush picture obscures the massive disparities between different areas.

States such as California and Florida have suffered much worse than many others (prices in Miami are down 17.5pc on the year). This was partly a result of massive over investment and a glut of new building; partly because the local markets got so frothy so fast in the years that followed the dotcom bust.

For it was after the collapse in the technology bubble that former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan cut US interest rates to record lows and, according to his detractors, left them too low for too long, pumping more air into the housing bubble. But just as culpable were the mortgage brokers who sold loans to customers who were unlikely ever to have the ability to repay them.

It is now pretty well established, too, that these loans tended to go not merely to the poorest families, but, in general, were marketed at America's black and Hispanic populations. They were the most likely to take on the so-called "ninja" loans (no income, no job, no assets). According to one real estate broker in Oakland, all some credulous households were told was: "firma, fecha" - Spanish for "signature, date."

One family - the husband is a janitor, the wife a cleaner - bought their two bedroom bungalow in Oakland for $420,000 in 2005. Now their mortgage rate has reset and it is on the market for $119,000. It probably won't fetch the list price.

Over in Detroit there are now more than a handful of properties on the market at $100 (and no, that's not a misprint - just search through property website realtor.com to see).

These kind of properties are all being sold by a very specific section of society - the so-called sub-prime buyers with poor credit records - or as Heidi puts it dolefully "It's just the junk that's coming back onto the market."

However this is unlikely to remain the case. As unemployment rises - and it already is, sharply - more middle class families will find themselves out of a job and possibly having to sell. Experts also fear that whereas the so-called teaser rate problem is generally limited to working class families, a different mortgage-related issue could be about to strike the white-collar community.

Millions of relatively well-off families took out adjustable-rate mortgages that allow borrowers to pay so little each month that the amount owed actually increases over time rather than being eroded away. Industry insiders fear that with property prices falling, these families will find themselves facing record levels of negative equity, which may trigger a second tide of defaults.

While this is all playing out a few thousand miles away from Britain, the effects on the UK economy, and for that matter the finances of families across Europe and the world, could be felt almost instantly. As the recent financial crisis has shown, the US housing market is everyone's problem, since so many of the mortgages which are defaulting had been securitised away and sold onto investors all over the globe. As Alan Greenspan and many of other prominent economists have said, we simply won't know how long the market misery will persist until we know the full scale of the US housing crash.
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Mon 13 Oct 2008, 07:47:59

On top of this convergence add the Growing Recession in China. Made worse by Peak Oil/High Energy costs. http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet ... iness/home
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Root Cause's of the Crisis and How Do We Survive

Unread postby deMolay » Mon 13 Oct 2008, 08:05:10

Financial crisis:
A string of countries face the risk of "going bust" as financial panic sweeps Asia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America, raising the spectre of a strategic crisis in some of the world's most dangerous spots.


By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 7:55PM BST 10 Oct 2008

Nuclear-armed Pakistan is bleeding foreign reserves at an alarming rate leading to fears that it could default on its loans.

There are mounting fears that Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Argentina could all now slide into a downward spiral towards bankruptcy, while western banks exposed to property bubble across Eastern Europe have seen their share price crushed.

The markets are pricing an 80pc risk that Ukraine will default, based on five-year credit default swaps (CDS) – an insurance policy on a country being able to pay its debts.

The country's banking system has begun to break down after years of torrid credit growth; its steel mills are shutting as demand collapses; and the political crisis is going from bad to worse.

President Viktor Yushchenko dissolved parliament this week in a dispute that risks bitter conflict with the country's Russian bloc. Diplomats fear Moscow could be drawn into the crisis – or even use it as a pretext to occupy territory in a replay of the Georgia invasion this summer.

Ukraine's government seized Prominvestbank this week, suspending payments to creditors. It closed the Kiev stock market, which has fallen 73pc this year.

Emerging market stocks have been tumbling since their peak in October, when investors were still betting that rising stars such as the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, China) were now strong enough to shake off a US crisis. That illusion has been shattered.

The International Monetary Fund said it is mobilising a "rapid-fire" fund worth several hundred billion dollars to stop a domino collapse across the developing world.

The trigger for the latest round of capital flight has been the lightning implosion of Iceland. BNP Paribas warned clients yesterday that the island is heading for "sovereign default" with contagion risks for other economies that have been living beyond their means on foreign credit.

Hungary had to intervene yesterday to prop up its markets following a run on country's biggest lender OTP. The Budapest bourse fell 13pc. The treasury had to scrap a bond auction.

The most new mortgages in Hungary are in Swiss francs, leaving the homeowners facing a vicious squeeze as the forint plunges against the franc.

In Pakistan, the rupee has fallen to an all-time low. Standard & Poor's downgraded the country's sovereign debt to near write-off levels of CCC-plus. The central bank's foreign reserves have fallen to $4.7bn (£2.73billion).

"The danger of default is hovering," said Professor Kaisar Bengali from Karachi University.

"Pakistan may not be able to re-pay its debt or import anything," he said, adding that the country cannot assume that it will be bailed out for strategic reasons.

Default risk on Kazakhstan's top banks has risen to 70pc as property bubble bursts in the former Soviet republic and reliance in foreign credit comes back to haunt.

The country has mortgaged its future to oil prices, which crashed below $80 a barrel yesterday as the whole nexus of commodities (except gold) buckled in a wave of forced selling.

Analysts warn that it is leading indicator for what could happen if Russia if crude falls much further.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... cialcrisis
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Previous

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron