[kublikhan]

Ghung, I don't think your priorities are strange. Some things the government does I also have a problem with. And there are some changes I would like to see for our grid as well. However I do not think it is a good idea to turn every household into a power plant. I realize it was baha who was pushing "the rise of the personal powerplant" argument and not you, but this is the argument I was responding to when you joined the conversation. And it's not because your choice makes me feel insecure about how dependent I am on the system. I came to terms with that long ago. This ship goes down we're all going down with it! It's because I feel some things are better done in a central, organized manner rather than independently.

Did you know this country used to have private fire companies? There used to fight each other(I mean physically brawl) when a fire broke out to see who would get to put out the fire while the building was burning behind them. Other times they would stand and watch a building burn down because that household didn't pay for fire fighting services. This is not a proper way to run a fire fighting service. Running a centralized and official fire company is a much more efficient, even if a degree of independence is sacrificed because of this choice.

In a similar vein I think centralized power production is the better path for society to follow instead of rooftop Solar PV + batteries + backup generator for everyone. One large utility solar PV array produces more energy at a cheaper cost than a similar number of rooftop panels. And one backup power plant and pumped storage facility is more efficient and lower cost than thousands of diesel generators and battery banks. And I am not simply referring to a financial cost. That also includes the environmental cost, material costs, etc.

And as for subsidies, Solar PV is far more heavily subsidized in terms of dollars per MWh than fossil fuels:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') study by the University of Texas projected that U.S. energy subsidies per megawatt hour in 2019 would be $0.5 for coal, $1- $2 for oil and natural gas, $15- $57 for wind and $43- $320 for solar. Many of the renewable energy subsidies come in the form of a Production Tax Credit (PTC) of 2.3 cents per kilowatt hour.

[KaiserJeep]

Kub, one small input. The central power plant shines in densely populated areas as you and I have both noted. But rural areas are where the grid cannot pay for itself, especially rural residences. My Grandfather's dairy farm was 3/4 mile from the road, and he didn't have milking machines or pasturizers or any modern machines (back then). He had a few bare bulbs in his house, dangling from the ceilings, and an electric fan in the Summer. But NO WAY did the REA ever make back their investment in electrifying his farm.

Today's tech is very different, and it may not make sense to have a rural power grid anymore. It may make more sense to have rural single-farm power plants.

[kublikhan]

Let's assume for the moment you are right KJ and it is more economical to have rural america go off grid. The grid is already there and these people are already used to grid power. Are you suggesting we dump 60 million rural Americans from the grid? I think you will piss off alot of people going that route. It does not seem politically feasible to me.

Microgrids seem to be growing in popularity though. In advanced countries like the US these grids are still connected to the main grid, but it also has community Solar PV, batteries, and/or a generator. The microgrid can also island itself in the event of the main grid failure. So the microgrids are a step forward in both reliability and sustainability.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he research firm GTM counts “1,900 basic and advanced, operational and planned microgrids” in the US, with the market expected to grow quickly. Most microgrids today are basic, one-generator affairs, but more complex microgrids are popping up all over — there’s a cool one in Brooklyn, a cool one on Alcatraz Island, and the coolest one of all in Sonoma, California. Microgrids also play a big role in plans to rebuild Puerto Rico’s grid.

Grid-connected microgrids can “island” from the larger grid
Most microgrids, especially in wealthier nations, are grid-connected — they are embedded inside a bigger grid, like any other utility customer. All the examples cited above fit this bill.

What makes a microgrid a microgrid is that it can flip a switch (or switches) and “island” itself from its parent grid in the event of a blackout. This enables it to provide those connected to it with (at least temporary) backup power.

[KaiserJeep]

While nothing you say is exactly WRONG, you are not seeing the big picture. Firstly, there are not 60 million US citizens (i.e. 18%) in rural areas anymore. That was true for the 2010 census but the US Census Bureau estimates that the 2017 figure was 45 million (i.e. 13%). The headlong flight from the countryside, and the absorption of the family farmsteads into corporate farms and ranches continues unabated.

NO, the rural customers don't pay more, in fact large corporate farms pay a corporate/industrial power price. Family agriculture is a marginal business as is, and rural power customers are still subsidized in many states. Electric company profits are distinctly lower on such rural sites.

Secondly there are a great many retired folks (soon hopefully including me) occupying rural homesteads, magnificent old farm homes. The electricity use is minimal and residential, the large rural power consumers in the country are large corporate food processing/packaging and meat refrigeration/freezers. These food production facilities and the smaller towns are well served by the power grid, and the old farmhouses that are presently occupied by "gentlemen farmers" and the horsey crowd are good candidates for personal power plants.

Admittedly I am an EE, but I spend a lot more time on the water well maintenance and septic tank/field routine (call it "problem avoidance") at my Nantucket home than I do on the solar panels on my roof here. You have to manage what you put into the septic tank every meal, you can't even own a garbage disposal, and then add the proper enzymes every week. Then you must compost vegetable/fruit/grain food waste seperate from meats/greases and discard the latter in the trash bin. The power company doesn't manage my well and septic system, I do. Managing a personal power plant would not be an issue if it was Internet connected like a Powerwall, or my rooftop panels/inverter, which are remote controlled by my power company PG&E via cellular modem.

Non-compliant solar systems on the grid are the only issue I see. Other compliant systems whether standalone or grid-attached can be managed remotely.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')aha; "How many times do you want to pay to rebuild your infrastructure?"

[KaiserJeep]

Well said, baha and GHung. Now to refocus on power plants and what we can do to minimize power consumption.

First of all, we need passive solar friendly zoning changes. I do not want to be forced to face my house to the street no matter what that direction must be. If I have a wall of windows in a cold climate, I want them facing within a few degrees of due South for maximum solar heat gain, and with a roof overhang that shields those same windows from direct Summer sun.

Walls should be a minimum of R-90 and roofs a minimum R-120. High performance windows and doors should be mandated, insulated basements or foundation slabs should be the norm, plus ground source heat pumps. Solar or wind local power generation where appropriate.

You either get serious about saving energy, or you don't. The basic structure of a Passive Home vs. an Energy Star home costs about 30% more, but uses less than half the energy. Retrofits can be made to the Passive House standards, but it's better and cheaper to build that way.

I've said it before, I believe that in the USA after we have renewed our infrastructure to save energy, we can live lifestyles equivalent to today while consuming 1/6 the energy we consume today.

But you have to get serious, and that requires leadersip.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'I') have never seen a complete analysis of centralized energy. Grid scale solar is great and cheap but no one ever includes the cost of distribution in the analysis. You keep saying the grid is already there...tell that to the folks in PR or FL.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'N')ow if you wish, you can take a govt tax rebate that pays you back 30%. Your payoff becomes 13 years and mine is 9.1. You can see why I jumped early I don't feel a bit guilty for taking the money. No one will die from asthma due to my system. No ash ponds will be ignored so they can wash away in a flood. No fuel trucks, no garbage trucks, and no CO2. Does that make me superior? Mother Nature thinks so

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('baha', 'I') will compromise and let you keep the grid...for a while.

[Newfie]

@ KJ

We have a wind generator and 630 watts of solar and 4 golf cart batteries.

What fraction of daily American usage is that?

[KaiserJeep]

I get by with two solar panels (400w) on top of the Jeep when camping. You can easily design a temporary residence, boat, or road vehicle for reduced power, but let's be honest, that does not represent your average energy consumption. But I'm betting, you also have a galley stove and space heating burning some form of hydrocarbon fuel. Just like I buy seasoned fire wood and use a propane Coleman stove/oven.

I would dearly LOVE to put up a 15-25kVA wind turbine on Nantucket, but the zoning and permits for a "Historic District" (not to mention I'm a mile from a busy airport), are formidible hurdles. I am thinking of building 1 or 2 rental properties first, then a single wind turbine to power several homes, all all-electric (except backup heat), with efficient applliances and heat pump HVAC systems.

[vtsnowedin]

The grid power went down again here last night. A windy evening so probably a tree on the line somewhere. My Honda contractors generator is humming away outside letting me have the computer and TV as I write this. That 4000 watt Honda is a great backup tool but I wouldn't want to listen to the hum or buy gas for it long term.

[KaiserJeep]

Here in sunny Kalifornia I own a $99, 500w capacity (1000w surge) 2-cycle Made-in-China generator. I have twice in 8+ years waited an hour for power to come back, then went around and unplugged everything except the refigerator and wine cooler to lessen the electrical load. Then you go outside and open the main breaker to seperate from the power grid, and remove the PCMCIA cellular modem card from the solar inverter. Then I plug the generator into the house with a male/male "cheater cord".

Five minutes after you start that little generator and advance throttle to maximum, the solar inverter powers up/syncs up and adds 2.8kVA to the existing 500VA from the tiny little generator, and you can throttle it down. The grid-attached inverter happily powers the house, less hefty appliances like the electric oven, clothes dryer, and furnace. I can still cook with gas and heat with my fireplace if it ever comes to that. But it has never come to that, our peak power consumption is mid-Summer and mid-day, with all the A/C in use, and I can run my piddling 14,000BTU A/C plus the fridge/freezer and wine cooler as long as the sun shines.

I suppose if it ever comes to it, I would preserve the food and cook from the freezer every meal. But I can't remember a power failure where that was required since 1986 when I moved here.

BTW, I don't care if Al Gore approves or not. The little generator when throttled back sips fuel and will run for days on the 2-cycle premix in the 2-gallon plastic can.

I also own a 500VA UPS system in my computer/entertainment center that (although I have never tried it) would probably backfeed the house and trigger the solar inverter online just like the generator. But using that would require that I open the branch breaker for the refigerator/freezer until the solar kicked in. I might try that next power failure.

Who needs expensive Powerwall batteries?

[KaiserJeep]

Nantucket did indeed make NOAA's list of the top 10 wind power sites in the USA a couple of decades back. However, the place doesn't allow traffic lights, or even neon signs - you can hang one painted sign less than 10 square feet and illuminate it with a plain electric bulb, and if you turn the lamp on outside of allowed hours, you get fined.

It gives the place a distinctly different "look", confuses the He!! out of tourists, and snarls traffic unbelieveably in Summertime.

The local High School has a wind turbine:

...and a local farmer has four more:

..but this is what they actually want in terms of wind power:

It is called simply "The Old Mill", and it was constructed in 1646 from timbers salvaged from shipwrecks on the shoals. I make a point of buying corn meal every time I visit it, for corn muffins.