[kolm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'C')ompressed air is a really interesting means of power storage - also of transmission if you get the technology right. It's used extensively today, in engineering workshops and also the mining industry.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kolm', '
')I'd rather think he had major problems with some fundamental principles of physics and engineering, and those are the same now. First of all, the energy density of vacuum-induced pressure is lousy, meaning that your acceleration will be very slow. Second, materials are available which can withstand continuous vaccum, but would cost dearly. Third, maintenance would be problematic; if there's a leakage or a simple malfunction, not only the single train won't move, but no train on this part of the railway. Fourth, operation of trains at track switches would be awkward at best. And last, the competition with electricity-driven trains kills the technology in the cradle.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'A')aron's right. Compressing air then decompressing it to run a motor is really inefficient. They also are way optimistic on their range estimates, they have not achieved anything close to that.

[kolm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'A')aron's right. Compressing air then decompressing it to run a motor is really inefficient. They also are way optimistic on their range estimates, they have not achieved anything close to that.

[yesplease]

Well, it really depends on the validity of their assertions, which would need to be evaluated individually. Engineering fantasies or not, I wouldn't hold my breath, but I also wouldn't knock them w/o much more concrete information. Engineering fantasies are generally viable, if the consumer accepts the limitations, which they usually don't. For instance, most people wouldn't want to drive a 3L Lupo even if it got ~80mpg combined because they don't consider the compromises made to get the car to ~80mpg acceptable, however, if oil were ~$100-150/bbl, more people would probably accept it.

[The_Toecutter]

That's precisely why aerodynamics should be significantly improved so we can shove a big fucking V8 into a midsize car and allow people to still get 35+ mpg while allowing 0-60 mph < 5 seconds. And we could also have 80 mpg midsize cars with diesels that still do 0-60 mph in 11 seconds.

Consumers in the US would gladly embrace efficiency then, and both the above are feasible today. The only ones averse to the idea are those running the auto industry, completely unwilling to leapfrog their technology, wanting to sell everything in-between. This is the same industry that decided consumers shouldn't be able to buy EVs, even if they wanted them and even though the technoogy for long range has been here for 10 years, and thus mass EV adoption had been set back 15+ years(if it will ever occur at all).

[yesplease]

That is definitely not feasible today! If the auto industry starts building V8s that get ~35mpg combined, they may as well throw in the towel completely, because 150mile lead acid powered EVs at ~2 cents per mile are right around the corner with those rolling shells.

The auto industry builds inefficient cars for two reasons. Every inefficient car drives up the price of gasoline/oil because the stuff is incredibly inelastic, and when gas does go to $6+/gal, they'll be able to make "breakthroughs" in automobile efficiency.

[Mesuge]

Hey Toe,
I've heard perhaps on the EVlist or somewhere recently that actualy one specific size of NiMh Ovonics has not been part of that Chevron-Cobasys patent scam.

It should be a 30Ah model. So if you run it in paralel sub arrangement and in high voltage system -> 200-300V in ultralight car that't might be a option on the US market..

[Mesuge]

The big oil NiMH conspiracy is also described here, from the angle of allowed smaller Ovonic NiMh 30Ah packs such as for the electric bikes/scootes like Vectrix:

http://www.ei2025.org/previous_editorial.asp?e=103
http://www.zevltd.com/default.aspx?portal=1&page=63




If anyone can get a non OEM pricing from Gold Peak Batteries or other licensees for these smaller cells that would be great.

[yesplease]

That's a pack, and is likely composed of a bunch of 1/3AA 280mAh batteries, which don't fall under the licensing BS of EV sized batteries iirc. Now, the problem with packs is that bad cells can screw things up, but as long as it's tested, and a company can get bulk prices and charge ~$1000-1500/pack with a 1700 80%dod warranty, I'd rock it. Make for a great EV conversion at ~2-4 cents per mile.

[Mesuge]

The point is that these are the NiMH Ovonics, here as 1.2V@30Ah cells!!!
At least 1500cycles, 15yrs life, robust no giant BMS required etc.. Tested for years, gazillion km driven..

Which are sort of not far from the boundary of automotive application feasibility. They would work in light cars in 300V or 500V system voltage or in some lower voltage serial-paralel system..

They will certainly work in motorcycles and scooters,
that's why Vectrix is using them.

Toyota RAV EV4 and other big japanese or american EVs were using the same Ovonics in the form of bigger 95Ah cells which are banned from full BEV operated mode in automotive application by the e.v.i.l. oilies-bushevics at least till January 2015..

[kolm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'T')hat's precisely why aerodynamics should be significantly improved so we can shove a big fucking V8 into a midsize car and allow people to still get 35+ mpg while allowing 0-60 mph < 5 seconds. And we could also have 80 mpg midsize cars with diesels that still do 0-60 mph in 11 seconds.

[Mesuge]

Please enlight me how ICE based AUDI A2 has any relevance to that clearly executed demise of the EV programe in the US by conservative branch of the auto industry, the oilies, and their cronies in the fed. government like Card, Cheney and Bush.. ???

There were big waiting lists for EVs in Calif.

Have you ever had the the opportunity to drive or take a ride in EV?

[kolm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'P')lease enlight me how ICE based AUDI A2 has any relevance to that clearly executed demise of the EV programe in the US by conservative branch of the auto industry, the oilies, and their cronies in the fed. government like Card, Cheney and Bush.. ???`

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e had. Audi produced a 3l/100km car (which is around 80mpg, if I calculated correctly), the A2, 1.2l. It was and still is leading in reliability statistics (google for "Pannenstatistik, ADAC"), it had c_w value of 0.25, it was quite affordable, 5 doors, aluminium-based chassis, won several awards, and was dropped by Audi in 2005 because people simply didn't want to buy it, compaining that it would be "ugly".

There is more to this problem than just the evil car companies.

[kolm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e had. Audi produced a 3l/100km car (which is around 80mpg, if I calculated correctly), the A2, 1.2l. It was and still is leading in reliability statistics (google for "Pannenstatistik, ADAC"), it had c_w value of 0.25, it was quite affordable, 5 doors, aluminium-based chassis, won several awards, and was dropped by Audi in 2005 because people simply didn't want to buy it, compaining that it would be "ugly".

There is more to this problem than just the evil car companies.

[gg3]

Just as I was about to throw up my hands over the $5 bellypan and the idiot beancounter who nixed it, and call for putting a government engineer in there to say "no you don't!" and order the bellypan re-attached....

...along comes TC with the necessary reminder: deregulate the small auto makers. YES!!!

Never add regulations when subtracting them and letting market forces go to work will do the job equally well or better.

We already have tax and regulatory relief in other industries where the national interest (or some porker's snout in the right feeding trough) justifies it.

So here's a practical question:

How would we structure the deregulation incentives? For example how many cars per year before an auto maker is moved to the "regular" category and subjected to regular regulation? What level of fuel efficiency to trade off for what level of deregulation? And how far do we want to go in terms of cutting back on safety standard related regulation?

There are plenty of older cars still on the road that wouldn't meet modern crash tests and so on, but no one is calling for taking them off the road. So somewhere there is a compromise point, for example "approximately equivalent to an old VW beetle." Insurance rates for these cars would probably be higher, if you want full coverage for passengers in a crash; but liability coverage for damage to others' vehicles (and passengers) wouldn't go up significantly.

Perhaps we need an "experimental vehicles" category for these? And of course there should be some kind of disclosure to prospective buyers, to give them an informed choice.

On the other hand, as Zap Motors figured out, 3 wheels makes it a motorcycle, so there is a basis for accessing at least part of the market.

In any case, a deregulated category will piss off the majors and force them to compete for real. And when those small automakers go IPO, there will be plenty of profit for investors. Win-win solution all'round, even if it gives the majors indigestion for a few years.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kolm', '
')I am always suspicious about monolithic world-views. If GM canned the electric car, why should VW, say, not jump in, just to spit in GM's eye?

[Mesuge]

kolm>

1. The prevailing faction inside the GM, plus bushevics and other industrialist killed the EV in the 90's by cooperative efforts, Toe have posted tons of documenting material incl. testimonies of key players like Stan Ovchinski (inventor of NiMH) on this topic. It's just a historical fact. You can deny that WWII happened but it won't be the smartest thing to do..

2. In fact the players on the global automotive market are pretty much differentiated afterall.

a. the US is hellbend on SUVs and gasguzzling "performance" segment, ready for more bankcrupcies and restructuring

b. the EU manufs. are into compacts and diesels, flexfuels, CNG

c. Japanese like Toyota will have milion volume production in hybrids by 2010 across most of their fleet, not only luxury cars. If they decide to make it all plugin hybrid by 2015, most of the a/ and b/ won't be able to catch up without giant lossess in their ICE based manuf. infrustructure. And we know most of the US/EU manuf. didn't make this bold turn prior 2010..

d. Chinese? Big question, they have got the technology and the production base to mass produce EVs now. On the other hand they seemed to catch recently that madness about the 2t sedans and SUVs as well..

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') do not see a single relevant spec where the Prius prevails. I do see a (IMHO mostly irrational) plaque stating that the A2 is "subcompact", which in some mysterious way is supposed to mean the Prius can be sold for more money.