[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')How does this reconcile with you being proud of america Jack?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')Well Jack - I read both posts with care and they do not square for me.

[TreebeardsUncle]

This morning I was thinking about starting a thread called The Long Emergency Begins, but this one will do nicely. Folks around here have called me an optimist. Anyway, now that oil has consistently surpassed $80 a barrel and stayed that for weeks, is rapidly approaching $90/barrel with the November futures trading at nearly $88/barrel today, and the December future is trading at at least $85/barrel, it seems safe to say that the Long Emergencey (as Kunstler describes it) has begun. From here on out, we should expect to continue to observe the beginning of the decline of car-exclusive freeway-oriented suburban sprawl in America.

Geoff

[Kaj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')'And the symbol in the House - the fasces...Look up the history of Rome on the internet. It is well worth your time to see how they developed - and how they evolved.'

[timbo]

Don't know if Jack would entirely agree with this but a summary of his viewpoint might be:

The bad guys have usurped all power and control in the U.S.A with their "greed is good" ethos and that the consequences of the general publics acquiescence to this are about to become apparent.

Unfortunately I tend to agree with him and in fact see the problem as being global.

[rumble]

FUCK!

not the activity - just the expression signaling tears running down my cheeks knowing I am not prepared enough and that I have been sitting in front of my computer for too damn long tonight.

How in the hell am I supposed to go to bed after reading this? I don't know if I need a hug, but I def need to get out of this Bay Area, quick! (hoping to be in Canada by May 2008)

I agree with the enjoying while we can and being prepared - there's just some serious heartstrings there, ya know?

[Kaj]

The empires of Rome and America also mirror each other in one important way - they both became inherent systemic failures.

Both empires consumed beyond their means and came to depend upon ever increasing outside sources of energy to feed their cities, supply lines which they eventually could not control. In Rome's case the energy source was grain, and in Washington's case it is oil.

Rome was able to achieve what other city states at the time were incapable of, which was to support a metropolis of nearly 1 million people, at its peak. The usual peak population that a city could support itself was about 30,000, due to limits of grain supply in surrounding environs. In order to do this, Rome had to pillage virtually the entire known world of its resources, using its technologically superior army (sound familiar?) Without its vast pool of slaves and intensive farming techniques which spread across all the lands the Romans conquered, and its well-guarded supply lines from these peripheries back to Rome, the city could not have been sustained.

Once it had embarked on a program of urban expansion, it had sealed its doom. The larger the city, the more grain it needed. Its increasing militarism, totalitarianism and expansion were signs of its weakness, not its strength.

Eventually the diminishing returns of streched supply lines had their toll. Rome also suffered from a kind of 'peak soil' crisis due to its overintensive agriculture. All kind of social problems blew up. Slaves actually became too expensive to feed and house. With its currency inflated and its social fabric compromised it succumbed to a systemic collapse. After Rome was sacked, its population dropped drastically to the norm of about 30,000.

Now for those who reminisc about the glories of Rome, it must be recalled that it was largely an emprie of misery for those it encompassed, as this articles summarizes http://www.classicsunveiled.com/romel/html/slavery.html
Its self-destructive practises of immorality, decadence, cruelty eventually lead to its decline of its social fabric.

There are those that know these details, but still fantasize about the glories of Rome, and welcome America's increasing parallels with it. Who cares if America's ballooning aggression will ultimately end in a painful collpase, who cares how many people suffer - Caeser achieved immortality, right? Isn't glory of the highest importance? This sad and infantile mentality not only flies in the face of all the world's wisdom on achieving happiness, but such a fantasy is impossible in the context of today. Whilst there are clearly many parallels between the Empire of 0007 AD and of 2007 Ad, one thing has changed and that is the increased flow of information.

Caeser was able to write extensive propaganda about his conquests in his 'De Bello Gallico' knowing that his words would be remembered. His enemies were illiterate, and so too were most of his soldiers. In an ocean of silence, his voice, his self-aggrandizing viewpoint, has indeed resounded through the ages. Such circumstances will never repeat themselves. Worldwide literacy is here to stay. Wars are not (usually) reported favourably anymore. Since Caesar, since explosive developments of communications technology, criticism of aggressive hegemonies has inevitably grown stronger and stronger by statesmen, populaces, historians. (cf British Empire, Third Reich, USSR). In the ocean of criticism and exposure that follows each act of American aggression, the war propagandists of today will be muted by history, after the empire's collapse. I hardly think, in the future multipolar world to come, that China and the Middle East will thank America, with any grovelling admiration, for the advent of the refinery or pocket calculator, as classicists today marvel at the aqueduct or stylus. There is no prospect of glory for the American empire.

America's only hope, for its own strength, for its own legacy, is to learn to live within its means. Sadly it is surely too late for that now.

[Kaj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timbo', 'D')on't know if Jack would entirely agree with this but a summary of his viewpoint might be:

The bad guys have usurped all power and control in the U.S.A with their "greed is good" ethos and that the consequences of the general publics acquiescence to this are about to become apparent.

Unfortunately I tend to agree with him and in fact see the problem as being global.

[timbo]

Kaj I'm afraid you are probably right about it being too late and even if its wasn't those in power are more interested in maintaining the status quo. I've nearly finished a book called High and Dry by Guy Pearse that describes they "delay and deny" campaign being run in Australia against any kind of action on global warming.

In a weird way the situation in Atlanta almost gives me hope. I suspect if things continue getting worse then the evacuation of an entire major city may signal the death knell for the credibility of the USA's denial brigade.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')Its emblematic of fascism.

Are you a fascist?

I wouldn't normally level this at someone, as such words are often cheap flame material, but in your case your worldview genuinely, seems little different. I am asking this right now in the spirit of inquiry, I'm not trying to incite or criticise you (yet).

[Heineken]

God this is depressing.

I would never in my worst nightmares have imagined that I would be reading a discussion like this one and that it would actually be grounded in reality and not just sophomoric silliness.

What have we done to ourselves!!??

[Ayame]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'G')od this is depressing.

What have we done to ourselves!!??

[Jack]

Kaj, Timbo -

Please accept my complements on your posts. They are nuggets of pure gold.

Thank you both for your thoughts.

[holmes]

give it a rest. things will be ok for a good while. 2025 or so things will START going down hill. Just chill out, ok. jack is right. Relax we have some time. This global ponzi scam is definatley a goner tho thats for sure...

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'g')ive it a rest. things will be ok for a good while. 2025 or so things will START going down hill. Just chill out, ok. jack is right. Relax we have some time. This global ponzi scam is definatley a goner tho thats for sure...

[crapattack]

Heinken wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I would never in my worst nightmares have imagined that I would be reading a discussion like this one and that it would actually be grounded in reality and not just sophomoric silliness.

[threadbear]

CrapAttack, I don't know how easy it would be for Heineken to pack up his parents. For many people that's the problem.

Tell me more about Kaslo. Where exactly is it? I think I've looked at that area on line.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'g')ive it a rest. things will be ok for a good while. 2025 or so things will START going down hill. Just chill out, ok. jack is right. Relax we have some time. This global ponzi scam is definatley a goner tho thats for sure...

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'H')einken wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I would never in my worst nightmares have imagined that I would be reading a discussion like this one and that it would actually be grounded in reality and not just sophomoric silliness.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'O')h please. Like Jack will have that month. Right now Jack can have some 60-70% chance to get wealthy and 30-40% chance to get retired at public cost- free healthcare included, just for dumping some unarmed harmless asshole to the sewery. Missing these multiple oportunities intentionally now, he prepares to fight an unknown number of armed to the teeth warlord-wannabees/traders/peasants/ets, knowing that if he loses once he will be raped and fed to the pigs/dogs/ants/younameit? Give me a fuckin* brake.