[onlooker]

Totally agree!

[Newfie]

The elites are to humans as a queen bee is to a hive.

Neither the queen the, Elite or the worker is responsible for its position, it's all social engineering and evolution.

Humans are what we are, and the elites are part of that.

[onlooker]

Yes but with a crucial difference I do not think that the Queen Bee does things that will endanger entire hive and all the bees. Then again I do not know much about Queen Bee.

[ennui2]

Yeast in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.

This is why I think economic concerns are secondary. It's not that they're inconsequential, but moving to a no-debt economy or some perfected form of communism will not stop people from having kids above replacement, for instance. It won't stop us from destroying the soil with mechanized agriculture, etc...

This emphasis on modern villains like Goldman Sachs really ignores the broader perspective.

The earliest form of "debt" humans ever practiced was slash-and-burn agriculture, cutting into our original bounty of ecological capital.

[ennui2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'I') think the big wild card here is Global Warming. Even here on this site Cid Yama plus others like Guy Mcpherson are predicting truly calamitous events in a quite short time. Guy about 2030 and Cid I believe states 2020. Arctic Methane Emergency Group also sees disaster as imminent when Arctic is ice-free. So I do not discount this scenario as occurring faster then we may presume.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is why I think economic concerns are secondary. It's not that they're inconsequential, but moving to a no-debt economy or some perfected form of communism will not stop people from having kids above replacement, for instance. It won't stop us from destroying the soil with mechanized agriculture, etc...

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is why I think economic concerns are secondary. It's not that they're inconsequential, but moving to a no-debt economy or some perfected form of communism will not stop people from having kids above replacement, for instance. It won't stop us from destroying the soil with mechanized agriculture, etc...

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'I') would add that this current type of economic system is inherent in the very nature of capitalism which is a profit-greed derived system. We should have at some point world-wide adopted some sort of socialist-command economy type system whereby production would have been controlled and channeled mostly to the needs of people rather then wants. Alas, greed got the better of us. I would agree that this economic growth model is at the root of our trashing of the planet. I also feel it is getting very late to forestall collapse and in the end money is but paper and resources and the health of Earth or lack of is ultimately the arbiter of satisfying needs and wants not any man-made economic system as we will soon find out.

[onlooker]

Very well thought out post Ralfy. That is why the LTG simulations were very helpful in that they took into account various factors and well as their interplay with each other. It certainly can be seen that population dynamics and economic growth dynamics reinforce each other and work in a synergistic manner to create this runaway growth frenzy that we have seen in these modern times.

[davep]

I'm not suggesting the current monetary system is the root of all ecological degradation, just that if we don't address it we have no chance of addressing the ecological degradation in isolation.

[GregT]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'Y')east in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'I')'m not suggesting the current monetary system is the root of all ecological degradation, just that if we don't address it we have no chance of addressing the ecological degradation in isolation.

[GregT]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'I') don't discount the possibility of an apocalyptic methane-release. But if it seems like the future is already predetermined and there's little leeway for any of us to do much at an individual or collective level now, in the above scenario, there's REALLY no point wringing your hands over it. And so I'm excluding that from the model. Same deal with a WWIII nuclear exchange.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GregT', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'Y')east in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'Y')es but with a crucial difference I do not think that the Queen Bee does things that will endanger entire hive and all the bees. Then again I do not know much about Queen Bee.

[onlooker]

I guess it is the old adage, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" Perhaps the best way of trying at least to insure that these elites work for the benefit of all is to not give them too much power or too long a stay in power. Their role reminiscent of the elders in American Indian tribes would be to council and advice, they would be respected for their acumen as well as their integrity. If they began to display a lack of either quality they would summarily be replaced.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GregT', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'Y')east in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.

[Ibon]

You know how modern humans often put their old folks in homes. We do not venerate the old which is the flip side of consuming our grandchildren's resources.

We are not only split off from natural ecosystems in the artificial environments we live in. We are equally split off from the continuity of family and thus we feel no sense of obligation to our grand children.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'Y')ou know how modern humans often put their old folks in homes. We do not venerate the old which is the flip side of consuming our grandchildren's resources.

We are not only split off from natural ecosystems in the artificial environments we live in. We are equally split off from the continuity of family and thus we feel no sense of obligation to our grand children.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'Y')ou know how modern humans often put their old folks in homes. We do not venerate the old which is the flip side of consuming our grandchildren's resources.

We are not only split off from natural ecosystems in the artificial environments we live in. We are equally split off from the continuity of family and thus we feel no sense of obligation to our grand children.